Speculation: Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part IX (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)
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JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
- Oct 8, 2010
- 80,073
- 17,713
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
how do the centers rank after hughes? lots of talk about trying to trade up for newhook and zegras, not so much the others. assuming thats cause people hope they will fall and know the others will be gone. not cause they like them over the others?
Really depends on who you ask. A lot of folks here love Zegras and Newhook but if you look at other boards the talk is all about Dach, Turcotte, or Cozens. Zegras and Newhook tend to be rated a little lower on most public lists as well, so that lends a little bit of hope to the idea that they might be available if we can move up.
My next 5 centers after Hughes are:
Dach
Zegras
Turcotte
Cozens
Newhook
You could ask 5 people on the NYR board and you might get 5 different variations of that list.
He seems to be an interesting kid, at least from looking at short vids!
I certainly wouldn't be against Gorton trading down from 20 -- if certain kids do not fall -- to late 1st plus a 2nd round pick. We talk about the need of getting a LD that has No 1 potential.
To perform at that level in the NHL, it takes something else than just talent. Talent is a requirement, but the craft side of it is huge and some kids will just learn to perfect their game well enough to get there while most won't. In this perspective, its much harder to read who will get it down 5-6 years down the road than it is to establish which forwards might end up scoring a lot in the NHL and so forth. Its more of a lottery. And if we look at top Ds, so many are not high 1st round picks. Its like with goalies but to a later extent.
The motive for trading down is that from my perspective, there are so many Ds -- especially LDs -- out there that has the talent and its just quite frankly not much that separates them from each other. Its not hard -- at all -- to make a case for why a Boldy or Caufield or Newhook or even a Lavoie or someone like them should go 5-25 instead of many forwards ranked in the 26-60 range. Give me a projector and a PC and a few hours and I could make a very compelling case for it that would convince just about everyone, I could show what they can do and what that will enable them to do in the NHL. I can show what other forwards do not have and how that usually holds them back. Sure there is an X factor involced in terms of growth and development, hands down, but on draft day you can only go on what you got.
But to make the same argument for why like Cam York should go 15-25 instead of some of the other top Ds in the 26-60 range shouldn't would be so much harder. Why? Its just how the land lies. Supply and demand or whatever. Why should a Björnfot go 30-60 spots lower than York? Its not entirely easy to make those type of cases. Both roughly have the necessary platform, which of them will in the coming 6-8 years take those huge steps necessary to get to a level where they can play at a really high level shift in and shift out in the NHL (just look at how hard it has been for someone like Skjei to move up and assume bigger responsibilities on D)?
I think odds are much higher that you get better value if you can get two Ds like this, one in the late 1st and one in the 2nd, than a slightly higher ranked one at 20 overall. Or a "flawed" forward like Brink at late 1st and a D at say 35-45 or vice versa. This does change however if you can find a kid at 20 that you think are on par with those players normally picked at say 5-15. Say that a Seider drops, that you really believe in someone like Lavoie or someone like them.
Anything else would surprise me, and it would also surprise me if 5 different teams also gave you 5 different answers.
In the end I do think that Turcotte and Newhook should have separated themselves from the others on that list, I also think there level headed scouts should have noticed that the transition up the ranks won't be extremely easy for the big guys Cozens and Dach. Just like Cozens was kept in shack to some extent at the U18 WJCs, I am pretty certain that Dach also would be contained so much that he wouldn't dominate.
Zegras don't have the complete game of Turcotte and Newhook, he has been able to piggy-back on Hughes and really play to his strengths for the USNDP, and not been forced to contribute in all areas even remotely to the same extent as a top kid normally has to do. With that said, he is a great play maker with that still has an interesting skill set.
But could a team with a top pick like Chicago feel that like you know what, this kid will really flourish in the mix of players we have with Toews, Kane, Debrincat and Strome? I wouldn't rule that out. In that scenario he could go from maybe being deserving of a 8-12 pick to a 3-5 pick. We have also seen how some GMs really hanker for a center with size, and on top of that for RHS at center. Cozens and Dach of course fit that bill really well.
So for good reasons, these kids can be put in a variety of order. I wouldn't strongly shoot down anyone of them being put infront of the other. Only if guys like Krebs, Nikolayev and Suzuki and the likes starts to get mentioning there.
Further -- there is another guy out there that you can make a very strong argument for in terms of top upside -- and that is Igor Spiridonov. I think he is much stronger overall than he gets credit for, and that he is attributed being a little less purposeful on the ice than he is due to Russian bias. I can only speak for myself -- but I would have been guilty of having him too low if I just read his name and country listed in his passport, as opposed to a scenario where he had the identical ability to play hockey but was named Clark Clarkson and came from Ontario.
Some might also mention John Beecher. But I do think that he don't quite reach the upside potential the others have.
Can say the same exact thing about Podkolzin if he falls that low.
TheBloodyNine
Pure Bred Soviet Savage
Keep thinking about Byram. If Rangers want to really advance the rebuild, you need to get a Dman of Byram's level into the fold sooner rather than later. Looking at what a guy like Miro Heiskenen did in the playoffs at 19 years old made me salivate for the same. Miller had a great freshman year but he doesn't project to be what Byram does. Defenseman take longer, generally, to become the players they are meant to be. Better to get those guys into the fold sooner rather than later. I think that's a huge reason why the Rangers paid what they did for Fox.
I know it's out of the realm or reality but if they could find a way to walk out of this draft with Kakko and Byram that takes a full year off of a rebuild. We have a lot of ammo but I don't know if we have that much. Anyway, it's nice to day dream.
I know it's out of the realm or reality but if they could find a way to walk out of this draft with Kakko and Byram that takes a full year off of a rebuild. We have a lot of ammo but I don't know if we have that much. Anyway, it's nice to day dream.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I have them all more or less in the same range - with Dach/Cozens being a natural comparison, and Turcotte/Zegras/Newhook being natural comparisons because of size, elements of their styles, etc.
In terms of how I have them ranked (with their initial and final ranking)
Cozens (3 - 4)
Turcotte (6 - 5)
Zegras (21 - 6)
Dach (7 - 7)
Newhook (8 - 8)
Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
So, you would go:
Hughes
Kakko
Byram
Cozens
Turcotte
Zegras
Dach
Newhook
Correct?
When will you post your final list?
Lion Hound
Pornhub Enthusiast
I know a goalie who played against him with some regularity. Also a few coaches who coached against him. All of them rave about Beecher. One of them literally said the kid looks like a Mini-Malkin!
Ghosts Beer
I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
- Feb 10, 2014
- 22,959
- 16,620
Hi guys. I had the Rangers in our yearly mock draft over at the Flyers board. Thought some of you might be interested in seeing the outcome, or at least throwing a beer at me. (The order was set before the Fox trade):
1 - 2 - NYR - Kaapo Kakko, RW, TPS (SM-Liiga)
1 - 22 - NYR - Jakob Pelletier, LW, Moncton (QMJHL)
2 - 37 - NYR - Nick Robertson, C/LW, Peterborough (OHL)
2 - 49 - NYR - Yegor Afanasyev, F, Muskegon (USHL)
2 - 62 - NYR - Henry Thrun, D, USNTDP (USHL)
3 - 68 - NYR - Albert Johansson, D, Farjestad (SuperElit)
4 - 112 - NYR - Domenick Fensore, D, USNTDP (USHL)
5 - 130 - NYR - Trent Miner, G, Vancouver (WHL)
6 - 161 - NYR - Trevor Janicke, RW, Central Illinois (USHL)
7 - 205 - NYR - Dmitri Sheshin, LW, Magnitogorsk (MHL)
Anyway, in general I unfortunately think you guys will be able to rebuild pretty quickly. Gonna be a tough division for many years.
1 - 2 - NYR - Kaapo Kakko, RW, TPS (SM-Liiga)
1 - 22 - NYR - Jakob Pelletier, LW, Moncton (QMJHL)
2 - 37 - NYR - Nick Robertson, C/LW, Peterborough (OHL)
2 - 49 - NYR - Yegor Afanasyev, F, Muskegon (USHL)
2 - 62 - NYR - Henry Thrun, D, USNTDP (USHL)
3 - 68 - NYR - Albert Johansson, D, Farjestad (SuperElit)
4 - 112 - NYR - Domenick Fensore, D, USNTDP (USHL)
5 - 130 - NYR - Trent Miner, G, Vancouver (WHL)
6 - 161 - NYR - Trevor Janicke, RW, Central Illinois (USHL)
7 - 205 - NYR - Dmitri Sheshin, LW, Magnitogorsk (MHL)
Anyway, in general I unfortunately think you guys will be able to rebuild pretty quickly. Gonna be a tough division for many years.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I have the top 15 or so done. It's everyone beyond that I need to slot in.
But that is correct for my top 8. I also think there's not necessarily much upside separating 3 from 8.
eco's bones
Registered User
The main thing--the most important thing is you didn't f*** up the 2OA. As for the rest-- the Rangers are picking at 20--not 22 and the 37 is gone in the Fox deal and the 62 turned into 58. I can only surmise that this draft you did started a while before some of these things sorted out.
So I like Pelletier but not that early. 37 might have been alright for Robertson but we don't have the pick anymore. We're loaded with defense prospects and particularly left shot D prospects. You've given us three more. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers picked another goalie but it's really not necessary. It would be nice to have a year or two of a break from that.
I am a bit surprised by the lack of new rankings that have been made available after the U18s. Last season McKenzie came out with one that had some really big movements. But OTOH the lottery was later back then.
Supposedly McKs next polling will come 21 June, that one is going to have some really big movement compared to what he made available just after the lottery but before the U18s.
Supposedly McKs next polling will come 21 June, that one is going to have some really big movement compared to what he made available just after the lottery but before the U18s.
How do you know that? Byram is 6'0. K'Andre is 6'3 with a mean streak and some offense. I'll take the 6'3 guy any day with two smaller, right handed denseman on this team in Fox and DeAngelo. Miller's upside is significantly higher than Byram's IMO. He didn't start playing defense until a couple of years ago.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
Dream scenario, #9, section 8, precinct 13:
#2 Kakko
#12 Zegras
#20 Kaliyev
#49 Henriksson
#58 Helleson
#68 Fensmore
#112 Blaisdell
#130 Ivan Rogov
#161 Cade Alami
#205 Carter Berger
Wow. I like Miller a lot, but let's keep some semblance of reality here. Dahlin aside, Byram is the best defensive prospect in two drafts.
Kayliev is a hard, hard pass for me.
Think there is any chance that either Nikolayev or Korzcak are available at 49? Beecher at 58?
McKenzie will probably have his next podcast dedicated to the draft in two weeks. Early June. He had great info last year which was 2-3 weeks before the draft. He records a podcast every two weeks. He recorded one yesterday. The draft is 5 weeks from today. May 30 or 31. The next one is on June 13 or 14. No draft stuff yesterday. Kind of disappointing. Too much stuff on the Sabres and Leafs.
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
Zegras and Kaliyev have played together and showed great chemistry, albeit Bantam age, i'd be interested in giving it a go. Though this is only one scenario of the many i'd be okay with.
Nikolaev yes, not sure about Korczak, I'm guessing he'll go at the late first early second round, 49 is not out of the realm of possibility but he's a name that comes up a lot in mock picks before that.
Beecher could also be a late first to late 2nd. I'd say mid 2nd round if I had to guess, split the difference.
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I would be very happy if the Rangers can get themselves any of those 3 names in the 2nd round. Two of the three and I am ecstatic.
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