Dorion's biggest mistake in 2022...

[Do Make Say Think]

That's funny. I definitely remember pages and pages of people shitting on Dorion for picking Tkachuk instead of Zadina because it was stupid to pick Tkachuk because of his "intangibles". But now today, Claude f***ing Giroux signs here as a free agent, specifically citing Tkachuk's intangibles as a reason to want to sign here, and somehow Dorion had nothing to do with that? That's rich.

I can't help it if your contrarian streak makes you blind to the fact that Tkachuk was clearly BPA, that 99% of GMs would have picked him and we were incredibly lucky that that 1% of idiot was working in MTL at the time.

The best assets we have, Dorion had very little to do with. He did get a good return for Karlsson but he has also made a ton of awful trades so it all washes out.

Dorion is a bad GM. His track record is established.

 

[Karl Prime]

I'm sure if there was HFboards around in 1993 then there would have been a ton of people thrilled about getting Daigle, and there would be those that wanted Pronger. Then five years later it would have been a "told you so" fight that never ended.

There certainly was some negativity around Brady because of his style, and soon after all of his detractors bit the dust and became happy they picked him. We're fans, we can be reactionary, obviously. I was skeptical of him at first and was happy to see he was great soon after. I wish they had him 20 years ago. We are also lucky Montreal didn't take Brady and then Ottawa take Kotkaniemi instead of Hughes, because then Dorion would have been the bozo instead of Bergevin.

And hell, the best part of the Karlsson trade was keeping a protected pick off the first rounder, though Wilson probably never even considered it - SJ's fall that season to 3rd last was quite unexpected of course. Even if they were bound to fall off at some point, no one thought it would be that far. And even then, the way the standings worked out really benefited Ottawa a lot. Had SJ had the points percentage they had in 19-20 in 2021-22, Ottawa gets 7th overall - picking Holtz, Quinn, Rossi, Perfetti, or Lundell, but they are no Stutzle. (3rd worst P% in 19-20 was .450, last season Ottawa was 7th at .445.)

Also we can't have a discussion on Dorion without talking about the miscalculation that was the Duchene trade. Without it they might have had Byram, Turcotte, or Cozens (dunno if they would have taken Seider).

 

[bert]

If y'all are going to criticize Dorion for Duchene, Stone and others not wanting to extend here, you have to give him credit for Giroux liking Brady and the core enough to want to sign here. That double standard is ridiculous.

Come on you know why he signed here. Has nothing to do with the GM. It's not the same thing as making terrible trades.

 

[Tuna99]

It's a little know-fact that Claude Giroux is also really high on Filip Zadina's intangibles so it would have worked out regardless.

I love this post. Should be framed in the HFboards office Hall of Fame

 

[Micklebot]

That's funny. I definitely remember pages and pages of people shitting on Dorion for picking Tkachuk instead of Zadina because it was stupid to pick Tkachuk because of his "intangibles". But now today, Claude f***ing Giroux signs here as a free agent, specifically citing Tkachuk's intangibles as a reason to want to sign here, and somehow Dorion had nothing to do with that? That's rich.

Tkachuck was devisive, but he was taken where he was expected to go aside from MTL skipping over him. He was BPA according to McKenzie's list.

Stü was again BPA according to Bob's list.

Credit for Sanderson who was ranked a couple spots lower, lots of good options had we gone another direction but I think Sanderson was still the best option

Greig was ranked a few spots higher than we picked him, but that's at the point of the draft where lists vary a fair bit.

Pinto turned into a good pick, again at a point where lists diverge, he was taken a dozen spots ahead of bobs rank.

On the flip side some guys that haven't really loved up to their draft spot to date,

Thomson was taken a dozen spots early, ranked 30 by bob. Bjornfoot, Tomasino, Kaliyev were all good options available

Boucher taken well ahead of Bobs list, a bit early to draw conclusions here and it's been debated to death

JBD taken almost two dozen spots early, K'andre Miller was the clear cut choice before we traded back, Sandin and Veleno would likely have been among the safer BPA picks using Bob's list after the trade.

Drafting in the first round has certainly been a mixed bag. If you're going to credit him for picking guys that were BPA, or in the range thereof, you can certainly be critical of going off the board too.

Either way though, I think a bit of patience is required before closing the books on some of the picks.

 

[NyQuil]

I don’t understand why some people are allergic to giving him credit for some of the good moves that he made.

So what?

If his bad moves outnumber or outweigh this good moves, he’s still a bad GM.

It doesn’t mean you have to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to give credit to everyone but him for something that worked out.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Definitely not. Ty Smith had significantly more value than any of those pieces. They wanted a cost controlled asset that has proven he could play in the league to replace Marino.

There were no shortage of big mistakes by Dorion. The biggest by far was the error on the Formenton situation and the moves that followed. Trading Connor Brown for a 2nd when you knew you werent going to have him.

Other massive mistakes were trading Gustavsson for Talbot. Not signing Paul, then flipping him for a way worse player and paying him the same.

Yes not acquiring a top 4 d man was bad but its not as easy as people may believe.

Not changing coachs after the 7 game losing streak also a big mistake.

I find it hard to criticize gms for trades they didn't make. We don't have enough info about these things to say a trade could have been made one way or the other.

It's possible that Ty Smith was the player they wanted, and the only way they'd make a trade with ottawa is for an asset the sens weren't comfortable giving up.

Lots of reasons to critize dorion. The Paul trade, the gus trade.... hypotheticals aren't needed in that.

 

[Micklebot]

I don’t understand why some people are allergic to giving him credit for some of the good moves that he made.

So what?

If his bad moves outnumber or outweigh this good moves, he’s still a bad GM.

It doesn’t mean you have to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to give credit to everyone but him for something that worked out.

I think most gave him plenty of credit for moves this summer, people were thrilled with DeBrincat, Giroux and dumping Murray.

There's a spectrum of good to bad when it comes to moves and picks, I think you need to view any move through the lens of what should be rationally expected.

If he picked first OA in 2015, do you give him credit for picking McDavid over Eichel? Of course not. Picking Tkachuk over a similarly ranked Zadina is more grey, but Tkachuk was still the higher ranked guy. Had we picked Stü first OA, that would be a gutsy pick, and warrant praise, but at 3rd OA does it really deserve credit?

Sanderson on the other hand was, imo, a gutsy pick that paid off, he could have gotten some other good players had he played it safe but instead went for a guy he thought was better despite not even being the highest ranked D little lone consensus BPA.

Tbh, I think people are often overly critical of the bad moves and other people overly praise some of the good ones. Most moves are just moves that either pan out or don't, not a lot are super savvy deserving of praise or super terrible horrible deserving of scorn.

 

[OgieO]

I think the first two posts kinda sum it up well -> DJ vs lack of RD to slide in to top 4

I look at so many other rosters of top teams and virtually all of them have a hole or two. We've had a few key missing pieces (Norris and Formenton) but I tend to think a coach with a good system could have gotten quite a bit more from this group. Kudos to how well the staff have done with special teams, but 5v5 has been a disaster.

Marino might have insulated DJ and made his job basically foolproof, but I think the biggest mistake was rolling with DJ. That's with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Micklebot]

Definitely not. Ty Smith had significantly more value than any of those pieces. They wanted a cost controlled asset that has proven he could play in the league to replace Marino.

I think the lore about what Hextall wanted has gotten a bit twisted to fit the narrative.

Before the trade, Hextall said they had too many Dmen, and if they could trade one for a forward or for futures, that would be ideal, that's a fair cry from what your saying.

So, Brannstrom doesn't work, that much is true, since he'd need waivers and they were trying to shed a D, but JBD, Thomson, picks, a forward like Joseph, (Formenton probably doesn't work because of the scandal), Ostapchuk, Boucher, ect or a combination of those could all have worked. Could we make a package that beats Smyth while satisfying what Hextall actually said? Perhaps.

Maybe we made a pitch, but rumours at the time were we got scared off by his term though, not the asking price.

In the end, i don't think we can be too critical of moves that weren't made since we don't know what the pens would have accepted, but at the same time, I do think it's misleading to say we know Smyth was more valuable to them then anything we could offer.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don’t understand why some people are allergic to giving him credit for some of the good moves that he made.

So what?

If his bad moves outnumber or outweigh this good moves, he’s still a bad GM.

It doesn’t mean you have to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to give credit to everyone but him for something that worked out.

Better Days ahead. At least one good day right?

 

[aragorn]

But what better way is there to predict future job performance than to analyze their past? Their assessment of what he can do going forward would only be able to be drawn from what he has done already.

Well when anaylsing the present team that he built they have plenty of very good young players who are improving each yr & by all acounts will be a very good team in future. Has he done enough? For some he has, for others he has not, but I think most agree this is a good entertaining team to watch with so much untapped potential. I'm not trying to defend PD, but the summer of Pierre he was getting a lot of praise for the moves he made. How far they go back with this is another story, my guess is not as far as some posters. Time will tell.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Well when anaylsing the present team that he built they have plenty of very good young players who are improving each yr & by all acounts will be a very good team in future. Has he done enough? For some he has, for others he has not, but I think most agree this is a good entertaining team to watch with so much untapped potential. I'm not trying to defend PD, but the summer of Pierre he was getting a lot of praise for the moves he made. How far they go back with this is another story, my guess is not as far as some posters. Time will tell.

That's fair, I was just pointing out the hole in the logic more than the points about Dorion's resume themselves. The way you worded it just caught me and i thought how else would you assess someone's potential future performance without looking at their past. Seems like the only other option would be relying 100% on a "gut" feeling.

 

[swiftwin]

I find it hard to criticize gms for trades they didn't make. We don't have enough info about these things to say a trade could have been made one way or the other.

Agreed. It's about as ridiculous as criticizing a GM for not drafting some late round gem that turned into an all-star. We don't know the circumstances that prevented us from making such a trade.

 

[swiftwin]

I can't help it if your contrarian streak makes you blind to the fact that Tkachuk was clearly BPA, that 99% of GMs would have picked him and we were incredibly lucky that that 1% of idiot was working in MTL at the time.

The best assets we have, Dorion had very little to do with. He did get a good return for Karlsson but he has also made a ton of awful trades so it all washes out.

Dorion is a bad GM. His track record is established.

Everything good Dorion did was luck, and everything bad he did was because he's an idiot?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It hurts your credibility to say it's all been bad for Dorion, just like saying the opposite would and pretending like things are rosey atm.

It's the sum of it all that you're judging, not pretending like the guy has never done a good thing in his tenure. That's foolish. His contracts for the core are at the top of my list for his best work and think he deserves a lot of credit for those even if we don't want him making decisions going forward. His biggest flaw imo is filling in around them effectively and our prospect capital outside of the big guns at this stage is disappointing.

 

[Boud]

Injuries have played a major part on how this year has played out. Missing Norris for the year is something we just couldn't handle as a forward group. Losing Zub on an already thin defense was going to create major issues for this team. Then losing other pieces like Joseph, Motte, Chabot, Talbot for some time didn't help. Losing Formenton for the year on top of it was a tough blow. A lot of things went wrong this year with the roster in place. Batherson and Chabot had horrible stretches of hockey as well.

The team had very similar issues last season. A ton of injuries to key players on a roster with no depth. I had a hard time blaming things on DJ for the last few years. The roster wasn't there and the injuries created an impossible hill to climb for any coach. Giving DJ a chance to start the season was something I was completely fine with. Looking back I hope he was fired earlier in the season but the issue remains a depth problem paired with injuries.


Not grabbing a Dman has to be the biggest thing here. This is not only a recent problem though, it's been an issue with Dorion for a very long time and it will always be an issue. He can't acquire good Dman via trade and we need one badly.

After that the biggest thing for me based on the moves that were made is letting go of C.Brown for a pick knowing Formenton might not come back. There was no need for urgency on that trade.

The Talbot trade I understood. Gus had a bad year last season when hope was that he would grab a spot and Forsberg did much better. With the moves that were made they didn't want to have a sub .900 backup for Forsberg who had his question marks himself. Nothing wrong with that move. Looking at it with hindsight now doesn't change the reality before the season started.

The Paul deal was last season but again if their plan was to grab a winger in the offseason (Debrincat) then the forecasted roster included Tkachuk, Debrincat (or other), and then Formenton who was due for a deal. Paul would've been on the 4rth line so having Joseph who can play RW instead made sense based on that. Paul is playing much better in Tampa than he ever did here so people are obviously up in arms.

A lot of comments about Paul and Gus are just hindsight and not necessarily realistic if you go back and assess the decisions at the time that they were made. C.Brown trade too soon and not getting a Dman though were both big errors back then and now.

 

[aragorn]

Injuries have played a major part on how this year has played out. Missing Norris for the year is something we just couldn't handle as a forward group. Losing Zub on an already thin defense was going to create major issues for this team. Then losing other pieces like Joseph, Motte, Chabot, Talbot for some time didn't help. Losing Formenton for the year on top of it was a tough blow. A lot of things went wrong this year with the roster in place. Batherson and Chabot had horrible stretches of hockey as well.

The team had very similar issues last season. A ton of injuries to key players on a roster with no depth. I had a hard time blaming things on DJ for the last few years. The roster wasn't there and the injuries created an impossible hill to climb for any coach. Giving DJ a chance to start the season was something I was completely fine with. Looking back I hope he was fired earlier in the season but the issue remains a depth problem paired with injuries.


Not grabbing a Dman has to be the biggest thing here. This is not only a recent problem though, it's been an issue with Dorion for a very long time and it will always be an issue. He can't acquire good Dman via trade and we need one badly.

After that the biggest thing for me based on the moves that were made is letting go of C.Brown for a pick knowing Formenton might not come back. There was no need for urgency on that trade.

The Talbot trade I understood. Gus had a bad year last season when hope was that he would grab a spot and Forsberg did much better. With the moves that were made they didn't want to have a sub .900 backup for Forsberg who had his question marks himself. Nothing wrong with that move. Looking at it with hindsight now doesn't change the reality before the season started.

The Paul deal was last season but again if their plan was to grab a winger in the offseason (Debrincat) then the forecasted roster included Tkachuk, Debrincat (or other), and then Formenton who was due for a deal. Paul would've been on the 4rth line so having Joseph who can play RW instead made sense based on that.

A lot of comments about Paul and Gus are just hindsight and not necessarily realistic if you go back and assess the decisions at the time that they were made. C.Brown trade too soon and not getting a Dman though were both big errors back then and now.

Very fair assessment, just one comment & that was that C. Brown was going to go to free agency because he thought he would get more there. Ottawa had their top 6 filled out & C. Brown would have been on the 3rd line here & the thought was that Joseph was ready to break out & replace his pts which never materialized. The other point is that every team is looking for defencemen & given Ottawa was not forecasted to make the playoffs the guys that are usually available are guys who want to play in the playoffs.

That cuts down the list of D that would come here, Chychrun IMO was the one they really wanted given his Ott connections but he was quite expensive & still is & he is a left shot & they need a right shot. The other RD they are looking at all have holes of one kind or another, it's not going to be easy to find the right guy for this situation.

 

[swiftwin]

Very fair assessment, just one comment & that was that C. Brown was going to go to free agency because he thought he would get more there. Ottawa had their top 6 filled out & C. Brown would have been on the 3rd line here & the thought was that Joseph was ready to break out & replace his pts which never materialized. The other point is that every team is looking for defencemen & given Ottawa was not forecasted to make the playoffs the guys that are usually available are guys who want to play in the playoffs.

That cuts down the list of D that would come here, Chychrun IMO was the one they really wanted given his Ott connections but he was quite expensive & still is & he is a left shot & they need a right shot. The other RD they are looking at all have holes of one kind or another, it's not going to be easy to find the right guy for this situation.

Agree 100%. It's a fair assessment except for the Brown bit. Joseph is a 3rd liner. There simply wasn't any room for Brown with Batherson, Giroux and Joseph on RW.

My biggest criticism of Dorion has always been the DeMelo trade. We definitely could use him right now.

 

[Ouroboros]

Agree 100%. It's a fair assessment except for the Brown bit. Joseph is a 3rd liner. There simply wasn't any room for Brown with Batherson, Giroux and Joseph on RW.

My biggest criticism of Dorion has always been the DeMelo trade. We definitely could use him right now.

DeMelo booked his ticket out of town when the Uber video leaked. The last thing the Senators wanted at that time was even more bad press, especially from depth players. Aside from Chabot, every player that appeared in that video is now gone.

Maybe that's unfair, but I'm pretty sure it's why they didn't even bother to negotiate with him.

 

[Beech]

I can't help it if your contrarian streak makes you blind to the fact that Tkachuk was clearly BPA, that 99% of GMs would have picked him and we were incredibly lucky that that 1% of idiot was working in MTL at the time.

The best assets we have, Dorion had very little to do with. He did get a good return for Karlsson but he has also made a ton of awful trades so it all washes out.

Dorion is a bad GM. His track record is established.

Dorion hater here. But.
1) The Tkachuk pick was really off the back of having to make a decision on picking that year or deferring.
2) They must be given full credit for identifying Brady.... I will assume, that they knew 1, 2 and 3 would unfold as they did. Thus they were somewhat sure that Brady was going to be available!

So on that one, as much as it hurts, we do have to give Dorion Credit.

The citizen did a similar thing 12 years ago for Brian Murray. I always though what a brilliant way to track a GM. Take every move and give him, a +1, 0 or -1.

2016.. a strike out. He f'd up big time ( so a -1)
2017..a double and a home run (FORMENTON AND BATHERSON) ( +1, +1)
2018.. a double and a strike out (brady AND JBD) (+1, -1)
2019...a strike out and a single (Thompson and Pinto) (-1, +1)
2020..a hit by pitch and a home run (Timmy and Sanderson) (0, +1)

Karlsson netted Norris. should have done better (-1)
Stone netted...well nothing (-1)
JGP...netted R. Greig... a minor positive (+1)
Zeb. netted nothing (-1)

Hire Boucher (0)
Hire DJ (0)

free agent signings (-1 on about 6 occasions)
Zub (+1)
Giroux (0)
The Cat for a #7 (-1)
Duchene (-1)
Hoffman (-1)

Total ~ -7

Not good.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

DeMelo booked his ticket out of town when the Uber video leaked. The last thing the Senators wanted at that time was even more bad press, especially from depth players. Aside from Chabot, every player that appeared in that video is now gone.

Maybe that's unfair, but I'm pretty sure it's why they didn't even bother to negotiate with him.

Am I the only one that thought that was a complete non story!?!?

I never understood the uproar. The ONLY difference is that it was on camera, otherwise those conversations would surely be had very regularly. Like c'mon, we've all been there 100's of times in our lives with bosses, teachers, coaches, etc. Total nothing burger other than that damn camera. The whole angle should have only ever been about how wrong the Uber driver was to do that to them.

 

[bert]

Well when anaylsing the present team that he built they have plenty of very good young players who are improving each yr & by all acounts will be a very good team in future. Has he done enough? For some he has, for others he has not, but I think most agree this is a good entertaining team to watch with so much untapped potential. I'm not trying to defend PD, but the summer of Pierre he was getting a lot of praise for the moves he made. How far they go back with this is another story, my guess is not as far as some posters. Time will tell.

His entire body of work will be judged. The fact that teams like Buffalo, L.A and NJ have way better prospect pools and are better teams right now is daming proof he has done a piss poor job. Especially starting with the assets he did.

Agree 100%. It's a fair assessment except for the Brown bit. Joseph is a 3rd liner. There simply wasn't any room for Brown with Batherson, Giroux and Joseph on RW.

My biggest criticism of Dorion has always been the DeMelo trade. We definitely could use him right now.

B.S Joseph plays both wings. This teams terrible depth, lack of speed up front are some of the reasons they're a lottery team again. Brown was the worst move knowing they won't have Formenton.

 

[Ouroboros]

Am I the only one that thought that was a complete non story!?!?

I never understood the uproar. The ONLY difference is that it was on camera, otherwise those conversations would surely be had very regularly. Like c'mon, we've all been there 100's of times in our lives with bosses, teachers, coaches, etc. Total nothing burger other than that damn camera. The whole angle should have only ever been about how wrong the Uber driver was to do that to them.

In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal, but it was another public embarrassment at a time when it just wasn't needed. You can say some shit about your boss at the bar, but if you go home and send the same stuff in a work e-mail you're probably getting fired. How many dipshits have been fired for posting something about their boss or employer on social media?

They had to do something, and it was the depth guys who were gonna eat it. The weight was never going to fall on young guys like Chabot, White an Formenton. Chris Wideman was traded within 2 weeks of the video leaking. DeMelo was out the door shortly after without even an attempt at a negotiation. Duchene was gone as well, but he wasn't extending here anyway.

He wasn't replaced adequately though, that's for sure. Chabot has pretty much stunk without him.

 

[Beech]

His entire body of work will be judged. The fact that teams like Buffalo, L.A and NJ have way better prospect pools and are better teams right now is daming proof he has done a piss poor job. Especially starting with the assets he did.


B.S Joseph plays both wings. This teams terrible depth, lack of speed up front are some of the reasons they're a lottery team again. Brown was the worst move knowing they won't have Formenton.

In 2011 or 2012 the Citizen worte a fantastic piece on B Murray. It documented his roughly 50 moves and gave him a +1, 0 or -1.

They were generous and ended up at a net plus number. When I redid it, I ended up at minus number.

It would be fantastic to track Dorion's roughly 100 moves and grade them that way and see.

I did a small amount and ended up around -7. Then I remembered another 1/2 dozen moves...

Dorion's score may be closer to -10 or so. Maybe worse.