Dorion's biggest mistake in 2022...

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal, but it was another public embarrassment at a time when it just wasn't needed. You can say some shit about your boss at the bar, but if you go home and send the same stuff in a work e-mail you're probably getting fired. How many dipshits have been fired for posting something about their boss or employer on social media?

They had to do something, and it was the depth guys who were gonna eat it. The weight was never going to fall on young guys like Chabot, White an Formenton. Chris Wideman was traded within 2 weeks of the video leaking. DeMelo was out the door shortly after without even an attempt at a negotiation. Duchene was gone as well, but he wasn't extending here anyway.

He wasn't replaced adequately though, that's for sure. Chabot has pretty much stunk without him.

Ya some good points. The state of the team and all the drama probably drove the bus on some of those decisions in the aftermath of it. Unfortunate circumstances as that was a very normal fun time for the boys on the way home after a good night, it wasn't some egregious act that deserved punishment. But, like you say, you get caught on tape or in writing and it's a different ball game.

I remember a lot of commentary about how out of line they were and that part I never understood.

 

[Ouroboros]

Ya some good points. The state of the team and all the drama probably drove the bus on some of those decisions in the aftermath of it. Unfortunate circumstances as that was a very normal fun time for the boys on the way home after a good night, it wasn't some egregious act that deserved punishment. But, like you say, you get caught on tape or in writing and it's a different ball game.

I remember a lot of commentary about how out of line they were and that part I never understood.

They could have avoided the whole thing by just tipping the driver like a normal multi-millionaire.

 

[swiftwin]

His entire body of work will be judged. The fact that teams like Buffalo, L.A and NJ have way better prospect pools and are better teams right now is daming proof he has done a piss poor job. Especially starting with the assets he did.

Lmfao. Both Buffalo and NJ have been rebuilding longer than we have and had multiple 1OA picks to work with. They better damn well be ahead of us in their rebuilds. Heck, NJ barely had to tank, they got two lucky long-odd lottery wins. Yet this is the first time they're in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Buffalo is barely ahead of us, despite being pretty healthy all year, unlike us.

The only reason our prospect pool is "weak" is because so many players have graduated to the Sens in the last couple of years, but are still too young to be impactful enough. Moving the pick for DeBrincat also obviously had an impact here.

Your obsession with Dorion is leading you to have a piss poor analysis here.

 

[Beech]

Lmfao. Both Buffalo and NJ have been rebuilding longer than we have and had multiple 1OA picks to work with. They better damn well be ahead of us in their rebuilds. Heck, NJ barely had to tank, they got two lucky long-odd lottery wins. Yet this is the first time they're in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Buffalo is barely ahead of us, despite being pretty healthy all year, unlike us.

The only reason our prospect pool is "weak" is because so many players have graduated to the Sens in the last couple of years, but are still too young to be impactful enough. Moving the pick for DeBrincat also obviously had an impact here.

Your obsession with Dorion is leading you to have a piss poor analysis here.

there have been a lot of mistakes.

(A repeat for the 3rd time) The Citizen did an analysis of B Murray back in 2011 or 2012. They documented all his moves and gave a +1, 0 or -1. Generously, they totaled up to a plus result. I redid and got a minus total. But that is neither here or there.

Anyway, a summary of Dorion's roughly 100 moves, would most likely be well in the negatives. And so after 7 years, a net score in the negatives is damning!! Even a near zero or only slightly positive is actually poor.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Your obsession with Dorion is leading you to have a piss poor analysis here.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

They could have avoided the whole thing by just tipping the driver like a normal multi-millionaire.

Lol, touche. Is that sarcasm or was that an aspect to the story that they'd shit tipped that led to Mr. Uber putting it out?

 

[Ouroboros]

Lol, touche. Is that sarcasm or was that an aspect to the story that they'd shit tipped that led to Mr. Uber putting it out?

It's what was reported at the time. From Friedman...

According to one source, the driver was upset about a tip. Prior to last weekend, he began tweeting the video at reporters, writing the players were “cheap entitled kids.”

 

[swiftwin]

there have been a lot of mistakes.

(A repeat for the 3rd time) The Citizen did an analysis of B Murray back in 2011 or 2012. They documented all his moves and gave a +1, 0 or -1. Generously, they totaled up to a plus result. I redid and got a minus total. But that is neither here or there.

Anyway, a summary of Dorion's roughly 100 moves, would most likely be well in the negatives. And so after 7 years, a net score in the negatives is damning!! Even a near zero or only slightly positive is actually poor.

You can repeat it as many times as you want. I don't care what the Ottawa Citizen did 12 years ago. That's a really really stupid system. Especially when you say stuff like: Karlsson netted Norris. should have done better (-1).

 

[Beech]

You can repeat it as many times as you want. I don't care what the Ottawa Citizen did 12 years ago. That's a really really stupid system. Especially when you say stuff like: Karlsson netted Norris. should have done better (-1).

A 2 time Norris trophy winner. Gets a single player. Yes Josh Norris is good. Not Norris trophy caliber good. And even uninjured, he was plateauing at a 75 point man.

Karlsson is generational talent. May hit a 100 points today. Was robbed of a 3rd Norris 2 years before his departure from Ottawa. Will Josh Norris win any award? Heck at this rate, will he play again?

What do you think the return should be on Cale Makar? a Josh Norris. See if Colorado would trade? in fact see if a Cale Makar, Bardy Tkachuk trade is okay with Colorado? See if a Cale Makar for Brady and Josh is okay?

Dorion's, Stone, Karlsson, Hoffman, Pageau trades have summed up to: a net zero if not a net -1 or more. Add Duchene, add Zebinajad (sorry about the spelling). Add Ceci to get Zietsev. Add Paul to get Joseph.

Dorion's minuses become unsurmountable.

it is a bit of a struggle to go through Dorion's trades and see many pluses. Do we want to discuss his FA signings??? How is Michael Del Zoto doing? Dadinov is????

you better hope his drafts all graduate to elite levels. They have a whole lot of pro side miscues to overcome.

Enjoy your evening Swiftwin.

 

[bert]

Lmfao. Both Buffalo and NJ have been rebuilding longer than we have and had multiple 1OA picks to work with. They better damn well be ahead of us in their rebuilds. Heck, NJ barely had to tank, they got two lucky long-odd lottery wins. Yet this is the first time they're in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Buffalo is barely ahead of us, despite being pretty healthy all year, unlike us.

The only reason our prospect pool is "weak" is because so many players have graduated to the Sens in the last couple of years, but are still too young to be impactful enough. Moving the pick for DeBrincat also obviously had an impact here.

Your obsession with Dorion is leading you to have a piss poor analysis here.

Your unexplainable love to defend everything Dorion does dispite the track record is the only 'piss poor' analysis. They have no prospect depth because he burnt so many assets on bad players. Imagine excusing the Brown trade when they got a 2nd. While they traded a 2nd for Stepan. Open your eyes.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's what was reported at the time. From Friedman...

Ha, cheapskates. I guess I either forgot or missed that at the time.

 

[swiftwin]

A 2 time Norris trophy winner. Gets a single player. Yes Josh Norris is good. Not Norris trophy caliber good. And even uninjured, he was plateauing at a 75 point man.

You need to go look at the trade again if you think Josh Norris is the only thing we got for Karlsson.

 

[Samsquanch]

I'm over defending Dorion simply for the fact that it's so obvious that from a PR stand-point the new owners are going to clean house when they take over. It's just the most obvious first move.

But aside from the numerous mistakes, I'm not going to forget that he built a sick team that's on the cusp of breaking out in a huge way. I like this team and the core players. And the 5 year turnaround from a scorched earth rebuild after a deep playoff run is a completely acceptable performance in my mind.

If this years team had been healthy and had a full time Norris and Formenton, and had more consistent goaltending (lol at anyone who pretends they can predict how it goes for these savants) - you can't tell me it's not at least 4pts better today. Maybe more. And that's a team in the playoffs hunt. Not in - but right where they should be.

Stutzle and Sanderson are still on ELCs, and these could very easily end up being the team MVPs when we are really competing for a cup. Teams like NJ and Buffalo are being led by their older young stars - and they should be ahead of the Senators if we can be realistic with our insanely high expectations. Even Detroit is not what they seem, and they aren't being led by a group of young stars at all. Their core is so much messier to define going forward.

Point being is that we are so lucky to have the team we do - and yeah it seems like a positive thing to have a new and more experienced group of managers to come take it from here. And I don't get all the insane levels of hate that some folks harbor towards PD. He did his job.

 

[swiftwin]

I'm over defending Dorion simply for the fact that it's so obvious that from a PR stand-point the new owners are going to clean house when they take over. It's just the most obvious first move.

But aside from the numerous mistakes, I'm not going to forget that he built a sick team that's on the cusp of breaking out in a huge way. I like this team and the core players. And the 5 year turnaround from a scorched earth rebuild after a deep playoff run is a completely acceptable performance in my mind.

If this years team had been healthy and had a full time Norris and Formenton, and had more consistent goaltending (lol at anyone who pretends they can predict how it goes for these savants) - you can't tell me it's not at least 4pts better today. Maybe more. And that's a team in the playoffs hunt. Not in - but right where they should be.

Stutzle and Sanderson are still on ELCs, and these could very easily end up being the team MVPs when we are really competing for a cup. Teams like NJ and Buffalo are being led by their older young stars - and they should be ahead of the Senators if we can be realistic with our insanely high expectations. Even Detroit is not what they seem, and they aren't being led by a group of young stars at all. Their core is so much messier to define going forward.

Point being is that we are so lucky to have the team we do - and yeah it seems like a positive thing to have a new and more experienced group of managers to come take it from here. And I don't get all the insane levels of hate that some folks harbor towards PD. He did his job.

I don't get what you're saying. On one hand you admit the rebuild is on the right track, and that PD did his job, but also say you're not defending him?

Like, yeah, I agree the new owners are probably bringing their own guys in, and that's totally fine. I agree it's probably needed from a PR perspective.

I just don't understand the freakish obsession people have with Dorion. You don't have to fall in a pro-Dorion or anti-Dorion camp. All I do is stick to the facts and the truth. The fact is, like you said, "he did his job". He pulled off one of the fastest most efficient scorched-earth rebuilds this league has ever seen. That can't be denied.

 

[bert]

I don't get what you're saying. On one hand you admit the rebuild is on the right track, and that PD did his job, but also say you're not defending him?

Like, yeah, I agree the new owners are probably bringing their own guys in, and that's totally fine. I agree it's probably needed from a PR perspective.

I just don't understand the freakish obsession people have with Dorion. You don't have to fall in a pro-Dorion or anti-Dorion camp. All I do is stick to the facts and the truth. The fact is, like you said, "he did his job". He pulled off one of the fastest most efficient scorched-earth rebuilds this league has ever seen. That can't be denied.

They're a lottery team again with nothing in the prospect pipeline after missing the playoffs for 6 straight years. What are you talking about?!

 

[JD1]

His entire body of work will be judged. The fact that teams like Buffalo, L.A and NJ have way better prospect pools and are better teams right now is daming proof he has done a piss poor job. Especially starting with the assets he did.


B.S Joseph plays both wings. This teams terrible depth, lack of speed up front are some of the reasons they're a lottery team again. Brown was the worst move knowing they won't have Formenton.

LA is not better. They're in purgatory, stuck between two worlds. Legacy contracts to legacy players ensures they aren't terrible but they're clearly not good enough to compete either.

Buffalo has missed the playoffs for over a decade and has two 1OA defencemen in a league where you build from the back out. They also had stars in Eichel and O'Reilly that they traded. I agree they're in great shape but you know the league as well as I do and if you wish to be fair in your assessment you'd acknowledge these things.

And NJ has missed the playoffs forever too. They've had 6 top 7 picks in the last 8 years, including two 1OAs. They're much further along than we are.

You regularly post our two best players are 21, which I completely agree with. You also post you can't rush things, which I also completely agree with.

Now, look at what you're comparing. Us to two teams much further along, both of whom have two 1OAs in their lineups.

Wouldn't you think it's fair to believe that these two teams should be a little ahead of us? By your own statements - best players are 21 and can't rush things - them being ahead of us is the only real logical conclusion

In 2011 or 2012 the Citizen worte a fantastic piece on B Murray. It documented his roughly 50 moves and gave him a +1, 0 or -1.

They were generous and ended up at a net plus number. When I redid it, I ended up at minus number.

It would be fantastic to track Dorion's roughly 100 moves and grade them that way and see.

I did a small amount and ended up around -7. Then I remembered another 1/2 dozen moves...

Dorion's score may be closer to -10 or so. Maybe worse.

So you're saying that they were biased favourably but your assessment was accurate and fair?

 

[bert]

LA is not better. They're in purgatory, stuck between two worlds. Legacy contracts to legacy players ensures they aren't terrible but they're clearly not good enough to compete either.

Buffalo has missed the playoffs for over a decade and has two 1OA defencemen in a league where you build from the back out. They also had stars in Eichel and O'Reilly that they traded. I agree they're in great shape but you know the league as well as I do and if you wish to be fair in your assessment you'd acknowledge these things.

And NJ has missed the playoffs forever too. They've had 6 top 7 picks in the last 8 years, including two 1OAs. They're much further along than we are.

You regularly post our two best players are 21, which I completely agree with. You also post you can't rush things, which I also completely agree with.

Now, look at what you're comparing. Us to two teams much further along, both of whom have two 1OAs in their lineups.

Wouldn't you think it's fair to believe that these two teams should be a little ahead of us? By your own statements - best players are 21 and can't rush things - them being ahead of us is the only real logical conclusion


So you're saying that they were biased favourably but your assessment was accurate and fair?

L.A made the playoffs last year and are in a playoff spot right now. They smoked Ottawa when they played them this year. They're better. They have a better prospect pool.

Buffalo is better with a way way way better prospect pool. I didn't ask if they've had more first overalls they have but they also have a better team and a much brighter future.

Again NJ is a much better team. With again a way better prospect pool.

At the end of the day its a results oriented business. Dorion has had ample opportunity to build something great. He had 6 years to rebuild and traded a bunch of stars in their primes lets not act like he hasnt had alot to work with. He either traded or blew 3 of the teams first rounders. That's on him. He blew a bunch of assets on terrible players. He was unable to identify any of the good veterans they developed or fell into. Everyone wants a top 4 d man. Demelo who was good he traded for a 3rd. Chychrun is there but this team doesn't have the prospect depth to trade for him because of a piss poorly managed team.

Dorion is a gonner and for good reason. One scandal or issue after the next. The only thing I can deduct from all of this is you think he's done a good job or you want him back. If not then why make the effort?

I can't wait for a new GM. There are some great pieces in place snhe he has has made some good moves but overall the body of work over 6 years has been really bad. Way more misses than hits.

 

[Crosside]

L.A made the playoffs last year and are in a playoff spot right now. They smoked Ottawa when they played them this year. They're better. They have a better prospect pool.

Buffalo is better with a way way way better prospect pool. I didn't ask if they've had more first overalls they have but they also have a better team and a much brighter future.

Again NJ is a much better team. With again a way better prospect pool.

At the end of the day its a results oriented business. Dorion has had ample opportunity to build something great. He had 6 years to rebuild and traded a bunch of stars in their primes lets not act like he hasnt had alot to work with. He either traded or blew 3 of the teams first rounders. That's on him. He blew a bunch of assets on terrible players. He was unable to identify any of the good veterans they developed or fell into. Everyone wants a top 4 d man. Demelo who was good he traded for a 3rd. Chychrun is there but this team doesn't have the prospect depth to trade for him because of a piss poorly managed team.

Dorion is a gonner and for good reason. One scandal or issue after the next. The only thing I can deduct from all of this is you think he's done a good job or you want him back. If not then why make the effort?

I can't wait for a new GM. There are some great pieces in place snhe he has has made some good moves but overall the body of work over 6 years has been really bad. Way more misses than hits.

He have to do that with not a easy owner. I would like to see more of summer of Pierre before evaluating his job

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

there have been a lot of mistakes.

(A repeat for the 3rd time) The Citizen did an analysis of B Murray back in 2011 or 2012. They documented all his moves and gave a +1, 0 or -1. Generously, they totaled up to a plus result. I redid and got a minus total. But that is neither here or there.

Anyway, a summary of Dorion's roughly 100 moves, would most likely be well in the negatives. And so after 7 years, a net score in the negatives is damning!! Even a near zero or only slightly positive is actually poor.

That's a really dumb system, imo, but I'm gonna adapt it and do this for Dorion. Would be fun to see other people's takes, too. @Micklebot, would that warrant a new thread? Or to be posted in here, or elsewhere?

 

[Micklebot]

That's a really dumb system, imo, but I'm gonna adapt it and do this for Dorion. Would be fun to see other people's takes, too. @Micklebot, would that warrant a new thread? Or to be posted in here, or elsewhere?

Especially If you want to do it for multiple GMs I'd recommend another thread, could be fun...

If just doing it for Dorion there's probably a thread to already works, otherwise have at it and make a new one.

 

[JD1]

L.A made the playoffs last year and are in a playoff spot right now. They smoked Ottawa when they played them this year. They're better. They have a better prospect pool.

Buffalo is better with a way way way better prospect pool. I didn't ask if they've had more first overalls they have but they also have a better team and a much brighter future.

Again NJ is a much better team. With again a way better prospect pool.

At the end of the day its a results oriented business. Dorion has had ample opportunity to build something great. He had 6 years to rebuild and traded a bunch of stars in their primes lets not act like he hasnt had alot to work with. He either traded or blew 3 of the teams first rounders. That's on him. He blew a bunch of assets on terrible players. He was unable to identify any of the good veterans they developed or fell into. Everyone wants a top 4 d man. Demelo who was good he traded for a 3rd. Chychrun is there but this team doesn't have the prospect depth to trade for him because of a piss poorly managed team.

Dorion is a gonner and for good reason. One scandal or issue after the next. The only thing I can deduct from all of this is you think he's done a good job or you want him back. If not then why make the effort?

I can't wait for a new GM. There are some great pieces in place snhe he has has made some good moves but overall the body of work over 6 years has been really bad. Way more misses than hits.

I'm kind of indifferent to a new GM. I think that's the most likely outcome and I won't be disappointed

But the two teams you cited have been worse for far longer, have depth coming from years of high end drafting and both have two 1OAs in the lineup. They SHOULD be better right now

That's the point I'm making.

Buffalo has Thompson and Tuch. From trading away O'Reilly and Eichel. O'Reilly was traded with term on a decent deal. And promptly won a conn Smythe. And two 1OAs. The only thing they've got that would look good in our lineup is peterka and he's not exactly burning it up there with all the firepower they have. Call selecting Jarventie a mistake I guess but that's not going to change what Buffalo has. Ya, we could have had peterka but does that change things?

In Jersey, they have two 1OA centres and we're able to sign a guy like Hamilton which isn't happening here.

Ya, right now they're better than us. They should be too.

If you think they shouldn't be, feel free to lay out a case for why.

 

[bert]

I'm kind of indifferent to a new GM. I think that's the most likely outcome and I won't be disappointed

But the two teams you cited have been worse for far longer, have depth coming from years of high end drafting and both have two 1OAs in the lineup. They SHOULD be better right now

That's the point I'm making.

Buffalo has Thompson and Tuch. From trading away O'Reilly and Eichel. O'Reilly was traded with term on a decent deal. And promptly won a conn Smythe. And two 1OAs. The only thing they've got that would look good in our lineup is peterka and he's not exactly burning it up there with all the firepower they have. Call selecting Jarventie a mistake I guess but that's not going to change what Buffalo has. Ya, we could have had peterka but does that change things?

In Jersey, they have two 1OA centres and we're able to sign a guy like Hamilton which isn't happening here.

Ya, right now they're better than us. They should be too.

If you think they shouldn't be, feel free to lay out a case for why.

Only 1 team can Win the Cup. I dont care how long they have been doing it for Dorion has had 6 YEARS. SIX. Traded a bunch of stars in their primes that is plenty of time. They should have a stocked prospect cupboard and they do not.

I think Ottawa is right there without so many of the bad moves Dorion has made. There is a laundry list of them. They have been discussed over and over again. I brought up the top 4 d position. Just two examples of why they dont have one when they easily could. How he wasted 3 top 10 picks out of the 6 years of futility.

Again he has made some good moves but the bad ones outweigh them mightily.

We can agree to dissagree but the results speak for themselves.

 

[JD1]

Only 1 team can Win the Cup. I dont care how long they have been doing it for Dorion has had 6 YEARS. SIX. Traded a bunch of stars in their primes that is plenty of time. They should have a stocked prospect cupboard and they do not.

I think Ottawa is right there without so many of the bad moves Dorion has made. There is a laundry list of them. They have been discussed over and over again. I brought up the top 4 d position. Just two examples of why they dont have one when they easily could. How he wasted 3 top 10 picks out of the 6 years of futility.

Again he has made some good moves but the bad ones outweigh them mightily.

We can agree to dissagree but the results speak for themselves.

But you still won't take on the task of laying out why Buffalo and NJD shouldn't be ahead of us.

Do that.

Only 1 team can Win the Cup. I dont care how long they have been doing it for Dorion has had 6 YEARS. SIX. Traded a bunch of stars in their primes that is plenty of time. They should have a stocked prospect cupboard and they do not.

I think Ottawa is right there without so many of the bad moves Dorion has made. There is a laundry list of them. They have been discussed over and over again. I brought up the top 4 d position. Just two examples of why they dont have one when they easily could. How he wasted 3 top 10 picks out of the 6 years of futility.

Again he has made some good moves but the bad ones outweigh them mightily.

We can agree to dissagree but the results speak for themselves.

I also think Buffalo has a great cup chance possibly as early as next year. NJD not so much.

 

[bert]

But you still won't take on the task of laying out why Buffalo and NJD shouldn't be ahead of us.

Do that.


I also think Buffalo has a great cup chance possibly as early as next year. NJD not so much.

All three organizations have had plenty of time and opportunity to build winners. Teams do rebuilds in 3 years that work. Just because one team has been doing it longer doesnt mean that he has done a good job.

I am not going to go through every single fail Dorion has had. It will take too long its well documented. But in summary here are the putrid returns he has had. Ill outline the really big ones.

Out: Stone, Zibanejad, Hoffman, Duchene, Demelo, Duclair, C Brown, N Paul - Nothing to show from any of them except for Joseph, Brannstrom, Merilainen and a 2nd round pick in 2024

In: Stepan, Gudbranson, Talbot, Zaitsev, Murray, Del Zotto, J Brown

Buy outs/Retention: Murray, White, Del Zotto

Big draft misses: JBD, Thompson, Jarventie, Boucher thats alot of draft capital to throw away.

Plenty of missed opportunities to have a way better team than hey do right now.

New Jersey is right there right now. They have a Sanderson level prospect coming and another top pairing D man in Nemec. Theyre going to be really good for a long time.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm kind of indifferent to a new GM. I think that's the most likely outcome and I won't be disappointed

But the two teams you cited have been worse for far longer, have depth coming from years of high end drafting and both have two 1OAs in the lineup. They SHOULD be better right now

That's the point I'm making.

Buffalo has Thompson and Tuch. From trading away O'Reilly and Eichel. O'Reilly was traded with term on a decent deal. And promptly won a conn Smythe. And two 1OAs. The only thing they've got that would look good in our lineup is peterka and he's not exactly burning it up there with all the firepower they have. Call selecting Jarventie a mistake I guess but that's not going to change what Buffalo has. Ya, we could have had peterka but does that change things?

In Jersey, they have two 1OA centres and we're able to sign a guy like Hamilton which isn't happening here.

Ya, right now they're better than us. They should be too.

If you think they shouldn't be, feel free to lay out a case for why.

I don't think having been bad for longer = should be better, how long you avoid that squishy middle is probably the key.

I mean, we are 2nd worst win % since the ECF run, 6th worst if you extend to the first playoff miss under MacLean, but we have 5 consecutive finishes under 75 pts, or pace. That's typically going to get you drafting top 10 or better.


LA doesn't have a lot of time drafting high, they were averaging the exact same pace as us from 2014-15 the year after winning the cup, to 2017 the season we went on the ECF run, were they bad and we were good at that point? Since then they have had more pts than us in every season but one.

So, has LA actually been bad for longer than us? Idk about that.

Buffalo has a stronger case of being bad for longer, but they have 6 seasons since 2007-08 where they finished at a pace at or below 75 pts. Lots of time in that squishy middle is why it took them so long, a bunch of false starts if you will. And yes, they got a good return on O'Reilly, but they also gave up a ton to get him (which admittedly didntpan out). It's a bit like us trading for and subsequently leading away Duchene, only they came out on top and we didn't.