Drouin vs Nylander vs Ehlers

[Dache]

Not particularly, no. Just more so than Ehlers. Obviously it's an issue with all three of these guys, which is part of what makes them all good comparables. It's just a bigger issue with Ehlers, in my estimation.

I really have to question how much you watch these players if you’re saying that Nylander plays a more physical game than Ehlers. And even more question that this was nearly your sole reason for saying Ehlers is possibly below Drouin, while saying Nylander isn’t really much better, but is clearly better than both Ehlers and Drouin. Your whole point is clearly biased.

 

[biturbo19]

I really have to question how much you watch these players if you’re saying that Nylander plays a more physical game than Ehlers. And even more question that this was nearly your sole reason for saying Ehlers is possibly below Drouin, while saying Nylander isn’t really much better, but is clearly better than both Ehlers and Drouin. Your whole point is clearly biased.

It's not about being, "more physical"...it's about more effectively fighting through physical play. None of these three are heavy or physical players at all. That's not their game, not what they're expected to contribute, and that's fine. It's just more of a question of their ability to continue to play their game effectively, when countered by heavy physical play. Which is where i think Ehlers lags a bit, even if he is, as mentioned above, probably the "chippiest" and maybe the most seemingly "willing" of the three.

 

[Dache]

It's not about being, "more physical"...it's about more effectively fighting through physical play. None of these three are heavy or physical players at all. That's not their game, not what they're expected to contribute, and that's fine. It's just more of a question of their ability to continue to play their game effectively, when countered by heavy physical play. Which is where i think Ehlers lags a bit, even if he is, as mentioned above, probably the "chippiest" and maybe the most seemingly "willing" of the three.

And this is still exactly why it’s obvious you don’t watch Ehlers, and possibly don’t even watch Nylander.

 

[surixon]

I'd take Nylander. But between Ehlers and Drouin for second choice, i really don't think it's as far off and absurd as many in this thread are making it sound. Certainly not, "in a completely different league" or "Drouin doesn't even belong here" sort of gap for me. I'd give Drouin pretty serious consideration and honestly probably take him over Ehlers and his complete disappearing act when the checking gets tighter and the game gets more physical.

The talent and potential is clearly there with Drouin to match, or even best the others production. Heck, even right now...if you put Drouin in the situation of those other guys, with the opportunity, and caliber of linemates and especially Centers they've had, i'd bet Drouin is right there with them. On a solid contract. He just hasn't really had a top quality Center to play with, since he got to Montreal.

It's not a big sample size, but over ~a quarter season's worth of playoff games for each, Drouin is actually up there just ahead of Nylander even, while Ehlers has scored at ~0.36PPG rate like a mediocre 3rd liner in those scenarios. And the eye test corroborates it, where he doesn't look as effective when the game gets heavier and more locked down defensively. Just feels like every time i see Ehlers putting up a flurry of points, he's piling them on in some "run 'n gun" shootout type game, full of loose hockey and open ice to skate into. He's obviously still a talented, productive, valuable player, and firmly belongs in this sort of strata of comparables...but it's a pretty big wart to just ignore. To where i really do think all three justifiably belong in this poll together.

Drouin just seems to get a bad rap. He's far from a perfect player, but people generally seem harsher on him than they probably need to be. Maybe as some sort of overcorrection to him not really living up to his draft hype? Whatever it is, it seems pervasive, and i don't really get it.

We aren't talking about a new player here. Drouin is in his mid 20's with 6 years and 349 games of NHL experience he is pretty darn close to what he will always be at this point.

 

[biturbo19]

How can I refute this? You provided no context for your answer, though I suppose it's a bit better than the dozens of people who voted who didn't post.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that my post is predominantly about Ehlers vs Nylander, when it isn't at all. I think there has been plenty of discussion and explanation on Nylander over Ehlers in this thread. The points have already been made, and i don't particularly have much more to add on that topic that hasn't already been said here.

My post was predominantly about Ehlers vs Drouin, which hasn't really been discussed at all. It's largely been flippantly dismissed to the tune that Drouin doesn't even belong in this conversation at all. Which i disagree with, and was outlining why.

Ehlers played ~16% of his 5v5 ice time with Mark Scheifele last year. The rest he played with Andrew Copp, Blake Wheeler, Jack Roslovic, Cody f***ing Eakin, and Bryan Little as his C. Would just like to confirm with Habs fans how much better those last 5 are than all of the Habs C's. Must be big!

You quoted the bolded, about "especially Centers" while ignoring the rest of the sentence stressing quality of linemates in general, and indicating that it was in reference to both Ehlers and Nylander (who has played with particularly strong Centers). While also limiting it arbitrarily to a particular recent one-year sample, when it's been an ongoing theme with Drouin for a number of years now. Ehlers may not play much with Scheifele, but Drouin has played exactly 0% of his minutes with anyone close to Scheifele's caliber, or Wheeler's caliber for that matter, since arriving in Montreal.

And you posted it right there. Sample size.

Ehlers played on a line with Stastny and Laine for a lot of the 2017-18 playoffs.

Stastny had 15 points in 17 games played and shot 26%.

Laine had 12 points in 17 games played and shot 9%.

Ehlers had 7 points in 15 games played and shot 0%.

This is why, when you're talking about a sample size that small you need to look a little deeper than just ppg. It especially helps if you've actually watched the games, which less be honest you haven't considering your following opinions.

Ehlers had terrible puck luck in the 17-18 playoffs. He was absolutely pedestrian in the 18-19 playoffs like a lot of Jets players, but also like a few other Jets he was injured. He also again, went 0/26 in shots, making some "special" Jets fans wonder if he'd ever score a goal again.

I'm not sure what exactly your point is in this, other than demonstrating that other players were more effective. Excusing it away as "terrible puck luck" one year, and "well lots of guys were lackluster" the other year...at some point, when it happens repeatedly, it starts too look like a bit of a pattern. Sure, it's a small sample...but playoff effectiveness is always going to be judged on a small sample size, relative to the overall body of regular season work. That doesn't wholly invalidate it though. It's the most important time of year for a guy to step up, and Ehlers hasn't. He appears to have collected more excuses than points in his playoff experiences.

No, your eye test does. Ehlers is always one of the more engaged forwards in the top 6 for the Jets. People seem to think "engaged" means chasing the play and putting yourself in bad positions trying to hit. This isn't the 1990's. Even when he's not scoring points he's transitioning the puck at an elite level, or making plays to draw penalties at an elite level that he rarely gets to benefit from. He also gets frustrated and acts out physically, throwing out hits and picking fights with people who he really shouldn't. "He doesn't look effective" is another word for "I read the game summary and he didn't score so he sux"

I mean, of course it's my eye test. Who else's would it be? If it's not my eye test, it'd just be me parroting what someone else said, rather than what i saw and how i assessed it.

What you're suggesting, is just as much your eye test, tinted with a particular philosophical belief about the game of hockey, that that type of hockey is pointless/irrelevant.

The bolded about him getting frustrated and chippy is, as i suggested elsewhere in this thread, kind of party to my assessment. You're looking at it as, "well at least he's getting chippy". Whereas i'm looking at the first part of that, which flatly states that "he gets frustrated". That frustration is generally due to a lack of effectiveness. When he's not scoring, and not able to play his game quite the way he wants, to that same high level as other situations. That's what, "he doesn't look effective" means. It means he gets frustrated, because he's being stymied and his ability to play up to his highest level is being impeded. Chippiness and frustration in concert are not inherently positive and "effective" qualities. They tend to indicate a relative lack of effectiveness, or at least perceived effectiveness.

This is where the disconnect comes in. We see these half-brained articles from NHL.com, TSN, SC etc calling Connor or Laine or Wheeler or all 3 top 20 wingers, we see the same from posters on here who only scoreboard watch, when they are all worse than Ehlers currently. We have large portions of part-time Jets watchers telling us how good our players are and it's frankly embarrassing. They all may have things they do better than Ehlers, but overall it's not close at the moment.

I'm sure that's rough for Jets fans. Having all these good wingers, some of whom the media sometimes overstates the value of. Wheeler though, i really don't see how he's not the best winger on the Jets, and a Top-20 winger in the league. He's an absolute force in controlling play, and can pretty much play it any way you want. Maybe when he's pressed into duty out of position as a Center, he's not as effective as he can be otherwise, and yeah he's older and only has so much tread left on the tires. But at the time being, i think there's a reason other teams fans are more enamoured with him rather than Ehlers. I'm not sure how exactly that comes about...but when everyone else is suggesting one thing, and Jets fans are apparently convinced of the opposite, there's something funny going on there.

He "gets a bad rap" because he was drafted higher than both of them, and in a better draft, and gets consistently compared to them, especially Ehlers as they were both Mooseheads. He's not a bad player, and in the right offensive situation he could be better than he currently sits imo. I don't know if that's going to be under a Julien system but at least no one is laughably calling him a bust anymore. But he's not in the Nylander/Ehlers tier at the moment.

Sure, he's been a big disappointment, relative to his draft position and hype at the time. But at some point, this far out of the draft...it really has to stop mattering where a guy was drafted/who he was drafted ahead of or behind. It has no real bearing on the player that he is today. It's just a peripheral piece of trivia for Pierre to spout off.

 

[The90]

0 votes for Drouin. You love to see it.

Maybe nobody knows he speaks french. I hear that’s important for certain teams

 

[biturbo19]

We aren't talking about a new player here. Drouin is in his mid 20's with 6 years and 349 games of NHL experience he is pretty darn close to what he will always be at this point.

Yes. Drouin is almost certainly close to what he's always going to be at this point. They all are. But i still think there's a little bit of potential headroom there with Drouin. He's had some real stops and starts, and questionable surrounding casts in his not entirely 6 years of NHL experience. There are signs there that he's still not quite put together exactly the pieces of what he could be. Stretches where he shows that he can elevate to a higher level. Which, even if he doesn't ever fully reach that extra little bit of wiggle room upward, is still a player that to me at least, in the right situation is certainly in the conversation with a guy like Ehlers.

 

[Heldig]

Willy Nylander is a full tier above both.

That would have to be a very small "full tier".

Nylander 307 games 86+135 = 221 (0.72 ppg)
Ehlers 369 games 115 + 142 = 257 (0.70 ppg)

 

[biturbo19]

And this is still exactly why it’s obvious you don’t watch Ehlers, and possibly don’t even watch Nylander.

Yes. The old, "your opinion is different from mine, therefore you must not watch the player" bullshit gambit. Nice work.

 

[wabagee]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that my post is predominantly about Ehlers vs Nylander, when it isn't at all. I think there has been plenty of discussion and explanation on Nylander over Ehlers in this thread. The points have already been made, and i don't particularly have much more to add on that topic that hasn't already been said here.

My post was predominantly about Ehlers vs Drouin, which hasn't really been discussed at all. It's largely been flippantly dismissed to the tune that Drouin doesn't even belong in this conversation at all. Which i disagree with, and was outlining why.




You quoted the bolded, about "especially Centers" while ignoring the rest of the sentence stressing quality of linemates in general, and indicating that it was in reference to both Ehlers and Nylander (who has played with particularly strong Centers). While also limiting it arbitrarily to a particular recent one-year sample, when it's been an ongoing theme with Drouin for a number of years now. Ehlers may not play much with Scheifele, but Drouin has played exactly 0% of his minutes with anyone close to Scheifele's caliber, or Wheeler's caliber for that matter, since arriving in Montreal.





I'm not sure what exactly your point is in this, other than demonstrating that other players were more effective. Excusing it away as "terrible puck luck" one year, and "well lots of guys were lackluster" the other year...at some point, when it happens repeatedly, it starts too look like a bit of a pattern. Sure, it's a small sample...but playoff effectiveness is always going to be judged on a small sample size, relative to the overall body of regular season work. That doesn't wholly invalidate it though. It's the most important time of year for a guy to step up, and Ehlers hasn't. He appears to have collected more excuses than points in his playoff experiences.





I mean, of course it's my eye test. Who else's would it be? If it's not my eye test, it'd just be me parroting what someone else said, rather than what i saw and how i assessed it.

What you're suggesting, is just as much your eye test, tinted with a particular philosophical belief about the game of hockey, that that type of hockey is pointless/irrelevant.

The bolded about him getting frustrated and chippy is, as i suggested elsewhere in this thread, kind of party to my assessment. You're looking at it as, "well at least he's getting chippy". Whereas i'm looking at the first part of that, which flatly states that "he gets frustrated". That frustration is generally due to a lack of effectiveness. When he's not scoring, and not able to play his game quite the way he wants, to that same high level as other situations. That's what, "he doesn't look effective" means. It means he gets frustrated, because he's being stymied and his ability to play up to his highest level is being impeded. Chippiness and frustration in concert are not inherently positive and "effective" qualities. They tend to indicate a relative lack of effectiveness, or at least perceived effectiveness.




I'm sure that's rough for Jets fans. Having all these good wingers, some of whom the media sometimes overstates the value of. Wheeler though, i really don't see how he's not the best winger on the Jets, and a Top-20 winger in the league. He's an absolute force in controlling play, and can pretty much play it any way you want. Maybe when he's pressed into duty out of position as a Center, he's not as effective as he can be otherwise, and yeah he's older and only has so much tread left on the tires. But at the time being, i think there's a reason other teams fans are more enamoured with him rather than Ehlers. I'm not sure how exactly that comes about...but when everyone else is suggesting one thing, and Jets fans are apparently convinced of the opposite, there's something funny going on there.




Sure, he's been a big disappointment, relative to his draft position and hype at the time. But at some point, this far out of the draft...it really has to stop mattering where a guy was drafted/who he was drafted ahead of or behind. It has no real bearing on the player that he is today. It's just a peripheral piece of trivia for Pierre to spout off.

Why do you think this is so lopsided? Not one impartial vote for Drouin.

 

[93LEAFS]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that my post is predominantly about Ehlers vs Nylander, when it isn't at all. I think there has been plenty of discussion and explanation on Nylander over Ehlers in this thread. The points have already been made, and i don't particularly have much more to add on that topic that hasn't already been said here.

My post was predominantly about Ehlers vs Drouin, which hasn't really been discussed at all. It's largely been flippantly dismissed to the tune that Drouin doesn't even belong in this conversation at all. Which i disagree with, and was outlining why.




You quoted the bolded, about "especially Centers" while ignoring the rest of the sentence stressing quality of linemates in general, and indicating that it was in reference to both Ehlers and Nylander (who has played with particularly strong Centers). While also limiting it arbitrarily to a particular recent one-year sample, when it's been an ongoing theme with Drouin for a number of years now. Ehlers may not play much with Scheifele, but Drouin has played exactly 0% of his minutes with anyone close to Scheifele's caliber, or Wheeler's caliber for that matter, since arriving in Montreal.





I'm not sure what exactly your point is in this, other than demonstrating that other players were more effective. Excusing it away as "terrible puck luck" one year, and "well lots of guys were lackluster" the other year...at some point, when it happens repeatedly, it starts too look like a bit of a pattern. Sure, it's a small sample...but playoff effectiveness is always going to be judged on a small sample size, relative to the overall body of regular season work. That doesn't wholly invalidate it though. It's the most important time of year for a guy to step up, and Ehlers hasn't. He appears to have collected more excuses than points in his playoff experiences.





I mean, of course it's my eye test. Who else's would it be? If it's not my eye test, it'd just be me parroting what someone else said, rather than what i saw and how i assessed it.

What you're suggesting, is just as much your eye test, tinted with a particular philosophical belief about the game of hockey, that that type of hockey is pointless/irrelevant.

The bolded about him getting frustrated and chippy is, as i suggested elsewhere in this thread, kind of party to my assessment. You're looking at it as, "well at least he's getting chippy". Whereas i'm looking at the first part of that, which flatly states that "he gets frustrated". That frustration is generally due to a lack of effectiveness. When he's not scoring, and not able to play his game quite the way he wants, to that same high level as other situations. That's what, "he doesn't look effective" means. It means he gets frustrated, because he's being stymied and his ability to play up to his highest level is being impeded. Chippiness and frustration in concert are not inherently positive and "effective" qualities. They tend to indicate a relative lack of effectiveness, or at least perceived effectiveness.




I'm sure that's rough for Jets fans. Having all these good wingers, some of whom the media sometimes overstates the value of. Wheeler though, i really don't see how he's not the best winger on the Jets, and a Top-20 winger in the league. He's an absolute force in controlling play, and can pretty much play it any way you want. Maybe when he's pressed into duty out of position as a Center, he's not as effective as he can be otherwise, and yeah he's older and only has so much tread left on the tires. But at the time being, i think there's a reason other teams fans are more enamoured with him rather than Ehlers. I'm not sure how exactly that comes about...but when everyone else is suggesting one thing, and Jets fans are apparently convinced of the opposite, there's something funny going on there.




Sure, he's been a big disappointment, relative to his draft position and hype at the time. But at some point, this far out of the draft...it really has to stop mattering where a guy was drafted/who he was drafted ahead of or behind. It has no real bearing on the player that he is today. It's just a peripheral piece of trivia for Pierre to spout off.

The issue isn't just his draft position, is that he's paid to be a good offensive top 6 winger, and he doesn't even excel at that, and doesn't offer much else. If he brought a ton of intangibles and produced 53 points in his current role, fine. But, he doesn't. Of the 272 forwards who have played over 2000 minutes over the past 3 years at 5v5, he ranks a 179th in P/60. Ehlers and Nylander respectively rank 29th and 34th, with both of them having notably down seasons by their standards in 2018/19. Let's put it this way, I in no way doubt Jonathan Drouin has more offensive skill than Zach Hyman, but Zach Hyman ranks 100th (I'll give Hyman the obvious line-mates benefit). Brady Tkachuk who has only played two seasons, was in his D+1 and D+2 seasons as a rookie, brings a ton to the table, and plays on a terrible team ranks 93rd. That is why no one thinks that highly of Drouin, even if you throw-out that he was supposed to be comparable to what Huberdeau and Marner currently are. His main skill is he's decent to good on the PP, which is a fairly replaceable skill when you aren't good at much else.

If Drouin was a good defensive player, or brought a physical presence or a heart and soul guy then yeah, you can overlook the very sub-par 5v5 production for a top 6 forward, but he doesn't. He's a guy who if you give a decent amount of top 6 minutes, and powerplay time he'll put up number that look decent for a top 6 forward if you don't breakdown where they came from.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not particularly, no. Just more so than Ehlers. Obviously it's an issue with all three of these guys, which is part of what makes them all good comparables. It's just a bigger issue with Ehlers, in my estimation.

Totally disagree, he wouldn't crack an egg in the corner.

 

[Dache]

Yes. The old, "your opinion is different from mine, therefore you must not watch the player" bullshit gambit. Nice work.

Where did I say any of that. You seem to be getting very worked up here. You’re basing your whole opinion on Ehlers game not being good when it comes to the game getting physical when that is completely wrong based on anyone that watches, including actual nhl analysts or any stats, while saying the player that was very easy to push off his game physically until slightly improving this past year is clearly ahead. I’m not sure how some of you posters think that this schtick isn’t obvious trolling.

 

[HyPnOtiK]

Ehlers pretty easily for me

 

[HyPnOtiK]

What toughness? Not even being sarcastic. Ehlers is all speed and fitness. Not saying that's a bad thing but characterizing "toughness" as a main characteristic seems very odd.

Ehlers isn't particularly tough but he's clearly the grittiest of the 3 in the poll.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Well, if it's Alex and if Ehlers has a brother it might be Drouin, but if it's Nikolaj and Will, then Drouin doesn't really belong for being such a disappointment outside of 20ish games in his habs career anyways

 

[LokiDog]

I take Ehlers all day every day. Nylander is great and I am a big fan, but Ehlers has by far the most complete game of the bunch and, in my opinion would probably put up even better numbers if he was placed in a first line role, which he is clearly good enough for. Playing on a team with Scheifele, Wheeler, Connor, Laine he misses out on PP minutes and top line minutes. Ehlers is a beauty.

 

[Pyrophorus]

What a fantastic analysis.

I think Nylander is very fast, maybe faster.
He came jacked off his holdout, looked pretty strong
I've seen neither, elicit toughness

 

[Pyrophorus]

Sure, but does a couple of fights here and there make you tough? to me, he plays just as much a perimeter game as Nylander.

Who doesn't play much of one anymore.
Since most of his goals this year, were from in close, maybe he is quite tough.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Toronto would love the grit he brings to the weak team.

How much offense, defense and C playing ability should we sacrifice?

 

[wabagee]

I think Nylander is very fast, maybe faster.
He came jacked off his holdout, looked pretty strong
I've seen neither, elicit toughness

Ehlers would kick Little Nylanders ass.

 

[wabagee]

In skating, fighting and diving.

 

[surixon]

Yes. Drouin is almost certainly close to what he's always going to be at this point. They all are. But i still think there's a little bit of potential headroom there with Drouin. He's had some real stops and starts, and questionable surrounding casts in his not entirely 6 years of NHL experience. There are signs there that he's still not quite put together exactly the pieces of what he could be. Stretches where he shows that he can elevate to a higher level. Which, even if he doesn't ever fully reach that extra little bit of wiggle room upward, is still a player that to me at least, in the right situation is certainly in the conversation with a guy like Ehlers.

That right there is the issue, if he needs to be put in exactly the perfect spot to be as good as the other two then he isn't in their category. Ehlers hasn't exactly been put in the perfect spot for most of his time with the Jets. He routinely is the after thought amongst there top wingers and gets the least amount of PP time and often the least amount of first line time. It doesn't matter, he produces at an elite level and drives play regardless. It is what separates the elite from the good.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Ehlers would kick Little Nylanders ass.

I'll take the 5min PP.

Both are 6', but Nylander his a 24lb edge on Ehlers.
Who's little?

 

[wabagee]

I'll take the 5min PP.

Both are 6', but Nylander his a 24lb edge on Ehlers.
Who's little?

I meant little by weak I don’t think Nylander has any guts to fight.