Yeah Ideally they'd have a stay at home D on the right side who isn't a total plug.
Seider intrigues me.
Seider intrigues me.
Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part V (Lottery 04/09 8PM EST)
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I like Seider as well. Would love to grab him with an early 20s 1st if he slips.
I know there are concussion issues, but if health comes back in to order, I’d buy low on Conor Timmins. Avs are one of the few teams who can move an RHD with his potential due to Barrie and Makar.
I know there are concussion issues, but if health comes back in to order, I’d buy low on Conor Timmins. Avs are one of the few teams who can move an RHD with his potential due to Barrie and Makar.
brians1128
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Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
Yeah that was my point regarding his size, he is like significantly smaller than a Ryan McDonagh. I don't think that is optimal at all. In your own end, size definitely still matter. A lot. Not all Ds must be 6'3, but everyone can't be small either. There are so many good smaller Ds out there. Byram is taking one of the small D spots on your blueline. I would have liked him a lot more if he was 6'3-4...
Not trashing him, but his size isn't optimal. I don't like that he is an LD, the logjam everyone have there (and us especially). Like lol not to go to far ahead, but with Byram, K'Andre and Hajak we are basically set at LD, and I am actually fairly certain all three of those will make it. That isn't even counting Skjei. Nor any other prospect we have there. LDs can't be traded, well maybe a top guy if you are willing to take 50%. Its like buying a new car, loses half its value when you drive it out from the car dealer.
In addition, I think its important to remember that people were -- extremely -- high on Bouchard and Dobson from watching them in their junior leagues. Then when people sat down and really calibered their view of those leagues in relation to the other programs, Bouchard and Dobson -- in perspective -- fell a ton. I earlier today saw Byram play against Sweden in the Hlinka. Play Canada's best against Sweden's best today, its an even game and Byram is far from dominating. He is a very good player, but he hasn't been dominating against the best of his peers.
Look in the end I am just picky. I am not trashing him like it sounds, I just have a very high standard. This pick is tremendously important for this franchise. Its so tremendously important for us to get that homegrown top forward, and we actually might have a shot at one of them with this pick. If I am giving up on getting that homegrown top forward that we haven't had in ages, 189 years ago since we last drafted a top forward to be precise, to take a D I am going to be be pretty critical of the option discussed.
And I am not sold on that Byram is optimal. Like I think extremely highly of him, probably best D in the -- entire -- draft. Its not that. But is he optimal for us?
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Beacon
Embrace the tank
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The bottom 4 on defense could well be ADA, Skjei, one of Lundkvist or Pionk, and one of Hajek, Rykov or Lindgren. But where's the the first pair? Maybe K'Andre if all works out perfectly, but right now he's a very long way away from the first pair.
Up front, Lias, Howden, Lemieux, Strome, Nieves, Lettieri or someone like Gettinger as the bottom 6. Zibs, Butcher, Chytil and maybe Kravtsov will be top-6 forwards. Zib's good, but he's a low-end 1C. On a Cup contender, he should be a second liner. Maybe one of Chytil or Kravtsov makes it as a first liner. But at best, we're missing 2 first liners, potentially we are short 3 first liners and a second liner if neither Chytil nor Kravtsov make it (think back to when we had even better blue chip prospects Cherneski, Brendl, Lundmark)
People may argue that Zib is a 1C and Lias could be a 2C. But likely not on a contender. You don't win the Cup with the 26th best center as your 1C and 55th best center as your 2C. Your 2C should be someone who can be a 1C on most lower teams and can step in when the 1C is injured or struggling.
This team has a good number of middle to lower NHLers, but I'm having a hard time seeing 5 guys who can play on the first line/pair of a Cup contender.
The goal of this draft shouldn't be to get a guy who looks good at everything on paper, but then turns into Lias, Korpikoski, Malhotra or Sundstrom. The goal should be to get a highly flawed player, who despite his flaws is viewed as a top-10 draftee because if everything breaks right, he's a difference-maker.
With 5 picks in the first 2 rounds this year, we have enough lottery tickets to hit at least one future NHLer, so let's not worry about making sure we get at least 1 rookie to lower the cap in the future. That will happen. Go for the moon. Get me that Jessiman who will bust with the Rangers pick if that means we got Getzlaf with the Jets pick.
Up front, Lias, Howden, Lemieux, Strome, Nieves, Lettieri or someone like Gettinger as the bottom 6. Zibs, Butcher, Chytil and maybe Kravtsov will be top-6 forwards. Zib's good, but he's a low-end 1C. On a Cup contender, he should be a second liner. Maybe one of Chytil or Kravtsov makes it as a first liner. But at best, we're missing 2 first liners, potentially we are short 3 first liners and a second liner if neither Chytil nor Kravtsov make it (think back to when we had even better blue chip prospects Cherneski, Brendl, Lundmark)
People may argue that Zib is a 1C and Lias could be a 2C. But likely not on a contender. You don't win the Cup with the 26th best center as your 1C and 55th best center as your 2C. Your 2C should be someone who can be a 1C on most lower teams and can step in when the 1C is injured or struggling.
This team has a good number of middle to lower NHLers, but I'm having a hard time seeing 5 guys who can play on the first line/pair of a Cup contender.
The goal of this draft shouldn't be to get a guy who looks good at everything on paper, but then turns into Lias, Korpikoski, Malhotra or Sundstrom. The goal should be to get a highly flawed player, who despite his flaws is viewed as a top-10 draftee because if everything breaks right, he's a difference-maker.
With 5 picks in the first 2 rounds this year, we have enough lottery tickets to hit at least one future NHLer, so let's not worry about making sure we get at least 1 rookie to lower the cap in the future. That will happen. Go for the moon. Get me that Jessiman who will bust with the Rangers pick if that means we got Getzlaf with the Jets pick.
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@ZuccsFluffierFluffer and @Matz03 Great stuff and Seider intrigues me a ton too.
Like I don't know how good he really is, how good he would be against the best of his peers. Its so hard when one kid plays at a totally different level like this. But my feelings for him this year is very comparable to what I felt about K'Andre last season. Like he got that freak/monster potential. I also think his biggest issue will be the small tempo plays, get rid of some bad habits that he can allow himself on the bigger ice, speed things up, shouldn't be any thing that you can't iron out over a few years.
Like I don't know how good he really is, how good he would be against the best of his peers. Its so hard when one kid plays at a totally different level like this. But my feelings for him this year is very comparable to what I felt about K'Andre last season. Like he got that freak/monster potential. I also think his biggest issue will be the small tempo plays, get rid of some bad habits that he can allow himself on the bigger ice, speed things up, shouldn't be any thing that you can't iron out over a few years.
I am almost finished watching the 5 nations in Russia.
A few thoughts. Trevor Zegras has really been putting up points for the USNDP this year. His passing game is world class. He can both move the puck really fast and thread those impossible passes. He has a great mix of finding the open guy but also utilizing those area passes. You have 5 opponents and 4 teammates, its not rocket science that if 5 opponents are low the Ds will be open. They are a bit different from the no-look pass, you know that your guy is there. A very good option to keep possession.
Zegras' wheels will not be a positive factor in the NHL. He has great balance, don't need much ice to maneuver in and so forth. Can make those turns. Can also walk between Ds and what not unless you keep the gap on him. OTOH, he definitely don't have that elite top speed.
I've seen him raise in some rankings lately. I am not on board with that. From my POV he has more of a Jordan Eberle type of ceiling. I don't really see him as a bona fide top 5 candidate.
A few thoughts. Trevor Zegras has really been putting up points for the USNDP this year. His passing game is world class. He can both move the puck really fast and thread those impossible passes. He has a great mix of finding the open guy but also utilizing those area passes. You have 5 opponents and 4 teammates, its not rocket science that if 5 opponents are low the Ds will be open. They are a bit different from the no-look pass, you know that your guy is there. A very good option to keep possession.
Zegras' wheels will not be a positive factor in the NHL. He has great balance, don't need much ice to maneuver in and so forth. Can make those turns. Can also walk between Ds and what not unless you keep the gap on him. OTOH, he definitely don't have that elite top speed.
I've seen him raise in some rankings lately. I am not on board with that. From my POV he has more of a Jordan Eberle type of ceiling. I don't really see him as a bona fide top 5 candidate.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
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Oscar Lindberg
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People seem to think Lindgren is some behemoth when in actuality he's the same height and weight as Shattenkirk, who people refer to as soft lol
HockeyBasedNYC
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Alex Turcotte has been a riser lately. I think he has been subject to weak coverage all season. Earlier I asked how he could be as low as 15th on some rankings (Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part III). Its hard to understand. I think he has been blocked by Hughes and a deep US team.
He is surpassing Kakko from my POV. He is everything I want in a player. Tremendous wheels, in all aspects. Can turn so fast, get going so fast, keep speed under his skates etc. And that is just so valuable in today's game. Look at Barzal. Look at Keller too in a sense. Turcotte hockey sense is great, he makes so many good reads, is responsible defensively. His hands are really good, he sees the ice really well.
I just think having a guy with that type of wheels and ability to cover ice just change the outlook of an entire team. Give this kid 3-4 years and he his going to be a nightmare to match up against in the NHL, that speed, that engine.
This kid reminds me a lot of Henrik Zetterberg.
He is surpassing Kakko from my POV. He is everything I want in a player. Tremendous wheels, in all aspects. Can turn so fast, get going so fast, keep speed under his skates etc. And that is just so valuable in today's game. Look at Barzal. Look at Keller too in a sense. Turcotte hockey sense is great, he makes so many good reads, is responsible defensively. His hands are really good, he sees the ice really well.
I just think having a guy with that type of wheels and ability to cover ice just change the outlook of an entire team. Give this kid 3-4 years and he his going to be a nightmare to match up against in the NHL, that speed, that engine.
This kid reminds me a lot of Henrik Zetterberg.
Nobody calls Shattenkirk soft because of his size. There's no correlation between the two.
The Crypto Guy
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The Crypto Guy
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Matz03
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maybe they should look to grab them both? yes bpa should be the focus and we really need to be looking for high end skill/scoring, but in the late first into the second need have to be considered vs who is available.
He has a Crosby'esque vibe about him, the size, speed, tenacity combo. Not saying that his upside is Crosby but I see parallels in their style.
Yeah, I don’t think Detroit let’s him go past them. Assuming the list is as it is. Kakko to LA. Turcotte to Detroit. vPod to NJ? Cozens to Buffalo?
It’s not good. Odds are that we are getting the 7th pick. The forwards could be gone by then.
Could Detroit have interest in Byram? Don’t think any of the other top teams are that keen on him. Or could NJ be interested? That would be great.
Dach is also good. I think Dach is better than Hayton. And that kid LA took with backproblems, lost his name.
One thing, I would have — zero — concern about center log-jam looking at any of the available centers in this draft. Lias can easily — preferably? — move to the wing. The same for Howden. If Kreider is dealt I want to see Howden used on the wing in a similar role. With Turcottes wheels you would probably want to keep him at C. Cozens can easily play wing, I think only a team with a shortage at center would use him there. Dach can also easily play wing.
It’s a none issue. I can’t see any issue. And if — and it’s a big if — we got a logjam at center it’s the easiest thing in the world to utilize in a trade.
It’s a none issue. I can’t see any issue. And if — and it’s a big if — we got a logjam at center it’s the easiest thing in the world to utilize in a trade.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Yeah that was my point regarding his size, he is like significantly smaller than a Ryan McDonagh. I don't think that is optimal at all. In your own end, size definitely still matter. A lot. Not all Ds must be 6'3, but everyone can't be small either. There are so many good smaller Ds out there. Byram is taking one of the small D spots on your blueline. I would have liked him a lot more if he was 6'3-4...
Not trashing him, but his size isn't optimal. I don't like that he is an LD, the logjam everyone have there (and us especially). Like lol not to go to far ahead, but with Byram, K'Andre and Hajak we are basically set at LD, and I am actually fairly certain all three of those will make it. That isn't even counting Skjei. Nor any other prospect we have there. LDs can't be traded, well maybe a top guy if you are willing to take 50%. Its like buying a new car, loses half its value when you drive it out from the car dealer.
In addition, I think its important to remember that people were -- extremely -- high on Bouchard and Dobson from watching them in their junior leagues. Then when people sat down and really calibered their view of those leagues in relation to the other programs, Bouchard and Dobson -- in perspective -- fell a ton. I earlier today saw Byram play against Sweden in the Hlinka. Play Canada's best against Sweden's best today, its an even game and Byram is far from dominating. He is a very good player, but he hasn't been dominating against the best of his peers.
Look in the end I am just picky. I am not trashing him like it sounds, I just have a very high standard. This pick is tremendously important for this franchise. Its so tremendously important for us to get that homegrown top forward, and we actually might have a shot at one of them with this pick. If I am giving up on getting that homegrown top forward that we haven't had in ages, 189 years ago since we last drafted a top forward to be precise, to take a D I am going to be be pretty critical of the option discussed.
I dunno, I don’t really have much concern about him being in 6’1, 205-210 range. That would essentially make him all of 5-10 pounds lighter than McD. Just not really seeing the size thing. His size now is very close to what McD was in his draft year.
I’m incredibly hesitant to pass on a player because of what we perceive to have in the system, because the odds of that backfiring are extremely high. Now if we had a bunch of kids who had already established themselves, that can change things a bit. But right now all we have is potential, and a healthy serving of “we don’t know yet” soup.
I also think we’re seriously undervaluing how much a quality LHD is actually worth. I mean if it was that easy to go out and get someone at used car prices, I don’t think we’d be subjected to the Holy Trinity of Frustration in Staal, Skjei and Smith.
As for Dobson and Bouchard, I can only compare apples to apples - aka how I viewed them at this time last year.
In both cases, I never had either ranked as high as third, and I was pretty consistent in my belief that I felt they projected better as second pair defenseman.
Having watched all three pretty extensively, I view Byram much more favorably than those two — and again, they were also 7-9 months older than Byram.
Having said that, I have no idea who the Rangers will pick and my gut doesn’t tell me it will be Byram right now. However, I honestly wouldn’t blink if they did.
I think he’d arguably be the most promising defenseman they’ve drafted in almost 30 years.
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
It’ll be interesting to see where Turcotte goes.
Right now, I’d say he’s the anti-Podkolzin in that he’s higher on these boards than he seems to be in a lot of places.
I also get the sense that he might be this year’s red herring, aka the guy who shoots up a bunch of rankings about 8-12 weeks out from the draft, before finally settling back into the range he was viewed in prior to that climb.
Right now, I’d say he’s the anti-Podkolzin in that he’s higher on these boards than he seems to be in a lot of places.
I also get the sense that he might be this year’s red herring, aka the guy who shoots up a bunch of rankings about 8-12 weeks out from the draft, before finally settling back into the range he was viewed in prior to that climb.
Great post!
One thing though, I looked quite throughly at this a couple of months ago.
How old is a D in the NHL normally when he is able to assume the role as a top pairing D? I don’t remember the exact details, but you can never really expect a D to assume that role before they are 24-25 y/o. Ds differs so much compared to forwards in that regard. McDavid can play at 18. Even Hedman needed 4 years. Many thought he was a bust or overrated in D+3. There are exceptions. There have been some guys lately, McAvoy. But they are so rare, you cannot count on someone being ready to mirror that.
My point is this, if we are planning on DRAFTING that 1st pair in the coming years — this will be a long rebuild. Then we are most likely talking about being ready to challenge for a PO spot in 6-7 years. And most likely the forwards will be ruined by then.
Not saying that we shouldn’t consider drafting a D — but it shouldn’t be motivated with a need for a 1st pairing now or even down the road. The math don’t add up for that.
I think part of it is due to where he was ranked over the summer and in early publications last spring. He was pretty consistently in the top 8 or 10 and people are eager to get him back in there due to the perception that his fall was entirely due to injury.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
My only concern with all the US program kids is that they’re playing on the teenage equivalent of the 1980s Edmonton Oilers.
Don’t get me wrong, they’re all incredibly talented, and certainly should be in the mix for those 3-10 draft positions. But it’s also very easy to get caught up in the excitement and keep pushing those ceilings higher and higher.
It’s the same mindset when we start targeting players from one of the stacked offensive teams in the NHL. I can’t help but feel that we have to be a little careful with that — especially in a world of highlight clips and purposeful editing.
Because this is the time of year where it becomes a game of one-ups-manship when it comes to projecting these kids. And it happens every spring.
Truth to be told, I wouldn’t care that much about what ‘others’ think. There are so much out there that only is based on some McKenzie ranking plus a finger in the air and some names moved around based on gut feelings. Just look back at last year, it’s a joke how off some stuff are. But that is only the start of it, then you go on and read what some actually are saying about a player. We covered the Wahlstrom stuff in the past, his skating. Nobody even brought it up, and quite many labeled him as a terrific skater and what not. This is not some dud in the 3rd round, he participated every time everywhere all season.
Get an eye on a kid and watch a full game, preferably against the best of his peers, it will get you so much further than reading most of these reports.
McKenzies rankings are of course genuine and of great quality, but for some reasons — we can only speculate — they are also ‘off’ by quite much if the mid season is compared to the June one and then the draft.
As for who we will pick, Clarke and co will take a kid they really like. Who thrives in spotlight, and who has the ability to be a special player. I think Lias over Mittlestad was all character. I also think they really will premier speed.
A lot will depend on who still is on the table. I think there is a quite steep drop off after 6-7, but I don’t have track of everyone.
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