Does Marner get Boo’d?

[Craig Button]

It is irrelevant. You made a blanket statement that a player was an idiot to agree to a sign and trade. I want to know why you think that is generally true, not why you don't like a particular one.

Your previous post didn't say why you think a sign and trade is bad, just why you don't like that particular one.

Pick any team you like, and say they want to trade for Marner if Toronto signs him for $13Mx8. How about Colorado? Or Florida? Or Boston?

Read my previous post as to why I think it’s dumb.

It’s stated there.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Read my previous post as to why I think it’s dumb.

It’s stated there.

You said "Anyone who does a sign and trade either has an IQ less than 70 or has an agent with an IQ less than 70."

You have not offered any explanation for that comment.

 

[Bust]

I’ve been absent from this discussion for a few days. One thing I’d like to address:

“Marner doesn’t owe the leafs or fans anything” - I heavily disagree. He was given a UFA contact as an RFA. His previous GM gave him the keys as I’m sure Marner asked for (large contact, leadership position, player friendly coach) and proceeded to not be a key player in big moments. I believe he needs to own that, and he absolutely owes this fanbase at least 1 playoff run where he puts the team before himself. You can’t be the same player you were in junior, you just can’t. You need to get uncomfortable to win and Marner has never done that.

“Blame the GM who game him the contract” - ok, ya sure. I can agree with that. But that does not absolve Marner from not growing as a player and leader. He is the same guy he’s always been, unfortunately now that he’s older, it’s not cute to watch him get manhandled and duck hits. Not at 11mil. & I still don’t see how he deserves a raise.

Something I don’t understand: reading a few pages back about McKinnon contract, why does Marner “deserve” 12.5m? Why is it that other players negotiate contacts based on where the cap is at currently, but we need to bend to accommodate what the cap will be in year 4,5,6,7,8 of the contract? It’s greedy and he doesn’t deserve that kind of accommodating.

Few players deserve a blank cheque (we’ve got 1 of them!), Marner is not that guy. We have to stop catering to him if the team is serious about results.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Lol get ready to boo him next season then

Mitch owes it to himself to do what’s best for him.

Anyone who does a sign and trade either has an IQ less than 70 or has an agent with an IQ less than 70.

Mitch will either get traded at the deadline for a 1st or he will finish this season as a Leaf.

The sign and trade won’t happen.

In this unique case, you got this completely backwards. Marner would be wise to sign a deal now. He will get less on the ufa market. Pretty delusional to think teams will be lining up to give him more than he’s currently making lol. If Marner thinks otherwise his iq is definitely below 70 then.

 

[ACC1224]

In this unique case, you got this completely backwards. Marner would be wise to sign a deal now. He will get less on the ufa market. Pretty delusional to think teams will be lining up to give him more than he’s currently making lol. If Marner thinks otherwise his iq is definitely below 70 then.

If he has his typical season he'll get some sort of raise.

 

[mikeyz]

I think that’s the tops that he is worth but I’m not sure if he is worth keeping at that.
His, it’s never my fault petulant attitude is not a winning attitude

Yeah even 9 million I wouldn’t bring him back.

If he has his typical season he'll get some sort of raise.

Not necessarily. It all depends what he does in the playoffs.

 

[Sypher04]

Why is it that other players negotiate contacts based on where the cap is at currently, but we need to bend to accommodate what the cap will be in year 4,5,6,7,8 of the contract?

They don’t unless they are signing a 1 year deal.
All player agents negotiate within the understanding of cap projections when dealing with term deals.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Its surprising how very little interest there is in Marner on the trade market, with very little chatter even just rumours of teams looking to acquire his service that would give GM BT even a reason to approach Marner on issue.

It appears what might be the asking price in trade or the future Marner contract, combined with his continued poor playoff performance has drawn very little interest around the NHL World.

Perhaps teams are willing to wait until he hits the free agent market next summer before considering him for their teams.

Mitchy and his entourage are about to learn a big lesson on what the term "market value" means.

Unless MSLE wimps out, of course.

 

[HolyCrap]

Are you talking to yourself?

This is your 2nd post where you @ one of my posts talking about a sign and trade.

Please show me any post where I say anything remotely close to a sign and trade.

A gentle reminder that Drano is not meant for drinking……

Weird, but whatever.

But Drano tastes so damn good. Burns coming out though.

 

[rumman]

Marner is a good player but he is not a 12 million a year player. He’ll get 11

Your seriously underestimating the stupidity of MLSE imo……..

 

[Sundinisagod]

If he has his typical season he'll get some sort of raise.

90 something points and another playoff no show, that’s not even worth 10m.

 

[notbias]

Its surprising how very little interest there is in Marner on the trade market, with very little chatter even just rumours of teams looking to acquire his service that would give GM BT even a reason to approach Marner on issue.

It appears what might be the asking price in trade or the future Marner contract, combined with his continued poor playoff performance has drawn very little interest around the NHL World.

Perhaps teams are willing to wait until he hits the free agent market next summer before considering him for their teams.

"I'm surprised there are no rumours about any trades for the guy who is not being offered in trades"

 

[Bust]

They don’t unless they are signing a 1 year deal.
All player agents negotiate within the understanding of cap projections when dealing with term deals.

Yes they do. All the time actually.

Look at Rantanen in COL who signed after Marner. Marner needed to be at 10.9 based on cap projections.

Never hear about projected cap when guys like Kucherov or other comparable stars sign. Only in Toronto.

 

[ToneDog]

90 something points and another playoff no show, that’s not even worth 10m.

That's worth a ticket out of town.

 

[notbias]

Yes they do. All the time actually.

Look at Rantanen in COL who signed after Marner. Marner needed to be at 10.9 based on cap projections.

Never hear about projected cap when guys like Kucherov or other comparable stars sign. Only in Toronto.

Have you heard about taxes for someone like Kucherov?

Agents have confirmed this is a factor when signing contracts.

Kucherov's contract in Toronto or New York likely looks different than his Florida contract.

Pretty sure Marner's take-home is $1 million less than Kucherov's.

I'm sure there are ways to negate some of this, but I think Kucherov comes out ahead still.

 

[ToneDog]

Your seriously underestimating the stupidity of MLSE imo……..

Ferris is no fool. He can argue Marner greater than Nylander and Leafs will eventually fold because they are afraid to let him walk for nothing. And we will continue to tee off and hit the cottage in early May.

 

[Bust]

Have you heard about taxes for someone like Kucherov?

Agents have confirmed this is a factor when signing contracts.

Kucherov's contract in Toronto or New York likely looks different than his Florida contract.

There’s actually a number of reports that refute the “tax” disparity. Qualified tax professionals all basically state that things shake out pretty equally when all is said and done.

COL has state tax. Why did Rantanen not take every penny possible? Perhaps he was not offered 10.9 as he’s not worth it? And he’s better than our boy Marner.

 

[notbias]

There’s actually a number of reports that refute the “tax” disparity. Qualified tax professionals all basically state that things shake out pretty equally when all is said and done.

COL has state tax. Why did Rantanen not take every penny possible? Perhaps he was not offered 10.9 as he’s not worth it? And he’s better than our boy Marner.

Firstly, for Rantanen, Marner had a better resume when signing, it's pretty simple.

Regardless, Marner is still overpaid, but we are discussing someone like Kucherov who is underpaid and the taxes are likely the reason.

Tax Calculator - Cardinal Point

Athlete Advisors

cardinalpointathleteadvisors.com

“That’s part of the reality,” San Jose Sharks general manager Mike Grier said. “I think it is an advantage for those teams: They can obviously pay guys a little bit less, and guys are happy to go there. So not to their fault or anything, those teams take advantage of the situation as they should.”

Pogroszewski, the founder, president and CEO of AFP Consulting LLC, which specializes in the tax preparation and consulting for pro athletes, said he and his colleagues have debated for years how much of a factor financial matters such as these should play in free agent decisions.

Pogroszewski said the New York Rangers or Islanders would need to offer a contract exceeding $88 million to net the same amount as Reinhart’s $69 million contract with the Panthers.

He points out there are things players can do to even the playing field — retirement compensation arrangements in Canada being one of them and establishing residency in a no- or low-tax state is another.

Veteran defenseman Chris Tanev's situation featured a different variable. After finishing last season with the Dallas Stars, moving there and becoming a U.S. resident would have triggered Canada's departure tax on capital gains, while remaining a resident of Ontario would have mitigated the tax advantage of working in Texas.

"That plays a role into it," said Tanev...

"If you can get New York state to go tax-free, I’m in," Buffalo's Kevyn Adams joked, before explaining his philosophy. “You try to focus your attention on building an organization the right way, where people recognize that and say, ‘That’s the culture, that’s the place that I want to play.’ ... If there’s players that flat out just don’t want to be in cold weather or don’t want to be in a state that has higher taxes, then they are probably not for us anyway.”

So multiple GMs, someone who specializes in taxes for players, and a player all agree that taxes play a part in deciding where to play.

The specialist as well as both GMs here say that playing in a state without an income tax is an advantage.

For someone like Matthews where he can give up tax residency and claim Arizona as his home, he is likely off the hook, but I doubt someone like Marner can buy a house in Florida and do that, not sure the CRA would allow it.

 

[Bust]

That's worth a ticket out of town.

This needs to be true. Or fans will stop tuning in IMO.

Pretty sad when fans have higher standards than management.

 

[Bust]

Firstly, for Rantanen, Marner had a better resume when signing, it's pretty simple.

Tax Calculator - Cardinal Point

Athlete Advisors

cardinalpointathleteadvisors.com

So multiple GMs, someone who specializes in taxes for players, and a player all agree that taxes play a part in deciding where to play.

The specialist as well as both GMs here say that playing in a state without an income tax is an advantage.

For someone like Matthews where he can give up tax residency and claim Arizona as his home, he is likely off the hook, but I doubt someone like Marner can buy a house in Florida and do that, not sure the CRA would allow it.

I’m not getting into tax with you man. I don’t really care. I’m sure Kucherov and the boys down in FLA have some loopholes to net more income - good for them. But the same can be said for Marner. Tax discrepancies exist for sure - no argument there. But I think they may be somewhat overstated. The cap is an issue IMO, and I think that’s where the issues lie.

Regardless of tax - this idea that we need to forcast cap numbers, years out, in case our special little guys might not be raking in every penny possible is gross. These are not cup winners, these are not generational players (in marners case) - Marner has not done anything to separate himself from the pack and should not be treated as such.

 

[notbias]

I’m not getting into tax with you man.

one post before...

There’s actually a number of reports that refute the “tax” disparity. Qualified tax professionals all basically state that things shake out pretty equally when all is said and done.

COL has state tax. Why did Rantanen not take every penny possible? Perhaps he was not offered 10.9 as he’s not worth it? And he’s better than our boy Marner.

Anyway, you were wrong on taxes mattering, it's fine, not a big deal.

I don’t really care. I’m sure Kucherov and the boys down in FLA have some loopholes to net more income - good for them. But the same can be said for Marner. Tax discrepancies exist for sure - no argument there. But I think they may be somewhat overstated. The cap is an issue IMO, and I think that’s where the issues lie.

Regardless of tax - this idea that we need to forcast cap numbers, years out, in case our special little guys might not be raking in every penny possible is gross. These are not cup winners, these are not generational players (in marners case) - Marner has not done anything to separate himself from the pack and should not be treated as such.

Forecasting the cap is done by every single team... it is not unique to Toronto.

Can you point out players who have taken discounts? Not players who took what they were owed and then became stars after? (Marchand, Pastrnak, MacKinnon, etc)

I believe there are three people I know of, McDavid (not 100% sure on this, but I believe he took less than he could have), Gio, and Tavares.

 

[Bust]

one post before...



Anyway, you were wrong on taxes mattering, it's fine, not a big deal.



Forecasting the cap is done by every single team... it is not unique to Toronto.

Can you point out players who have taken discounts? Not players who took what they were owed and then became stars after? (Marchand, Pastrnak, MacKinnon, etc)

I believe there are three people I know of, McDavid (not 100% sure on this, but I believe he took less than he could have), Gio, and Tavares.

I don’t want to talk taxes with you as both you and I have really no real understanding of tax differences from country to country.

No need to be smug - I would rather not Have a convo with someone who has a very limited knowledge on the subject they feel they are an authority on. You have no clue what you’re talking about regarding tax on pro athletes.

Very easy to prove you wrong I would just rather not read into taxes, I do enough of my own.

Rantanen had a better playoff resume when he signed that contract than Marner ever has. He’s always been better than Marner - some of us watch more teams than the leafs.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Have you heard about taxes for someone like Kucherov?

Agents have confirmed this is a factor when signing contracts.

Kucherov's contract in Toronto or New York likely looks different than his Florida contract.

Pretty sure Marner's take-home is $1 million less than Kucherov's.

I'm sure there are ways to negate some of this, but I think Kucherov comes out ahead still.

Are we comparing Marner’s rfa deal to Kuch’s ufa contract? In that case i would expect Kucherov to be taking home a lot more than a mil more than Marner.

 

[robertmac43]

Its surprising how very little interest there is in Marner on the trade market, with very little chatter even just rumours of teams looking to acquire his service that would give GM BT even a reason to approach Marner on issue.

It appears what might be the asking price in trade or the future Marner contract, combined with his continued poor playoff performance has drawn very little interest around the NHL World.

Perhaps teams are willing to wait until he hits the free agent market next summer before considering him for their teams.

Also an element of no one in the hockey media world working right now. Hard to get the rumour mill going with all the insiders on cottage docks.

 

[francis246]

Its surprising how very little interest there is in Marner on the trade market, with very little chatter even just rumours of teams looking to acquire his service that would give GM BT even a reason to approach Marner on issue.

It appears what might be the asking price in trade or the future Marner contract, combined with his continued poor playoff performance has drawn very little interest around the NHL World.

Perhaps teams are willing to wait until he hits the free agent market next summer before considering him for their teams.

It’s August, Marner has expressed his desire to remain leaf and he has a not trade clause. What do you expect?