Drouin vs Nylander vs Ehlers

[The Great Weal]

That’s not how top 6 is defined.

It actually is how it's defined. Otherwise, Malkin would not be considered the Pens 2nd best forward or a 1st liner because he plays on a another line.

 

[biturbo19]

Where did I say any of that. You seem to be getting very worked up here. You’re basing your whole opinion on Ehlers game not being good when it comes to the game getting physical when that is completely wrong based on anyone that watches, including actual nhl analysts or any stats, while saying the player that was very easy to push off his game physically until slightly improving this past year is clearly ahead. I’m not sure how some of you posters think that this schtick isn’t obvious trolling.

You have the audacity to play the, "this guy doesn't watch players and must be trolling" routine, when thus far...this has been the sum total of your contribution to this discussion?

Love Nylander but this is clearly Ehlers.

This is blind jets hate. So typical on HF

Are you implying Nylander does?

I really have to question how much you watch these players if you’re saying that Nylander plays a more physical game than Ehlers. And even more question that this was nearly your sole reason for saying Ehlers is possibly below Drouin, while saying Nylander isn’t really much better, but is clearly better than both Ehlers and Drouin. Your whole point is clearly biased.

And this is still exactly why it’s obvious you don’t watch Ehlers, and possibly don’t even watch Nylander.

Who is actually "trolling" here?

The entirety of your argument has been, "it's clearly Ehlers" and anything else is "blind Jets hate", and "biased". There is zero substance to anything you've argued there.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Drouin wouldn't make either jets or leafs top 6 that's for sure....

 

[biturbo19]

Why do you think this is so lopsided? Not one impartial vote for Drouin.

You're positing a false premise here. Nobody is suggesting that Drouin is the best of the 3. Literally nobody. As the poll shows. But that doesn't mean he'd have zero votes for 2nd place.

Not to mention, we just had a poll on here recently wherein many were arguing Nylander is easily more valuable than Provorov. So...take HF Polls with many grains of salt in general probably. When you're an HF whipping horse, you don't win polls. It's just what you do.

That right there is the issue, if he needs to be put in exactly the perfect spot to be as good as the other two then he isn't in their category. Ehlers hasn't exactly been put in the perfect spot for most of his time with the Jets. He routinely is the after thought amongst there top wingers and gets the least amount of PP time and often the least amount of first line time. It doesn't matter, he produces at an elite level and drives play regardless. It is what separates the elite from the good.

Yes, Ehlers has suffered a bit for the chemistry and deployment needs of the team in that he doesn't tend to get the absolute top minutes of a "top line forward". But sometimes, that can be advantageous for a player like Ehlers, in that it gets him away from top matchup defence pairings and top choice checking lines. He's a very talented player, who can create a lot of offense and opportunities when he has the space to work. Playing behind a studly #1 Line isn't always a "bad thing", especially when it comes to things like efficiency metrics, P/60 and various similar and related analytics figures. Something Drouin has never really had the opportunity to do in MTL.

It's something that plays into what i'm suggesting about Ehlers in general. He often doesn't get the same attention as other Jets forwards, because the Scheifele line is the obvious and consistent focal point of defensive shutdown duties. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You want players like Ehlers who are able to generate good results in that secondary scoring role to capitalize on it. But that isn't the same as being an argument that he's purely more effective than others in a bigger role, against more robust defensive matchups. Meanwhile, i'm being told in this thread, that Ehlers is apparently the Jets best winger overall?

Again nylander is stronger by quite a bit, so he isnt the weaker of the two. If ehlers can kick nylanders ass then great, hes the better fighter and thats all that proves.

Exactly. Fighting, chippy play, losing temper and making frustrated runs at people...that's not what "effective" counters to physical, heavy, defensive hockey look like or are about. It's so strange to me, that people will go to lengths to explain why "transition stats" are more important than "playing physical hockey"...but then turn to the most useless of all "physical play" elements to justify why a player is good and capable of playing an effective heavy game. It just comes across to me, as a fundamental misunderstanding, about what that type of hockey is about.

Even the "softest" player, can take the occasional run at somebody or engage in a bit of dirty retaliatory stickwork or a cheapshot or even do a "fight"...but it's like the Rocky quote: "It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward". That's what "effectiveness" in those heavy, tight checking games is all about. And it's where Ehlers has consistently seemed to fall a bit flat.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

Yes, and the Habs aren't one of them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone to get Josh Anderson to replace Joel Armias role. Drouin would also very likely be in the top 6 of both the Jets and Leafs too.

He's going to be playing in the top 6 of most teams which makes him a top 6 forward no matter how hard you try to dissect it. Lots of talented players who blow defensively can be top 6 players. Just like Max Domi. The guy was just as bad if not worse than Drouin defensively for the Habs last year. He couldn't even outplay 4th liners in the playoffs. Doesn't mean that he's not a top 6 forward.

Drouin may play above Mikheyev on the Leafs (debatable given Miks all - around game) but no way he's playing above any of the Jets 4 wingers (Wheeler, Connor, Laine and Ehlers)

 

[TimeZone]

Ehlers without thinking about it too much.

Nylander and Drouin both have a lot of talent that they haven't figured out how to use.

Nylander scored 31 goals and was on pace for 38 goals and 70 points last Season....

I'm assuming you see him as somebody with 100+ point potential if he's putting up those numbers without even scratching the surface.

 

[AstrophysicalJet]

Willy Nylander is a full tier above both.

 

[AstrophysicalJet]

Sure, but does a couple of fights here and there make you tough? to me, he plays just as much a perimeter game as Nylander.

Can’t have watched him much then, he is a feisty little f***er.

 

[The90]

I meant little by weak I don’t think Nylander has any guts to fight.

Lol. You were wrong on both counts. Nylander is not outwardly aggressive, but is very strong on his feet and very strong with the puck on his stick

 

[The90]

Weak means little courage, but whatever. Nylander is a player that lacks everything that people are afraid of, besides his golden locks.

In your context weak meant physically. Courage had nothing to do with what you said and you know it

 

[MardyBum]

Besides those guys and Scheifele, the rest aren't better than Drouin. So he would be a top 6 forward on the Jets.

Drouin is a winger, so no, he'd be on the third line.

Stastny is better than him as well.

 

[The Great Weal]

Drouin may play above Mikheyev on the Leafs (debatable given Miks all - around game) but no way he's playing above any of the Jets 4 wingers (Wheeler, Connor, Laine and Ehlers)

You do know it is possible for better players to play on a different line right? Malkin plays on the 2nd line, does that mean he isnt the 2nd best player on the Pens?

Anyways, the original point is that Drouin is a top 6 forward on many teams.

Drouin is a winger, so no, he'd be on the third line.

Stastny is better than him as well.

Alex Tuch is also a winger on the 3rd line, he is still a top 6 forward because he is better than Glass/Stephenson.

LMAO Stastny is definitely not better than Drouin, what a horrible take.

 

[MardyBum]

You do know it is possible for better players to play on a different line right? Malkin plays on the 2nd line, does that mean he isnt the 2nd best player on the Pens?

Anyways, the original point is that Drouin is a top 6 forward on many teams.

Alex Tuch is also a winger on the 3rd line, he is still a top 6 forward because he is better than Glass/Stephenson.

LMAO Stastny is definitely not better than Drouin, what a horrible take.

I didn't say whether or not he was a top 6 forward, I said he wouldn't be in the top 6 of the Jets, which is what I bolded when I quoted you.

Overall Stastny is a better player than Drouin. For any offensive advantage you can argue for Drouin (despite scoring at a lower rate than Stastny 5v5 over the last 3 years), Stastny makes up for being a better play driver and better defensively.

That certainly won't continue as Stastny is going to continue to trend downward.

 

[surixon]

You're positing a false premise here. Nobody is suggesting that Drouin is the best of the 3. Literally nobody. As the poll shows. But that doesn't mean he'd have zero votes for 2nd place.

Not to mention, we just had a poll on here recently wherein many were arguing Nylander is easily more valuable than Provorov. So...take HF Polls with many grains of salt in general probably. When you're an HF whipping horse, you don't win polls. It's just what you do.



Yes, Ehlers has suffered a bit for the chemistry and deployment needs of the team in that he doesn't tend to get the absolute top minutes of a "top line forward". But sometimes, that can be advantageous for a player like Ehlers, in that it gets him away from top matchup defence pairings and top choice checking lines. He's a very talented player, who can create a lot of offense and opportunities when he has the space to work. Playing behind a studly #1 Line isn't always a "bad thing", especially when it comes to things like efficiency metrics, P/60 and various similar and related analytics figures. Something Drouin has never really had the opportunity to do in MTL.

It's something that plays into what i'm suggesting about Ehlers in general. He often doesn't get the same attention as other Jets forwards, because the Scheifele line is the obvious and consistent focal point of defensive shutdown duties. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You want players like Ehlers who are able to generate good results in that secondary scoring role to capitalize on it. But that isn't the same as being an argument that he's purely more effective than others in a bigger role, against more robust defensive matchups. Meanwhile, i'm being told in this thread, that Ehlers is apparently the Jets best winger overall?



Exactly. Fighting, chippy play, losing temper and making frustrated runs at people...that's not what "effective" counters to physical, heavy, defensive hockey look like or are about. It's so strange to me, that people will go to lengths to explain why "transition stats" are more important than "playing physical hockey"...but then turn to the most useless of all "physical play" elements to justify why a player is good and capable of playing an effective heavy game. It just comes across to me, as a fundamental misunderstanding, about what that type of hockey is about.

Even the "softest" player, can take the occasional run at somebody or engage in a bit of dirty retaliatory stickwork or a cheapshot or even do a "fight"...but it's like the Rocky quote: "It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward". That's what "effectiveness" in those heavy, tight checking games is all about. And it's where Ehlers has consistently seemed to fall a bit flat.

The flaw to this is that Ehelers also performs extremely well when he is on the top line as well.

The most dangerous first line the Jets have ever run was the Ehlers, Scheifele ans Laine line.

 

[Killer Orcas]

Ehlers for me as he has the best two-way game here. However, Nylander does have a higher ceiling but a lower floor as well. Drouin should not be here as he's not lived up to his potential.

 

[majormajor]

Ehlers by a mile. And then about six miles down from Nylander is Drouin.

 

[The Great Weal]

I didn't say whether or not he was a top 6 forward, I said he wouldn't be in the top 6 of the Jets, which is what I bolded when I quoted you.

Yes, but I did and you responded to it. And he would be a top 6 forward on the Jets even if he wouldn't be on the top 2 lines because he's better than Stastny who is playing on a top 2 line.

Overall Stastny is a better player than Drouin.

No he's not, stop spewing nonsense. Better play driver? Ya I'm sure playing with Paciroetty and Stone must be hard lol. Only using 5v5 points is a terrible argument too. Would you take Philip Danault over Patrice Bergeron because Danault outscored him at EV with worse linemates?

 

[Regal]

You do know it is possible for better players to play on a different line right? Malkin plays on the 2nd line, does that mean he isnt the 2nd best player on the Pens?

Anyways, the original point is that Drouin is a top 6 forward on many teams.

Alex Tuch is also a winger on the 3rd line, he is still a top 6 forward because he is better than Glass/Stephenson.

LMAO Stastny is definitely not better than Drouin, what a horrible take.

Stastny is easily better than Drouin. He produces roughly the same and is a far better defensive and possession player. Drouin is not very good. I wouldn't take him for free at his price tag.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You do know it is possible for better players to play on a different line right? Malkin plays on the 2nd line, does that mean he isnt the 2nd best player on the Pens?

Anyways, the original point is that Drouin is a top 6 forward on many teams.

Which teams?

 

[DashingDane]

You're positing a false premise here. Nobody is suggesting that Drouin is the best of the 3. Literally nobody. As the poll shows. But that doesn't mean he'd have zero votes for 2nd place.

Not to mention, we just had a poll on here recently wherein many were arguing Nylander is easily more valuable than Provorov. So...take HF Polls with many grains of salt in general probably. When you're an HF whipping horse, you don't win polls. It's just what you do.



Yes, Ehlers has suffered a bit for the chemistry and deployment needs of the team in that he doesn't tend to get the absolute top minutes of a "top line forward". But sometimes, that can be advantageous for a player like Ehlers, in that it gets him away from top matchup defence pairings and top choice checking lines. He's a very talented player, who can create a lot of offense and opportunities when he has the space to work. Playing behind a studly #1 Line isn't always a "bad thing", especially when it comes to things like efficiency metrics, P/60 and various similar and related analytics figures. Something Drouin has never really had the opportunity to do in MTL.

It's something that plays into what i'm suggesting about Ehlers in general. He often doesn't get the same attention as other Jets forwards, because the Scheifele line is the obvious and consistent focal point of defensive shutdown duties. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You want players like Ehlers who are able to generate good results in that secondary scoring role to capitalize on it. But that isn't the same as being an argument that he's purely more effective than others in a bigger role, against more robust defensive matchups. Meanwhile, i'm being told in this thread, that Ehlers is apparently the Jets best winger overall?



Exactly. Fighting, chippy play, losing temper and making frustrated runs at people...that's not what "effective" counters to physical, heavy, defensive hockey look like or are about. It's so strange to me, that people will go to lengths to explain why "transition stats" are more important than "playing physical hockey"...but then turn to the most useless of all "physical play" elements to justify why a player is good and capable of playing an effective heavy game. It just comes across to me, as a fundamental misunderstanding, about what that type of hockey is about.

Even the "softest" player, can take the occasional run at somebody or engage in a bit of dirty retaliatory stickwork or a cheapshot or even do a "fight"...but it's like the Rocky quote: "It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward". That's what "effectiveness" in those heavy, tight checking games is all about. And it's where Ehlers has consistently seemed to fall a bit flat.

I think you need to stop typing and go watch some Ehlers tape. Ehlers is one of the few Jet's forwards that actually drives play. Everytime he has played on the 1st line that line has been better. He is one of the few Jet's forwards that makes everyone around him better. If you check out the Jets boards (you know, the place where everyone watches every Jets game) there is a sizable portion that considers Ehlers the best Jets winger (above Wheelers, Connor & Laine). I won't comment on Drouin as I haven't watch him enough to base my opinion on anything but stat watching.

 

[MardyBum]

Yes, but I did and you responded to it. And he would be a top 6 forward on the Jets even if he wouldn't be on the top 2 lines because he's better than Stastny who is playing on a top 2 line.

You keep saying one thing then arguing another.

Playing in the top 6 means playing in the top 6. Drouin would not on the Jets, and he's not better than Stastny. He'd be our 7th best forward, at best.

No he's not, stop spewing nonsense. Better play driver? Ya I'm sure playing with Paciroetty and Stone must be hard lol. Only using 5v5 points is a terrible argument too. Would you take Philip Danault over Patrice Bergeron because Danault outscored him at EV with worse linemates?

He's played with Stone and Pacioretty for 2 seasons. He's been a good play driving two-way C for a long time.

Danault just came off a Selke calibre season, not sure why you're bringing him up and comparing him to a guy like Drouin.

Right now Stastny is still better.

 

[DashingDane]

Compared with other Jet's wingers.

 

[DashingDane]

Between Ehlers and Nylander it's so close you pick based off team need. You go Drouin for a high draft pick.

 

[Dr Salt]

Well

 

[Dr Salt]