Speculation: Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part IX (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)

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It seems like a lot of kids that everyone likes might not be at 20. Sounds like the Rangers need to move up 4-6 spots. Is Kreider really the only chip to add to #20 to get where the better kids are? Would rather use Kreider for a 2020 first to a currently struggling team.

We have 2 2nds.

The key is to identify a team that has a lack of talent in their system and try to see if they're willing to exchange the higher pick for more swings at the plate.

If Kessel goes to Minnesota, I think we found our spot for Kreider (Arizona.)
 
It seems like a lot of kids that everyone likes might not be at 20. Sounds like the Rangers need to move up 4-6 spots. Is Kreider really the only chip to add to #20 to get where the better kids are? Would rather use Kreider for a 2020 first to a currently struggling team.

I'd trade up for Zegras or Newhook but otherwise I'd stick at 20. I think there'll be some good options there still. Half the mocks I've seen has us drafting York at 20 which is pretty good value. I don't think any struggling teams will be willing to give up a 2020 1st for Kreider.
 
I'm on board with Tomasino...At the point even if it's between him and Seider/York I take Tomasino (and we all love Seider). RH forward which would be a really really nice add to our prospect pool. I just hope one of those three are there at 20.
 
I'm on board with Tomasino...At the point even if it's between him and Seider/York I take Tomasino (and we all love Seider). RH forward which would be a really really nice add to our prospect pool. I just hope one of those three are there at 20.

Tomasino should be.
 
Tomasino should be.
I think he will be but I wouldn't be surprised if we went between 14-18.
Guys like Dellandrea, Foudy and even O'brien were all forwards that went higher then most of us thought they would in 2018. I just hope most of the dmen and Knight create a little buffer for Tomasino to fall but then again who knows what the Rangers are thinking at 20.
 
Btw I know it concerns next years draft but any idea if the Stars are gonna make the signing happen before Zucc truly becomes a UFA?
 
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I’ve heard someone compare Kolyachonok to Slavin. Is that accurate?
Yes. Is a leader and works hard. He’s not as flashy as some guys but he’s so smooth out there

Edit-I don’t think he’ll end up as Slavin though
 
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I'd trade up for Zegras or Newhook but otherwise I'd stick at 20. I think there'll be some good options there still. Half the mocks I've seen has us drafting York at 20 which is pretty good value. I don't think any struggling teams will be willing to give up a 2020 1st for Kreider.

yeah i'm mostly interested in trading up for one of the centers. if they aren't available then I probably stay at 20 and hope for the best but there are at least 20 guys that i'd be good with so someone will be there

and for the 2020 1st...at the deadline you are only getting a 1st from a playoff team. but over the summer you might be able to swing a deal with a bubble team that thinks that by adding kreider they can make the playoffs and we'd be rooting for them to fall on their faces
 
Great way of putting it and I agree with all of it.

The big challenge for these guys comes when they move up a notch. Many will get drowning symptoms, they end up fighting really hard just to get the odd breather when having the puck. Of the guys that do make it, its often the players that not only are good or great at buying themselves time with the puck -- its the ones that are the best at just that.

In Juniors, its often the top end skill that is on display. I.e. what you can do with the puck -- after you have created time and space for yourself with. Matt Barzal is a great example of this. He scored 85 effin pts in his rookie season in the NHL, but he wasn't uber dominant in the WHL. Think he was 3rd and 5th in PPGs his last two seasons. Button had him in the middle of the pack in terms of top 50 prospects outside the NHL. Many can be as good as him with the puck with time, but not many can create time for themselves in the same manner. Brayden Point is another one. 92 pts this last season.

agree totally...theres a massive difference btw corey locke/schremp/st croix/sam gagner and point/giroux/marner etc...you need that short area explosion to create the time/seams for skills to be displayed. to me my big premium would be placed on balance/body control in tight spaces - ability to handle pucks in traffic, take contested passes cleanly, spin off checks in the right direction while holding the puck, handling bad passes w/o losing pace, and ability to pivot in any direction as needed. ie going back to brink, the margin btw him becoming corey locke or jaden schwartz is so slim, and almost entirely dictated by whether or not he can add the explosion necessary to create space he'll need to produce at higher levels. to me i like his skillset in the areas i mentioned to potentially take that risk....but also hard to argue against opinions he's in the former camp i mentioned
 
I think Kreider + 20 for 14 plus a 3rd round pick that becomes a second if he resigns is fair, assuming that guy you really want is still there. Dealing with the Avs is tougher because with what they have now plus Kreider and the 4OA makes it very possible that their second round pick is in the 55 to 62 range. I think Arizona could make the playoffs with Krieder but they could stumble as well.
 
I think Kreider + 20 for 14 plus a 3rd round pick that becomes a second if he resigns is fair, assuming that guy you really want is still there. Dealing with the Avs is tougher because with what they have now plus Kreider and the 4OA makes it very possible that their second round pick is in the 55 to 62 range. I think Arizona could make the playoffs with Krieder but they could stumble as well.


No, that's not a fair deal for the Rangers. A 2nd round pick can get you from 20 to 14. Kreider has much more value than that.
 
Krieder +20 for 14 +2020 first?

Kreider for 16OA and conditional 2020 2nd that becomes a 1st if he re-signs. Otherwise, I’m holding on to Kreider until the trade deadline where he’ll bring back more than what Hayes did.

There is no reason to include Kreider in a deal to move up 6 draft slots when a 2nd and a late round pick up should suffice.
 
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After a little more work, I want add to Tomasino to the list of guys I'd be really interested in at #20. I know I'm not the first one to call him out, but I'd have him, Brink, Robertson, and Seider at the top of my wish list (assuming Harley, Kaliyev, and Broberg are gone - Seider might belong in this group now too). Tomasino has a ton of skill. He's an explosive skater who just blows by defenders like they are standing still. His hands are dirty. Between the legs passes, toe drags dekes, etc. He's got a shot that can beat goalies clean from a distance and he makes some pretty smart high end passes into tight spaces. He also has good work ethic and wins pucks in the dirty areas of the ice. He had a bunch of assists from behind the goal line.

It seems like the knock on him is, if he has all this skill, why didn't he score more? And the answer is: actually he did. He put up the 2nd most 5-on-5 points of draft eligibles in the CHL, the most 5-on-5 points per 60 of draft eligibles in the CHL, and the 2nd most 5-on-5 goals by a U18 player in the CHL. I think playing on a really good team can either magnify or suppress a player's production. In the case of Tomasino, he never got much power play time because he was behind Ben Jones, Jason Robertson, Akil Thomas, and Kirill Maximov, so even though he was the most productive draft eligible at 5-on-5, his point totals are comparable to less productive players. I might be misremembering, but I think 5-on-5 stats are more predictive than aggregate stats too.

Tomasino's also one of the youngest players in the draft with a late July birthday and seems to be developing at a rapid rate. He went from 0.4 ppg last year to 1.1 this year. I think this is potentially really important. I feel like a lot of prospect conversations center around the player's stats and skillset and stop there, but I think that misses one of the most important things about assessing prospects. Outside very small number of top picks, none of these guys are good enough to step in and become impact NHL players when they're drafted. Their value will be derived from the kind of player they become by the time they are when they're 22-25. So their work ethic, attitude, and ability to improve is just as important as the skillset they have today. I think the fact that Tomasino's production increased as much as it did is a good sign that he might be the kind of player who can improve at a high rate over time.

Separately, I know this is way different than the consensus opinion, but personally I would have the top OHL forwards above the top WHL forwards, even if you exclude Kaliyev. Tomasino, Suzuki, and Robertson put up similar numbers to Dach, Cozens, and Krebs, even though they are substantially younger and were in less favorable situations (except for Krebs). The OHL guys aren't as big, but I think size is overrated, and I'd argue that the OHL guys are more skilled. It's not like I think there's a massive difference, but if I were putting together a draft ranking I would have the OHL guys slightly in front of the WHL guys.

I like Tomasino too, I have been pushing for him for a while. I think his skating it right up there with the best of this draft class. My concern is more along the lines of his actual shot itself, he deeks around the goalies to score far more than he shoots it past them, although he has a shot, just not sure it's going to blow past NHL goalies. Other than that I see a guy who can skate, carry the puck, pass, has play making vision, some size, and seems pretty fearless.

To me he checks off all the boxes other than not sure wing or center, yet could say that about some of those higher on the lists too. Him being younger makes him even more interesting. He had some older players on his team and I think he was right up there with them if not better. Yet difficult to tell if those older guys were just facing the other teams better players more often.

I have a feeling my list is also going to be a little different than most, (I'm not quite ready to post it yet) but the top 10 or so is likely to be similar to most except I have Podkolzin not in it and I actually like Krebs and Boldy, yet after that I have Dorofeyev and Tomasino higher than many will, where Caufield, Kaliyev, Suzuki, Brink slip down a little. (I know you like Brink, I'm just not so sure I can get past his lesser skating compared to some of the others, not that technically it's poor, more so there seems to be some explosiveness missing there, similar to Hayes imo, not sure he has that change up gear, yet everything else seems to be there)

On a different note, among the D I do have a difficult time ranking them, Past Byram I like Broberg, York, Seider, Heinola, Bjornfot, Soderstrom, Harley, Thomson, Robertson yet I feel like I'm just kind of sticking them in based on other rankings, or their size, or production and it seems like a bad way to rank them. While I've tried to look (eyes) at each more, I feel like there are part of their games to like and not like. (I kind of wonder if that is normal, even in past NHL drafts there seems to be more missed good defender from later on in the drafts than there are missed forwards) I would not be totally surprised to see any of them or maybe even someone like Korczak, Johansson, Kokkonen, end up being the better pick in hindsight. Since I can not watch full games, or at least many of them, it seems like I'm missing way too much info there.
 
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I think Kreider + 20 for 14 plus a 3rd round pick that becomes a second if he resigns is fair, assuming that guy you really want is still there. Dealing with the Avs is tougher because with what they have now plus Kreider and the 4OA makes it very possible that their second round pick is in the 55 to 62 range. I think Arizona could make the playoffs with Krieder but they could stumble as well.

how is that fair? so you think that kreider is only worth 2 2nd round picks or a 2nd and 3rd if he doesn't sign? @Amazing Kreiderman posted the chart of all the draft pick trades, the cost to move up 4-6 spots is a 2nd rounder
 
how is that fair? so you think that kreider is only worth 2 2nd round picks or a 2nd and 3rd if he doesn't sign? @Amazing Kreiderman posted the chart of all the draft pick trades, the cost to move up 4-6 spots is a 2nd rounder

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I think the slots are relative to however the Rangers rank the prospects.

If they have a guy ranked early, and they move up to the slot to get him, they are not just moving up that number of slots, they are moving up to get a prospect they have ranked much earlier than whichever slot they traded up to.

So one could look at it in two ways


Rangers trade whatever to move up that many slots

Or

Rangers trade whatever to move up to get a prospect they had ranked in a earlier slot number than they moved up for.

For example, let's use Miller, they moved up 4 slots, from 26 to 22, yet if they had Miller ranked at #18, in one way they moved up from #26 to #18 on their rankings, which is 8 slots on their rankings.
 
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I think Kreider + 20 for 14 plus a 3rd round pick that becomes a second if he resigns is fair, assuming that guy you really want is still there. Dealing with the Avs is tougher because with what they have now plus Kreider and the 4OA makes it very possible that their second round pick is in the 55 to 62 range. I think Arizona could make the playoffs with Krieder but they could stumble as well.

Jeezus! That's as bad as it gets.
 
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Kreider for 16OA and conditional 2020 2nd that becomes a 1st if he re-signs. Otherwise, I’m holding on to Kreider until the trade deadline where he’ll bring back more than what Hayes did.
Agreed on the sentiment, but not the price. Kreider for 14OA & next year's first. Other than that, yeah, wait for next year's deadline and at a minimum get a Hayes-like return. Again, that is if he HAS to be traded.
 
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Maybe not fair but I think it's about all you get. I think he's worth more at the deadline when teams are desperate and there aren't free agents available in 10 days.

If "That's all your gonna get"...Run away!

Giving away 1 first line LW, with size and speed, AFFORDABLY Signed for full season, plus your 1st round pick to move up a few spots. sO #20's value is that of a 2nd rounder like mentioned.

Terrible asset management!
 
HELP NEEDED

I'm sorry for posting this here but as a father's Day gift, my son and I are going to go to the draft in Vancouver. However, in trying to make plans I can't find any start times for the draft. Does anyone know what the schedules are for the draft days?

Thanks in advance....and always draft BPA!
 
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