Dorion's biggest mistake in 2022...

[GCK]

Should have fired the coach in the summer when all those experienced coaches were available.

And promoted Jack Capuano ? Awful.

 

[Samsquanch]

I don't get what you're saying. On one hand you admit the rebuild is on the right track, and that PD did his job, but also say you're not defending him?

Like, yeah, I agree the new owners are probably bringing their own guys in, and that's totally fine. I agree it's probably needed from a PR perspective.

I just don't understand the freakish obsession people have with Dorion. You don't have to fall in a pro-Dorion or anti-Dorion camp. All I do is stick to the facts and the truth. The fact is, like you said, "he did his job". He pulled off one of the fastest most efficient scorched-earth rebuilds this league has ever seen. That can't be denied.

Yes I'm saying that he did his job properly. I like the team he built a lot.

And I'm also saying that defending him is a waste of my time as of today. Ive said all i can say in his defense, but thats not going to change a thing. He is 100% going to be replaced when new ownership comes in and it's for a variety of reasons, not just performance.

So yeah it sorts sucks for him, but anyone not blinded by rage can at least admit that he did a pretty damn good job, all things considered.

 

[GCK]

He's been in the AHL most of the year. I don't think is value was that high.

Basically I disagree but it's just an opinion so I respect yours.

Hextall said that they either wanted a young cheap forward or a young promising D who was still had waiver exemption so they wouldn’t lose POJ. Ty Smith fit the bill perfectly.

 

[stempniaksen]

And promoted Jack Capuano ? Awful.

I'm not pro-Capuano, but he's had more success at the NHL level than DJ. He may have made a difference to the team starting slow (again) if he had the reigns.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling this a playoff team with Cap, I just don't think they'd be discernably worse.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

And promoted Jack Capuano ? Awful.

Where does it say hire Jack?

"when all those experienced coaches were available." meaning one of Barry Trotz, Bruce Cassidy, Peter DeBoer, Rick Bowness, John Hynes etc"

 

[Micklebot]

Hextall said that they either wanted a young cheap forward or a young promising D who was still had waiver exemption so they wouldn’t lose POJ. Ty Smith fit the bill perfectly.

When did he say young promising D who still had waiver exemption, all I have found is forward or futures. I've seen lots of people claim he wanted a waiver exempt D, but haven't seen the quote. It makes sense that if he were to get a Dman, it had to be a waiver eligible guy since they had no room on the roster, but futures is a lot broader than that.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

All three organizations have had plenty of time and opportunity to build winners. Teams do rebuilds in 3 years that work. Just because one team has been doing it longer doesnt mean that he has done a good job.

I am not going to go through every single fail Dorion has had. It will take too long its well documented. But in summary here are the putrid returns he has had. Ill outline the really big ones.

Out: Stone, Zibanejad, Hoffman, Duchene, Demelo, Duclair, C Brown, N Paul - Nothing to show from any of them except for Joseph, Brannstrom, Merilainen and a 2nd round pick in 2024

In: Stepan, Gudbranson, Talbot, Zaitsev, Murray, Del Zotto, J Brown

Buy outs/Retention: Murray, White, Del Zotto

Big draft misses: JBD, Thompson, Jarventie, Boucher thats alot of draft capital to throw away.

Plenty of missed opportunities to have a way better team than hey do right now.

New Jersey is right there right now. They have a Sanderson level prospect coming and another top pairing D man in Nemec. Theyre going to be really good for a long time.

That's the best way to describe it. A lot of missed opportunities for sure.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think its fair to say the Sabres have turned it around quite well. They are on their 3rd GM (last one hired 2020) since 2014.
They've had their 2 top players want out of town have had to deal with that; also had to deal with Evander Kane.
They have 2 top Cs that many teams can be envious of and that can rival what the Sens have there. They have two top D that also rival what the Sens have.
They have a ton of cap flexibility.
Good young players graduated.
They have what seems to be a good coach in Don Granato and an outstanding prospect pool.

I think its fair to compliment them without getting into yah they should be good or they have been rebuilding for ever.. those things won't matter to the Sens going up against them for a playoff spot this year/ next year , and the following years. If we miss .. will it be well they should get in?

 

[GCK]

When did he say young promising D who still had waiver exemption, all I have found is forward or futures. I've seen lots of people claim he wanted a waiver exempt D, but haven't seen the quote. It makes sense that if he were to get a Dman, it had to be a waiver eligible guy since they had no room on the roster, but futures is a lot broader than that.

He said it during an interview after the trade.

Where does it say hire Jack?

"when all those experienced coaches were available." meaning one of Barry Trotz, Bruce Cassidy, Peter DeBoer, Rick Bowness, John Hynes etc"

Unless they came for free I don’t think the board would have given the green light.

 

[bicboi64]

Sabres have had numerous 1st overalls, an owner that isn't afraid to spend money and is willing to clean house, something that we haven't had. Having said that, the Skinner deal is going to hurt them for years to come, he'll never be worth his contract.

I wouldn't compare both organizations too much though, they've literally sucked for a decade plus. With enough shit throwing on the wall, something is bound to stick

 

[Micklebot]

He said it during an interview after the trade.

Wish I could find it because I couldn't find it around the time of the trade and haven't been able to find it since.

 

[Xspyrit]

Very fair assessment, just one comment & that was that C. Brown was going to go to free agency because he thought he would get more there.

This is based on? What Garrioch said in the medias?

We have an insider here that gave us some intel and we are ignoring it, for Garrioch sensationalism skills?

 

[Silky Johnson]

Probably need to free up cash to sign Timmy and Norris.

I think signing Norris to 8 years will be the mistake with the longest shadow.

I think Norris comes back next year and scores 40.

Kid is an insane natural athlete who I think will rehab very well.

Signing him and Stützle as a 1/2 combo will look great in hindsight.

Even if for some reason Josh's shoulder stays bad, it was still not a mistake. Injuries are unpredictable.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Dorion hater here. But.
1) The Tkachuk pick was really off the back of having to make a decision on picking that year or deferring.
2) They must be given full credit for identifying Brady.... I will assume, that they knew 1, 2 and 3 would unfold as they did. Thus they were somewhat sure that Brady was going to be available!

So on that one, as much as it hurts, we do have to give Dorion Credit.

The citizen did a similar thing 12 years ago for Brian Murray. I always though what a brilliant way to track a GM. Take every move and give him, a +1, 0 or -1.

2016.. a strike out. He f'd up big time ( so a -1)
2017..a double and a home run (FORMENTON AND BATHERSON) ( +1, +1)
2018.. a double and a strike out (brady AND JBD) (+1, -1)
2019...a strike out and a single (Thompson and Pinto) (-1, +1)
2020..a hit by pitch and a home run (Timmy and Sanderson) (0, +1)

Karlsson netted Norris. should have done better (-1)
Stone netted...well nothing (-1)
JGP...netted R. Greig... a minor positive (+1)
Zeb. netted nothing (-1)

Hire Boucher (0)
Hire DJ (0)

free agent signings (-1 on about 6 occasions)
Zub (+1)
Giroux (0)
The Cat for a #7 (-1)
Duchene (-1)
Hoffman (-1)

Total ~ -7

Not good.

Karlsson netted Norris and Stützle...

 

[Alex1234]

Biggest mistake is not retiring in 2018 no doubt

 

[Karl Prime]

Stutzle and Sanderson are still on ELCs, and these could very easily end up being the team MVPs when we are really competing for a cup. Teams like NJ and Buffalo are being led by their older young stars - and they should be ahead of the Senators if we can be realistic with our insanely high expectations.

Jack Hughes is the one guy on the Devils that's a cut above any Sens player right now and he's 21 - not that old. (Timmy might get there next season). Hischier is a first overall pick but he's not really much better than Brady. Bratt and Batherson are similar. Hamilton is better than Chabot but he really shouldn't be. Mercer was a decent hit in the 1st in 20, Ottawa hit on Sanderson big. They have Hughes and Nemec coming off top picks, but remember that the Sens could have had #4 in 2019, 10 in 2021, and 7 last year. (I think DeBrincat was a good trade - has it paid off? That's for the future to decide if they sign or trade him.) In an alternate universe the team has Byram and Lucius to add to their impressive pool of young talent.

But I don't think it's a fair thing to say "they've gotten more top picks therefore they should be better." We are talking about a team with Tkachuk, Stutzle, Giroux, Norris, Batherson, DeBrincat, Chabot, Sanderson, and Zub. There was a lot of optimism going into this season that things would be better. In some respects they have been, and in some it's just the same old from the previous four years. Ultimately we don't know what would have happened this season if Norris was healthy, but Dorion failed to make his team better after those core pieces in the way that Fitzgerald and Adams didn't.

 

[Beech]

Karlsson netted Norris and Stützle...

it did, as the accident to end all accidents.

We debated this at length on here over the last 5 years. No one, could have foreseen a Shark's collapse.

So, yea, Stuzle...but if we are going to give Dorion credit for an accident, we must condemn for a misfortune!! If Josh Norris' career is over, Dorion must wear that!

Accident aside, the trade was for Norris and a 1st in 2020 and a 2nd in 2021.
The Sharks' average finish in 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 was 11th, 6th and 11th...so average ~ 9th . Draft ~ 24th.

the 20th-26th pick in the 2020 draft has produced: nothing so far. All are minor leaguers. All are 21 and still have time.
the 55-60 pick in 2021 (Where the 2nd rounder from San J would be) has produced one guy so far. He is looking good in Arizone.

 

[Beech]

That's a really dumb system, imo, but I'm gonna adapt it and do this for Dorion. Would be fun to see other people's takes, too. @Micklebot, would that warrant a new thread? Or to be posted in here, or elsewhere?

well, did you do one?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

well, did you do one?

Not yet

 

[Beech]

So you're saying that they were biased favourably but your assessment was accurate and fair?

what I am saying is; the author. A sport's writer for the shrinking and soon to die Post Media..One who has championed B. Murray for the HOF, is and was kissing ass.

And his highly successful report card produced:
11 seasons. 8 out of the playoffs, 3 series wins. Those are the remanence of the Murray years. Another words: SHIT. But again, ass kissing. A more neutral evaluator, would have failed Murray. Or been slightly less favorable.

But the real point is: As generous as the Citizen was in their scoring, it does not change the method or mean. It is in fact, good.

A +1, 0, -1 score. And an evaluation of every move. Can assign a numerical value to performance....Analytics for GMs.

My assessment of Murray was way more fair then the Citizen's. I had no job to protect, no media buffet to access. No charter to ride on. No ass to kiss. If done today by post media. what score do they produce? a severe minus? HMMM! I honestly cannot remember, who was left off the Senators charter? Oh wait a Citizen reporter.

I would love to have a media member from another city, evaluate a GM...and then compare against the local media. It may be hugely different. It is why fired GMs often struggle to find work again. They are seen from a more neutral regard by the outside. No asses to kiss.

 

[Samsquanch]

Jack Hughes is the one guy on the Devils that's a cut above any Sens player right now and he's 21 - not that old. (Timmy might get there next season). Hischier is a first overall pick but he's not really much better than Brady. Bratt and Batherson are similar. Hamilton is better than Chabot but he really shouldn't be. Mercer was a decent hit in the 1st in 20, Ottawa hit on Sanderson big. They have Hughes and Nemec coming off top picks, but remember that the Sens could have had #4 in 2019, 10 in 2021, and 7 last year. (I think DeBrincat was a good trade - has it paid off? That's for the future to decide if they sign or trade him.) In an alternate universe the team has Byram and Lucius to add to their impressive pool of young talent.

But I don't think it's a fair thing to say "they've gotten more top picks therefore they should be better." We are talking about a team with Tkachuk, Stutzle, Giroux, Norris, Batherson, DeBrincat, Chabot, Sanderson, and Zub. There was a lot of optimism going into this season that things would be better. In some respects they have been, and in some it's just the same old from the previous four years. Ultimately we don't know what would have happened this season if Norris was healthy, but Dorion failed to make his team better after those core pieces in the way that Fitzgerald and Adams didn't.

I'm saying the players that are leading the Devils are all 1 year older than the Sens young stars. They were drafted 1 season ahead of the Sens players. It's not a feelings thing, it's a fact.

Last season the Devils and Buffalo were exactly where the Sens are today. Maybe even a little worse.

I'm willing to give the Sens core 1 more season before declaring that NJ and Buffalo and their success this season is any sort of indicator that the Sens are behind schedule.

 

[BondraTime]

The Devils literally acquired their entire top 4 in the past 2 years through trades or signings, that's what's led to their huge step, along with the emergence of their top C's.

If we can add a Graves, Seigenthaler, Hamilton and Marino to supplement our core (we've added Zub), we'd be golden.

 

[Salva Mea]

rush rebuild.. focking brain... bedard draft year and you just finish rebuild ( which is not complete ? ).. wait one more year.. top 4 are crazy good and potential superstar ... now we add some medium yager sale dvorsky , who need 3-4 year.. and its also unknow what they will play

not add RHD

coach

without surgery norris..

talbot

 

[Micklebot]

The Devils literally acquired their entire top 4 in the past 2 years through trades or signings, that's what's led to their huge step, along with the emergence of their top C's.

If we can add a Graves, Seigenthaler, Hamilton and Marino to supplement our core (we've added Zub), we'd be golden.

NJD have 5 D all getting 17+ mins at 5v5 per game (partially because Marino was out for 17 games but still), that kind of depth is nuts.

The other big thing is they went from bottom of the league goaltending with a carousel of 7 goalies getting starts (thx to lots of injuries if I recall) to very stable goaltending with vanacek as the clear cut starter ahead of Blackwood.

 

[Beech]

The Devils literally acquired their entire top 4 in the past 2 years through trades or signings, that's what's led to their huge step, along with the emergence of their top C's.

If we can add a Graves, Seigenthaler, Hamilton and Marino to supplement our core (we've added Zub), we'd be golden.

We don't anything. They do. Unless you are part of the Sens' organization.

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