Rumor: Ducks trying to unload a contract in order to re-sign Rakell/Lindholm

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Sojourn

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Reports are Lindholm wants 6+ and Rakell wants 4

So no it's not enough

Are we assuming that what a player asks for a player gets? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Negotiations involve a give and take from both sides, and to put it bluntly, I would not pay Rakell $4m. I don't care if he wants that or not.
 

Zegs2sendhelp

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Peter Holland sounds like that guy.

However you would need to add an asset not only because you are saving 1.9 million but you are dumping an extra year so the question is what's the asset coming with Stoner?
I actually don't mind this one bit pending the add...I'd guess someone around a 2nd maybe 3rd or prospect of similar value
 

Exit Dose

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Source? ...and how much is it being raised? How much are Lindholm and Rakel willing to sign for long term? Unless you have this information or can quote it from a source, you're making assumptions.

Rather than getting wound up in your needing to prove your correctness and other's lack there of, I encourage you to reread my post. A question mark is not making a statement.

After you pointed out I was making assumptions, then went on to editorialize. I never said I wasn't, only that you were making assumptions as well. You asked to explain and I believe I have.

Various cap sites that have us with around 8.5 million? That even 2 million from a Stoner trade would put us past the point where it's expected to sign those two? I mean, I suppose Rakell could change his mind and ask for 5 million, but he has yet to show that he's anywhere near that in terms of value. Silfverberg had more of a resume than Rakell did and he couldn't even pull down 4 million, let alone more than that.

I guess 'I'm just asking questions' is an acceptable answer. There were no question marks here, BTW:

I don't think you know their budget any better than I.

Considering we've been hashing this out on our board for the better part of a year, I don't think it's far fetched to state that I and the others here have a better handle on this than you.

The Ducks are definitely in a spot. They have to make a move if they don't give out a bridge deal. No one is denying that, but adding a second deal to the mix to get the signings done is something only you seems to feel is necessary to close the deal.
 

Exit Dose

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Are we assuming that what a player asks for a player gets? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Negotiations involve a give and take from both sides, and to put it bluntly, I would not pay Rakell $4m. I don't care if he wants that or not.

Yep, we see these stories about what a player is demanding on these boards nearly every month. The reliable bet is that the real number will be south of those demands.
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

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Are we assuming that what a player asks for a player gets? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Negotiations involve a give and take from both sides, and to put it bluntly, I would not pay Rakell $4m. I don't care if he wants that or not.

I don't think he gets that, but I think Lindholm gets close to what he wants
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

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I actually don't mind this one bit pending the add...I'd guess someone around a 2nd maybe 3rd or prospect of similar value

I don't know a ton about your prospect pool so who would that be? I mean I know your top prospects it I wouldn't expect them so what kind of prospect are we looking at?

If it's a pick I want a 2nd
 

Sojourn

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I don't think he gets that, but I think Lindholm gets close to what he wants

He might get close to it, but if Lindholm gets slightly less than that, and Rakell gets less than $4m, why can't Anaheim fit them?

You made an absolute statement that it isn't enough. It seems to me that if you allow for some wiggle room in what they end up getting, that it could be.
 

dkollidas

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Nov 18, 2010
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Considering we've been hashing this out on our board for the better part of a year, I don't think it's far fetched to state that I and the others here have a better handle on this than you.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but you believe that because you've discussed the internal budget situation for longer you have a better idea of what the internal budget is?

It's been stated plainly by Murray that he would be given some Lee way, but he was NOT specific.

So to simply claim that because you've discussed said internal budget for longer, with no idea of specifics, means you have a better idea of what it is, is just false. The budget might be to the cap, it could be $69M or 71M, none of us know for certain. So to claim that because you've been discussing a topic, of which details have not been released, is quite absurd.

It'd be like saying that I know NHL 18th will release on September 5th because EA said they want it to release earlier next year, and I know that it usually releases on a Tuesday in September. Doesn't mean I'm right, and if you said the 12th, or someone else said August 29, they have just as good a chance of being right about it as I do.

Same goes for an internal budget. That is a number kept within the organization. You have no better idea of what it will be than anyone else.
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

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He might get close to it, but if Lindholm gets slightly less than that, and Rakell gets less than $4m, why can't Anaheim fit them?

You made an absolute statement that it isn't enough. It seems to me that if you allow for some wiggle room in what they end up getting, that it could be.

All I hear from you guys is about how the ducks are a budget team they aren't a cap team, according to your fan base their budget is about 7 million below the cap which this season makes their budget about 66 million.

If that's true they have about 500K in budget space so someone needs to go.

But even if they were a cap team if Rakell wants 4 million and Lindholm wants 6+ million let's call it 6.5 That means that combined they want -10.5 million

even if you were a cap team you still only have 7.5 million in space

That means that even if you were a cap team you would need to clear about 3 million but probably closer to 4.5 because you want to have a cushion for injuries, call ups etc.

Either way you look at this someone needs to go preferably in the next couple days.
 

xxreact9

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All I hear from you guys is about how the ducks are a budget team they aren't a cap team, according to your fan base their budget is about 7 million below the cap which this season makes their budget about 66 million.

If that's true they have about 500K in budget space so someone needs to go.

But even if they were a cap team if Rakell wants 4 million and Lindholm wants 6+ million let's call it 6.5 That means that combined they want -10.5 million

even if you were a cap team you still only have 7.5 million in space

That means that even if you were a cap team you would need to clear about 3 million but probably closer to 4.5 because you want to have a cushion for injuries, call ups etc.

Either way you look at this someone needs to go preferably in the next couple days.

This is very untrue. And the GM has gone on record saying he has extra spending room for this particular season.

I don't see the internal cap as an issue here at all. Management isn't going to lose a good player over a few million bucks, especially when they have some contracts coming off the books next year.
 

Exit Dose

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I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but you believe that because you've discussed the internal budget situation for longer you have a better idea of what the internal budget is?

It's been stated plainly by Murray that he would be given some Lee way, but he was NOT specific.

So to simply claim that because you've discussed said internal budget for longer, with no idea of specifics, means you have a better idea of what it is, is just false. The budget might be to the cap, it could be $69M or 71M, none of us know for certain. So to claim that because you've been discussing a topic, of which details have not been released, is quite absurd.

It'd be like saying that I know NHL 18th will release on September 5th because EA said they want it to release earlier next year, and I know that it usually releases on a Tuesday in September. Doesn't mean I'm right, and if you said the 12th, or someone else said August 29, they have just as good a chance of being right about it as I do.

Same goes for an internal budget. That is a number kept within the organization. You have no better idea of what it will be than anyone else.

You're confusing two different things here. There's the space needed to sign our RFAs, which is where the need to trade two players spun off of, and then there's the internal cap, which was brought up later. If you look back at this conversation the latter WAS addressed by me when I brought up the salary details of Bernier's contract, and pointed to the fact that there are expected trades and loss of salary through the expansion draft. That combined with two million or so should put the cap in the realistic range to sign those two, as opposed to the current 8.5 million.

You're also forgetting something about the former. We have the specifics of last season's budget to operate off of. We also know that the owners cleared the signing of Hagelin for 4 million for the next three seasons and that they ditched Palmieri because they weren't going to have the cash to keep him and the other RFAs. That money is no longer on the books with Perron's departure(we swapped his salary out with Hagelin's). We also know that contract structure is used by every team in this league to work around budget constraints. Does this tell us the absolute exact number that it is? No, and I didn't claim that it did, nor have I ever. But looking at all the data along with the statements made by people in the team can be used to get an idea of what range we're looking at and what means they have to wiggle into that.

That is why I made that statement. I do not believe that this Rangers fan has been sitting around studying all this like we have. That is not a meaningless boast. I gave him the opportunity to expand upon the assumptions that he was making. I've explained the basis of mine. Mine are informed. Now he can show how his are.
 
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Absurdity

light switch connoisseur
Jul 6, 2012
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Trade Fowler to Boston for Spooner plus
With the way Spooner has played this preseason, it may look like that ship has sailed amongst Bruins fans. If it would have got done, it would have a while ago. It seems like Sweeney regards Spooner in the same ilk as Pastrnak in regards to their youth and what they both bring to the Bruins, skill set and speed. Also, both Carlo and O'Gara stepped it up this preseason and both may win a spot on the Bruins' defense.
 

dkollidas

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You're confusing two different things here. There's the space needed to sign our RFAs, which is where the need to trade two players spun off of, and then there's the internal cap, which was brought up later. If you look back at this conversation the latter WAS addressed by me when I brought up the salary details of Bernier's contract, and pointed to the fact that there are expected trades and loss of salary through the expansion draft.

You're also forgetting something. We have the specifics of last season's budget to operate off of. We also know that the owners cleared the signing of Hagelin for 4 million for the next three seasons and that they ditched Palmieri because they weren't going to have the cash to keep him and the other RFAs. That money is no longer on the books with Perron's departure(we swapped his salary out with Hagelin's). We also know that contract structure is used by every team in this league to work around budget constraints. Does this tell us the absolute exact number that it is? No, and I didn't claim that it did, nor have I ever.

But looking at all the data along with the statements made by people in the team can be used to get an idea of what range we're looking at and what means they have to wiggle into that. That is why I made that statement. I do not believe that this Rangers fan has been sitting around studying all this like we have. That is not meaningless.

I'll admit, I didn't quite notice it was more of a cap situation discussion. And you are correct that a contract like Bernier's saves on the actual salary. But what about Getzlaf, Perry & Kesler? Perry makes $10M & costs $1.35M in real dollars than the cap hit. Getzlaf, $1M extra, Kesler $1M extra. Altogether the Ducks cash is about $1M above their cap (according to General Fanager). But the expansion draft is year away, and who's to say a player on a cheap contract isn't taken as opposed to a more expensive player.

We're taking about this year's budget. And I understand you're discussing a more long term structure. But at the same time teams/businesses/governments/ tend to have a strict annual budget first, with a long term structure in mind.

The budget last season was also roughly $66M in real cash spent. Also, Palmieri was let go, and Hagelin was brought in the very same day, so you can't say they had money set aside for Palmieri and Hagelin, it was more that the money for Palmieri was used for Hagelin, and at a later point Hagelin was swapped (and so was the money) for Perron, who, as you said left via UFA. Regardless they're still spending the same amount, already, as they had last season.

My thing is, how much more will they spend? You have no way of knowing that number any better than I or anyone else, and maybe they don't know yet themselves. If Lindholm and Rakell combine for $7M in cap hit, they're right at the cap ceiling, and their actual cash salary will likely be close.

All I'm saying is the evidence st this point can really point either way, but the inside guys (McKenzie and others) seem to think the Ducks are looking to still make a trade, namely, to save cash.
 

Exit Dose

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I'll admit, I didn't quite notice it was more of a cap situation discussion. And you are correct that a contract like Bernier's saves on the actual salary. But what about Getzlaf, Perry & Kesler? Perry makes $10M & costs $1.35M in real dollars than the cap hit. Getzlaf, $1M extra, Kesler $1M extra. Altogether the Ducks cash is about $1M above their cap (according to General Fanager). But the expansion draft is year away, and who's to say a player on a cheap contract isn't taken as opposed to a more expensive player.

We're taking about this year's budget. And I understand you're discussing a more long term structure. But at the same time teams/businesses/governments/ tend to have a strict annual budget first, with a long term structure in mind.

The budget last season was also roughly $66M in real cash spent. Also, Palmieri was let go, and Hagelin was brought in the very same day, so you can't say they had money set aside for Palmieri and Hagelin, it was more that the money for Palmieri was used for Hagelin, and at a later point Hagelin was swapped (and so was the money) for Perron, who, as you said left via UFA. Regardless they're still spending the same amount, already, as they had last season.

My thing is, how much more will they spend? You have no way of knowing that number any better than I or anyone else, and maybe they don't know yet themselves. If Lindholm and Rakell combine for $7M in cap hit, they're right at the cap ceiling, and their actual cash salary will likely be close.

All I'm saying is the evidence st this point can really point either way, but the inside guys (McKenzie and others) seem to think the Ducks are looking to still make a trade, namely, to save cash.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that they had money set aside for Palmieri and Hagelin. I was saying that they had money set aside for Hagelin and the other RFAs(Rakell, Vatanen, and Lindholm), though it's obvious that some of that was expected to be accounted for with some sort of hockey trade involving one of their defensemen. I wasn't saying that it included Palmieri.

As for what players would be targeted in the expansion draft it comes down to this. Anaheim has six defensemen that come into this without any moves: Bieksa(who they have to protect or buyout - current smoke is around a buyout, they already asked him to waive his NMC), Fowler, Vatanen, Lindholm, Despres, and Manson. They also have to protect Getzlaf, Kesler, Perry, and Cogliano. It's also expected that to have any shot of contention that Rakell and Silfverberg are going to fit into that protection, too. Anaheim's greatest depth is on its blue line, with Theodore, Larsson, Montour, and further down in the system Wellinski and Petterssen. For forwards it was just Ritchie, though Sorensen sneaking on might give them some flexibility, but it's important to note that no one on the team was expecting him to be ready yet. Gibson is going to be protected. Bernier's contract is over at year's end and doesn't matter for this. So, out of what's likely to be exposed, the defense is going to offer the juiciest targets, particularly when you look around the league and see the coverage teams have. Finally, it's also clear that they weren't going to have the budget, even with expansion, to keep around the combination of Lindholm, Vatanen, and Fowler(at the end of his deal) - so it's clear that one of them would be going in the short term to maximize gains while slipping past losing one of those three in expansion. When you take a look at the Ducks priorities to remain competitive and where they can eat a loss, you end up with Anaheim likely shedding a defenseman. So the question comes down to which of Despres or Manson gets exposed to the expansion draft. Now, it's possible that they could protect Despres with that spot, but given that he was brought in to be paired with Fowler and Manson's is stronger with Lindholm, that seems really unlikely. Which means you'd have 4 million of salary coming off at year's end, provided he isn't moved before then. There really isn't another player that would be exposed that would be any more enticing. I don't see anyone really dying to pick up Boll or Wagner. I may have left something out there, but this is essentially what we've been working through on our boards, as I assume every other fan base is doing on theirs.

The owners have also stated that the team has already come close to profitability and that the expansion fees for Vegas are also putting a surge of cash into the coffers. Businesses and teams will operate at short term losses for long term gain. Tanking the team by taking scraps back for Fowler or someone else in a second trade doesn't really help the team's value, and rolling over budget for a month or two while a hockey trade is worked out isn't going to put the team out. This is an unusual year for every team. The normal rules are going to exist more as guidelines in the short term to make things work out to their best benefit in the long term with expansion.

As for the timing of Getzlaf, Kesler, and Perry's higher salaries, remember that Rakell and Lindholm's salary structures can be worked around that. It's entirely possible that you hit your budget marks even if you're slightly over in the first half of the season.
 

dkollidas

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To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that they had money set aside for Palmieri and Hagelin. I was saying that they had money set aside for Hagelin and the other RFAs(Rakell, Vatanen, and Lindholm), though it's obvious that some of that was expected to be accounted for with some sort of hockey trade involving one of their defensemen. I wasn't saying that it included Palmieri.

As for what players would be targeted in the expansion draft it comes down to this. Anaheim has six defensemen that come into this without any moves: Bieksa(who they have to protect or buyout - current smoke is around a buyout, they already asked him to waive his NMC), Fowler, Vatanen, Lindholm, Despres, and Manson. They also have to protect Getzlaf, Kesler, Perry, and Cogliano. It's also expected that to have any shot of contention that Rakell and Silfverberg are going to fit into that protection, too. Anaheim's greatest depth is on its blue line, with Theodore, Larsson, Montour, and further down in the system Wellinski and Petterssen. For forwards it was just Ritchie, though Sorensen sneaking on might give them some flexibility, but it's important to note that no one on the team was expecting him to be ready yet. Gibson is going to be protected. Bernier's contract is over at year's end and doesn't matter for this. So, out of what's likely to be exposed, the defense is going to offer the juiciest targets, particularly when you look around the league and see the coverage teams have. Finally, it's also clear that they weren't going to have the budget, even with expansion, to keep around the combination of Lindholm, Vatanen, and Fowler(at the end of his deal) - so it's clear that one of them would be going in the short term to maximize gains while slipping past losing one of those three in expansion. When you take a look at the Ducks priorities to remain competitive and where they can eat a loss, you end up with Anaheim likely shedding a defenseman. So the question comes down to which of Despres or Manson gets exposed to the expansion draft. Now, it's possible that they could protect Despres with that spot, but given that he was brought in to be paired with Fowler and Manson's is stronger with Lindholm, that seems really unlikely. Which means you'd have 4 million of salary coming off at year's end, provided he isn't moved before then. There really isn't another player that would be exposed that would be any more enticing. I don't see anyone really dying to pick up Boll or Wagner. I may have left something out there, but this is essentially what we've been working through on our boards, as I assume every other fan base is doing on theirs.

The owners have also stated that the team has already come close to profitability and that the expansion fees for Vegas are also putting a surge of cash into the coffers. Businesses and teams will operate at short term losses for long term gain. Tanking the team by taking scraps back for Fowler or someone else in a second trade doesn't really help the team's value, and rolling over budget for a month or two while a hockey trade is worked out isn't going to put the team out. This is an unusual year for every team. The normal rules are going to exist more as guidelines in the short term to make things work out to their best benefit in the long term with expansion.

As for the timing of Getzlaf, Kesler, and Perry's higher salaries, remember that Rakell and Lindholm's salary structures can be worked around that. It's entirely possible that you hit your budget marks even if you're slightly over in the first half of the season.

I see what you mean about the Hagelin thing. And you are right that the expansion draft changes things for every team. The only thing I'm saying is we don't really "know" anything about how the people in the room view their situation and how much room they have/need to make. We can guess, as everyone is, but it's anyone's guess.
 

Exit Dose

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I see what you mean about the Hagelin thing. And you are right that the expansion draft changes things for every team. The only thing I'm saying is we don't really "know" anything about how the people in the room view their situation and how much room they have/need to make. We can guess, as everyone is, but it's anyone's guess.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. We don't know what the exact number is, but you can circle in where they are heading by looking at what moves have been made, signings, statements, past structure and make an educated guess about where that likely is around. I don't buy that this Rangers fan is doing that based on the questions they're asking. I never claimed at any point that we know specifically where it's at. I said that we likely have a better idea of what's going on with the Ducks than fans from other fan bases. That's not a crazy claim to make.

Considering that they signed Vermette to a two-year, 1.75 million dollar deal just a few weeks ago, they sure don't seem to be panicking about how treacherous their budget is. It's one thing to think that they misjudged a move a year or two ago, but it's absurd to think that they didn't know those targets a month ago after spending the summer in negotiations with RFAs.
 

robbieboy3686

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Guys stop bickering our billionaire owners told BM to chill out, we can spend to the cap ONLY this year ( /!: that BM better not f up giving NTC to old vets anymore.
 

wintersej

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Nov 26, 2011
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With the way Spooner has played this preseason, it may look like that ship has sailed amongst Bruins fans. If it would have got done, it would have a while ago. It seems like Sweeney regards Spooner in the same ilk as Pastrnak in regards to their youth and what they both bring to the Bruins, skill set and speed. Also, both Carlo and O'Gara stepped it up this preseason and both may win a spot on the Bruins' defense.

Want to echo this. Not sure if Boston is a great option for Fowler anymore. Spooner has been a real difference maker when he is on the ice this preseason. He looks aggressive and confident and looks like he is hitting his stride in his 2nd full season.

While the Bruins can take on Fowler with no salary going out for this season, they can't afford him next season unless Spooner (or Pasta) is headed back to the Ducks. And I don't think Spooner/Pasta are going anywhere unless its a bigger fish than Fowler. Maybe if they can move out McQuaid and/or Hayes they could, but the Bruins probably don't want to be in a Ducks-like position at this time next year with Pasta and Spooner as RFAs.
 

Emerald Duck

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Dec 9, 2009
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I don't know a ton about your prospect pool so who would that be? I mean I know your top prospects it I wouldn't expect them so what kind of prospect are we looking at?

If it's a pick I want a 2nd

Since the Ducks originally waived Holland, I'm not sure they would give up a 2nd for him. I don't think Holland's value has necessarily increased since that time.

Probably Stoner +3rd pick for Holland if the Ducks want to go in that direction.
 

dubplatepressure

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Jul 10, 2007
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Since the Ducks originally waived Holland, I'm not sure they would give up a 2nd for him. I don't think Holland's value has necessarily increased since that time.

Probably Stoner +3rd pick for Holland if the Ducks want to go in that direction.

Did Holland not get traded to Toronto for Blacker and a couple picks? Don't think Stoner + 3rd even does it...
 

vipernsx

Flatus Expeller
Sep 4, 2005
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Considering we've been hashing this out on our board for the better part of a year, I don't think it's far fetched to state that I and the others here have a better handle on this than you.

As opposed to you, who seems to be okay assuming Anaheim has no space? What's the difference?

How is his assumption different from yours? Actually, never mind, it is different from yours, because the owners have actually made it clear they are willing to spend more.

When did I say they don't have cap space or that the owners aren't willing to pay players?

My point is this and let me be ABSOLUTELY clear. But first, forgive me for pontificating as I feel it necessary to recap a thread you're unwilling to read my posts in, even more than ExitDose:

The post by Pierre Mcguire made last month, which started this thread, indicates the Ducks want to move a contract out to resign their RFAs. A week later they waive Clayton Stoner.

I then posted my opinion that the Ducks were begging someone to take his contract. I don't have a crystal ball to see into the future and without knowing the specific financial details, I posed a couple of questions describing some possible scenarios. Because MONEY is the limiting factor in some way shape or form to all of these scenarios, I assert and continue to assert that money is the problem.

Now, it appears to me that my comments of "Money is the Problem" seems to have been interpreted by some as "The Owners Aren't Willing to Pay". Which, while it may be true, is not what I've said in this thread at all.

What I have said in this thread is that when questioned about my assumptions, parties have then followed with their assumptions about the fiscal situations at hand. While I believe they have made assumptions too. Apparently their assumptions are justifiable and others are not, because while there is still no first hand knowledge or source directly supporting their assertion, they've become an expert on the scenario greater than others because, well, you've been talking about it on your board. So stick with that, but while you're at it, talk about time travel on your board too and report back what you guys figure out because if I had the crystal ball thing, this would all have been avoided. :cheers:
 
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