Dubois

[johnjm22]

I appreciate all the strawmanning.

 

[Herby]

@johnjm22 has been saying this for years regarding MR. Good poster with several good takes bit this has always been silly.

I think sometimes the mythology does get a little bloated with the player by many here, and maybe he's overcompensating a bit for that. When people say, "He was a big part of 2 cup winning teams" or "We wouldn't have either cup without him", it makes me wonder if anyone actually watched the 2014 playoffs or forget just how bad it was, because it was really really bad, especially trying to keep up in the defensive zone. It was extremely tough to watch on TV vs. San Jose and even tougher to watch in person vs. Chicago. I've told this story before but I remember being in Chicago for all those games that year and Queneville attacking that line, keeping Kane out there for back to back shifts when Sutter sent out Clifford-Richards-Lewis, and it was apparent to everyone in the building who the mark at the table was in regards to that line. This is not hyperbole, but other than goons like Ivanans and Grimson, I don't know if I ever remember a Kings player struggling that much to keep up. Losing a foot-race to the goal in Game 5 with Michal Handzus, who at that point was one of the slowest players in the league was just sad to see. I could not believe when DL chose to not use the CBO on him after the season, I thought it was a total no-brainer.

I gave my views on him as a player in 2012 in my original post, specifically that they weren't winning with Stoll as a 2C, but it's also fair to mention the team was out of the playoffs before the Carter trade, and I do think that was the more significant ex-Flyer, so I agree with him if that is the point he's trying to make. But I also think it's correct to say that he was a really big part of that 2012 team, both with his tangible on-ice play and in other areas such as setting the physical tone vs. Vancouver.

And to get this on PLD, there were a lot of nights this season for the Kings where he looked a lot like 2014 Richards, where he looked like he was playing with a 9-iron while towing a piano. I know the general belief here is that PLD is just a lazy slacker, who doesn't care, and that is probably true, but it never before effected his ability to be a good 2nd liner at the NHL level until this season. I am worried that this could just be a guy entering a premature (based on age) decline that there is no coming back from. And it may not be the concussions that cause the decline to go from 0 to 60 like it did Richards, but just his lack of compete. And if PLD is entering a similar decline to Richards its going to be a disaster for the Kings with the contract committed to him, it's really going to hamstring the guy who takes over this mess from Blake, because the contract is so long it's going to carry over into extensions for guys drafted in 2025 and 2026 in addition to QB and Clarke and anyone else who may emerge from this group (Laferriere, Turcotte etc).

 

[King'sPawn]

*Blames Richards for making the team worse, ignoring correlation =/= causation
*Accuses others of strawmanning

 

[bland]

I understand why people like the narrative. It sounds epic. A true leader coming in to rally the team. Change the culture. Play with heart. So romantic.

He fulfilled the role of a second line center very well before the injury. It wasn't enough to move the needle though. I think it's pretty clear what the main difference maker was that year.

Change doesn't happen overnight, and knowing how to build and maintain momentum doesn't come organically. The things that make you a threat to win in the playoffs aren't always the same things that get you through the course of a season.

You weren't winning the SC with Stoll as the 2C (don't get mad if you're reading this JT_Dutch!), it's the same issue as the Kings have in this era of the team with Danault.

I think it's ludicrous when people try and give him any credit in 2014 when he was the worst player on the team, but in 2012 he was an important piece, especially in the playoffs where he scored some timely goals and provided physicality. He really wasn't close to as good as he was in Philly and in hindsight there were warning signs of the incoming collapse, but he still provided a couple of years of good enough 2C play to get the Kings to the promised land in 2012 and pretty close in 2013, that wasn't happening witn high-and-wide Stoll or 20 year old Schenn.

Shocking.

The games are all on YouTube, Herby. Richards was strong against San Jose (far and away the best King in game 7 of that series) strong against Anaheim and made several key plays in the Final. The only series in which he wasn't effective was Chicago.

Nowhere near the "worst" player, not even remotely close.

 

[AbsentMojo]

This is the kind of thing I remember most about MR... he wasnt going to entertain any bullshit from that clown roster in Van and that set a nice tone for the rest of the series. Sure its an intangible.. but its a tangible intangible (doing a yogi berra here)

 

[Schmooley]

This is the kind of thing I remember most about MR... he wasnt going to entertain any bullshit from that clown roster in Van and that set a nice tone for the rest of the series. Sure its an intangible.. but its a tangible intangible (doing a yogi berra here)

The thing that sucks is thats a penalty on Richards in todays game. That looks like the play in the playoffs when Dubois got called for elbowing Draisaitl or something when he was really diving just like Kesler.

 

[johnjm22]

I'm biased.

A lot of the posters to who overhype Richards also tend to be the ones that diminish Kopitar/Brown/Doughty. (Maybe I'm delusional?)

So I enjoy shitting on their hero

Richards was important to the cup run and the Kings struggling wasn't his fault (I never said otherwise, stop strawmaning me), but if he was as tectonically important as others have implied the team probably would've actually improved.

Also, the Kings undervalued Simmonds. I mostly blame TM for that, but that's whole other story.

At least we can all agree that Dubois sucks. I'd take the worst version of MR over PLD any day. With Richards you can respect what he did and understand why he's struggling. PLD has no excuse. MR likely had years of compounded injuries.

 

[bland]

I'm biased.

A lot of the posters to who overhype Richards also tend to be the ones that diminish Kopitar/Brown/Doughty. (Maybe I'm delusional?)

So I enjoy shitting on their hero

Richards was important to the cup run and the Kings struggling wasn't his fault (I never said otherwise, stop strawmaning me), but if he was as tectonically important as others have implied the team probably would've actually improved.

Also, the Kings undervalued Simmonds. I mostly blame TM for that, but that's whole other story.

At least we can all agree that Dubois sucks. I'd take the worst version of MR over PLD any day. With Richards you can respect what he did and understand why he's struggling. PLD has no excuse. MR likely had years of compounded injuries.

They DID improve by unfathomable proportions.

The Kings went 10-1 in playoff series with Mike Richards, with two Cups. No other metric matters.

 

[johnjm22]

They DID improve by unfathomable proportions.

The Kings went 10-1 in playoff series with Mike Richards, with two Cups. No other metric matters.

They didn't improve until Sutter and Carter.

 

[MonkeysUncle]

The sad thing is there's no way the Kings can move him unless it's a full-on buyout. Or if they take an even worse contract that another team has no problem moving with no retention going either way, and one Dubois can agree with.

I think at this point , management has to understand that this as much if not more their creation. You have to put him in a position to succeed and then if after next year it's still the same , everyone should be gone and I hope that includes Luc.

 

[Statto]

I understand why people like the narrative. It sounds epic. A true leader coming in to rally the team. Change the culture. Play with heart. So romantic.

He fulfilled the role of a second line center very well before the injury. It wasn't enough to move the needle though. I think it's pretty clear what the main difference maker was that year.

It wasn’t one thing. It was a collection of pieces coming together and if one of them was absent we probably don’t win. Richards, Carter and Sutter were all critical… (so were the promoted guys).

 

[chris kontos]

Our goaltender that year was above average...

 

[Trash Panda]

This is the kind of thing I remember most about MR... he wasnt going to entertain any bullshit from that clown roster in Van and that set a nice tone for the rest of the series. Sure its an intangible.. but its a tangible intangible (doing a yogi berra here)

Rick was all over Kessler in that series, and it’s was beautiful to watch.

 

[KINGS17]

Our goaltender that year was above average...

Slightly:

 

[BigKing]

I think sometimes the mythology does get a little bloated with the player by many here, and maybe he's overcompensating a bit for that. When people say, "He was a big part of 2 cup winning teams" or "We wouldn't have either cup without him", it makes me wonder if anyone actually watched the 2014 playoffs or forget just how bad it was, because it was really really bad, especially trying to keep up in the defensive zone. It was extremely tough to watch on TV vs. San Jose and even tougher to watch in person vs. Chicago. I've told this story before but I remember being in Chicago for all those games that year and Queneville attacking that line, keeping Kane out there for back to back shifts when Sutter sent out Clifford-Richards-Lewis, and it was apparent to everyone in the building who the mark at the table was in regards to that line. This is not hyperbole, but other than goons like Ivanans and Grimson, I don't know if I ever remember a Kings player struggling that much to keep up. Losing a foot-race to the goal in Game 5 with Michal Handzus, who at that point was one of the slowest players in the league was just sad to see. I could not believe when DL chose to not use the CBO on him after the season, I thought it was a total no-brainer.

I gave my views on him as a player in 2012 in my original post, specifically that they weren't winning with Stoll as a 2C, but it's also fair to mention the team was out of the playoffs before the Carter trade, and I do think that was the more significant ex-Flyer, so I agree with him if that is the point he's trying to make. But I also think it's correct to say that he was a really big part of that 2012 team, both with his tangible on-ice play and in other areas such as setting the physical tone vs. Vancouver.

And to get this on PLD, there were a lot of nights this season for the Kings where he looked a lot like 2014 Richards, where he looked like he was playing with a 9-iron while towing a piano. I know the general belief here is that PLD is just a lazy slacker, who doesn't care, and that is probably true, but it never before effected his ability to be a good 2nd liner at the NHL level until this season. I am worried that this could just be a guy entering a premature (based on age) decline that there is no coming back from. And it may not be the concussions that cause the decline to go from 0 to 60 like it did Richards, but just his lack of compete. And if PLD is entering a similar decline to Richards its going to be a disaster for the Kings with the contract committed to him, it's really going to hamstring the guy who takes over this mess from Blake, because the contract is so long it's going to carry over into extensions for guys drafted in 2025 and 2026 in addition to QB and Clarke and anyone else who may emerge from this group (Laferriere, Turcotte etc).

You know I was with you on using the buyout because Richards had seriously declined and the length/numbers left on the contract obviously didn't make sense.

That said, all we do know for sure is that they won with him and it took seven games in the first three rounds. Since those series went seven, things like fighting Couture at the end of Game 6 where Couture broke his hand and then, most importantly, digging in at the end of Game 1 in Anaheim to get the primary assist on Gaborik's game-tying goal in the dying seconds become even more important.

This doesn't take into account the intangibles, which are a huge part of the Richards "mystique" to begin with. Of course, intangibles are something that aren't valued as much by some posters with the following poster being one of those based on his view of the Tkachuk/Doughty incident and his belief that the Kings would have won the Cups anyways with Schenn in place of Richards.

I'm biased.

A lot of the posters to who overhype Richards also tend to be the ones that diminish Kopitar/Brown/Doughty. (Maybe I'm delusional?)

So I enjoy shitting on their hero

Richards was important to the cup run and the Kings struggling wasn't his fault (I never said otherwise, stop strawmaning me), but if he was as tectonically important as others have implied the team probably would've actually improved.

Also, the Kings undervalued Simmonds. I mostly blame TM for that, but that's whole other story.

At least we can all agree that Dubois sucks. I'd take the worst version of MR over PLD any day. With Richards you can respect what he did and understand why he's struggling. PLD has no excuse. MR likely had years of compounded injuries.

A lot of time has passed, but I believe your point on this was that simply keeping Simmonds and Schenn would have led to the Cups regardless. You're still bringing up Simmonds--and I wish he would have been a King his entire career--but I thought you believed the Kings would have still won with Schenn--at his young age--being in the lineup over Richards. If that is true, it does kind of take a shit on Richards.

I think part of the struggles of the 2012 regular season was a group of young guys struggling with having actual expectations. Richards was actually playing well until the Bergenheim concussion so he was pulling his weight.

I love Simmonds, but they seemed to have some concerns about him and Doughty together. If we want to get into the hypotheticals of what happens and doesn't if the trade doesn't take place, we can toss in the potential of off-ice issues for #8.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The team was worse after the Richards trade.

It’s time to put down the keyboard for a while, John.

 

[bland]

They didn't improve until Sutter and Carter.

Based on what?

 

[Kingfan1967]

Back to Dubois, if they can do a 1/3 buyout LA has to do that , a 2/3 14 year dead cap is unacceptable. Dubois hasn't shown any reason to keep him at that contract.

 

[Lt Dan]

They didn't improve until Sutter and Carter.

Everyone on the 2012 credits Richards for inspiring the team and getting them "to flip the switch"

 

[chris kontos]

Just heard a brief take from forner nhl coach bruce boudreau, former nhl goaltender martin biron and kouleas stating LA needs to buyout pld at 1/3 "theyd be crazy not to". But not at 2/3.
Boudreau said he didnt and wont live up to that conntract.
HELLO

 

[DoktorJeep]

Next season, of all the cap hit and money spent, the cash sent to Mike Richards is the only dollars that mean one single goddamn thing to any real Kings fan.

Big Dick Rick costs $4.4M between now and July 2032. Less than one year of QB’s next contract. Far less overall than the money flushed down the toilet to Petersen, Kovalchuk, Dion, et. al.

What are we even talking about when bringing up a Richards as a failure of the previous regime in order to lessen the criticism of the current one.

 

[tny760]

Just heard a brief take from forner nhl coach bruce boudreau, former nhl goaltender martin biron and kouleas stating LA needs to buyout pld at 1/3 "theyd be crazy not to". But not at 2/3.
Boudreau said he didnt and wont live up to that conntract.
HELLO

too f***in funny

blake's never gonna live this down if PLD doesn't sort it out

 

[DoktorJeep]

Just heard a brief take from forner nhl coach bruce boudreau, former nhl goaltender martin biron and kouleas stating LA needs to buyout pld at 1/3 "theyd be crazy not to". But not at 2/3.
Boudreau said he didnt and wont live up to that conntract.
HELLO

There’s no comparable for the buyout. Its basically indefensible.

You may as well commit seppeku in front of the Microsoft Theater. Blake put his neck on the line last summer. The only question is when does regime change occur. It’s just a matter of time, so any true fan just needs to stay patient on the order of decades.

The sycophants will carry the water every opportunity they get. And the real media will bother to pay attention during the lulls in order to question the jokers in charge. Real fans will know that all it takes is for real management to get hired for their to be some real hope for a winner.

 

[BaileyFan]

Just heard a brief take from forner nhl coach bruce boudreau, former nhl goaltender martin biron and kouleas stating LA needs to buyout pld at 1/3 "theyd be crazy not to". But not at 2/3.
Boudreau said he didnt and wont live up to that conntract.
HELLO

Not as crazy as signing him to that contract in the first place. And they guys who did that are still in charge unfortunately.

 

[Surf Nutz]

It’s time to put down the keyboard for a while, John.

He uses voice to text