Speculation: Do You Want Gerard Gallant Fired?

[McRanger92]

How much longer do we need to wait? Sather has been with the organization in some capacity or another since 2000. It is now 2023. That's almost 23 full years of poor development of offensive forwards.

How much longer do we need go wait before it becomes even more painfully obvious that this organization has an offensive prospect development problem? Another 23 years? Do we need to let it go a full 50?

Personally I'd wait until the Kids can legally rent a car but that's just me. Chytil is scoring at a 50 point pace this year with no PP time if that helps.

We've also developed plenty of offensive forwards, they just arent here anymore because we went through a rebuild in the middle of what would've been the prime of their careers. Go back through the last 23 years and tell me what cant miss forward prospects we failed to develop?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Personally I'd wait until the Kids can legally rent a car but that's just me. Chytil is scoring at a 50 point pace this year with no PP time if that helps.

We've also developed plenty of offensive forwards, they just arent here anymore because we went through a rebuild in the middle of what would've been the prime of their careers. Go back through the last 23 years and tell me what cant miss forward prospects we failed to develop?

It used to be “they can’t even legally buy a drink yet!” Lmao.

Soon it will be “these kids can’t even collect social security yet I can’t believe how impatient Rangers fans are smh”

 

[chosen]

Actually, near career years should be what's expected of players who could still be reasonably expected to be in their prime and have had no significant injuries.

Panarin's career year was 19-20. He was on pace for 115 points, which would have been a career year by 20. Mika probably seriously challenges 50 if they play the rest of the season, and would have threatened 100 points had they played 82 and he not missed a dozen games with injury. Kreider's careeer year was last year.

Expecting Lafreniere and Kakko to make strides is not a career year, but the rational progression of young players who should be demonstrably getting beter every year. Same goes for expecting Kravtsov to produce around .5 PPG, or Trocheck's assist totals to be higher playing with much more skilled forwards here.

Expecting these guys as a collection of very talented players to produce close to their better seasons while still in their athletic prime is not unreasonable, it's what winning teams routinely do. Pretty sure expecting Stamkos to go 40-50-90 is not "unreasonable" but expected...and that's a guy who only has 1 100 point season under his belt. Panarin's flirted with 100 points a ton, and expecting him to do so again is somehow too high of an expectation? Zibanejad had a garbage start to last season and still finished with 81 points, and expecting 90 is somehow too high?

Raise your expectations. That's what a serious Cup contender would look like at this point in the season.

The fact they're not looking like that is how far off they are. They're not winning anything this year if this is how they play the rest of the season. I'll be thrilled if they turn on the afterburners and prove me wrong, but I highly doubt it. Fact is, they were playing better at the start of the season. They were moving the puck, they were creating chances in scoring areas, and they were scoring goals. The defense was terrible, but KAM was not playing a fraction as well as he is now, Trouba was full pylon out there (at least now he's back to half pylon), Schneider looked like a rookie, and Zac Jones and Libor Hajek with him ensured one third of our D pairs spent their shifts pinned in their own end. Now Schneider has been low key very good, and KAM is looking like a stud, but the forward group is back to circling the offensive zone while doing nothing of substance, and the coach thinks putting Goodrow and Vesey on the 2nd line will fix it.

You can say it's all reasonable, but I doubt it's ever happened that 7 forwards register their best point totals in the same season.

I don't know if you've posted negative stuff about Laf this season, like he's a bust, like a lot of folks here have, but if you have, it wouldn't make much sense to then say he should get 50 points.

You and I can be disappointed that Laf won't get 50, but that doesn't mean he should.

Before the season, did you think they would be in a much higher position in the standings? They're about where I thought they'd be.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

How much longer do we need to wait? Sather has been with the organization in some capacity or another since 2000. It is now 2023. That's almost 23 full years of poor development of offensive forwards.

How much longer do we need go wait before it becomes even more painfully obvious that this organization has an offensive prospect development problem? Another 23 years? Do we need to let it go a full 50?

At this point we’ll just have to wait until Sather buys the farm to have any hope of change

 

[McRanger92]

It used to be “they can’t even legally buy a drink yet!” Lmao.

Soon it will be “these kids can’t even collect social security yet I can’t believe how impatient Rangers fans are smh”

It benefits the Rangers to have patience with these guys. If in a couple years they are still showing nothing, we'll be f***ed and everyone can do their victory lap then.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Personally I'd wait until the Kids can legally rent a car but that's just me. Chytil is scoring at a 50 point pace this year with no PP time if that helps.

We've also developed plenty of offensive forwards, they just arent here anymore because we went through a rebuild in the middle of what would've been the prime of their careers. Go back through the last 23 years and tell me what cant miss forward prospects we failed to develop?

What offensive forwards did we develop other than Kreider and Stepan? Dubinsky and Callahan were both two-way guys. We've basically shoehorned every single forward into a two-way role. Anisimov was also shoehorned into a two-way role as well, which I always bristled at.

Give me a list of the offensive forwards we've developed since 2000. You can slot in Miller and Buch, but I'd argue that Miller's career was essentially saved by moving away from here. His game completely opened up when he wasn't asked to be what the Rangers asked him to be.

We don't need to discuss "can't miss" forward prospects since that's not actually the discussion.

This is simply pathetic prospect development in over 20 f***ing years.

It benefits the Rangers to have patience with these guys. If in a couple years they are still showing nothing, we'll be f***ed and everyone can do their victory lap then.

So you're just ignoring the 17 years before 2017 (when Chytil was taken)?

 

[effen]

Development isn't instantaneous

Zibenajad apparently got miracled into a 1C via divine intervention as opposed to coming here as a tools but no toolbox guy who couldn't receive passes.

 

[McRanger92]

What offensive forwards did we develop other than Kreider and Stepan? Dubinsky and Callahan were both two-way guys. We've basically shoehorned every single forward into a two-way role. Anisimov was also shoehorned into a two-way role as well, which I always bristled at.

Give me a list of the offensive forwards we've developed since 2000. You can slot in Miller and Buch, but I'd argue that Miller's career was essentially saved by moving away from here. His game completely opened up when he wasn't asked to be what the Rangers asked him to be.

We don't need to discuss "can't miss" forward prospects since that's not actually the discussion.

This is simply pathetic prospect development in over 20 f***ing years.



So you're just ignoring the 17 years before 2017 (when Chytil was taken)?

Zuccarello, Zibanejad, Chytil looks on his way. For a team that drafted 2 first round forwards from 09-16, who both became top line players btw, Id say the hit rate is not to shabby and definitely not the worst in the league. The Rebuild Letter everyone harps on preached patience, so they best time to be impatient clearly is when our lottery picks are under 23 years old.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Zuccarello, Zibanejad, Chytil looks on his way. For a team that drafted 2 first round forwards from 09-16, who both became top line players btw, Id say the hit rate is not to shabby and definitely not the worst in the league. The Rebuild Letter everyone harps on preached patience, so they best time to be impatient clearly is when our lottery picks are under 23 years old.

Zucc was pretty much a finished product when he came over. They also tried to send him down and banish him until he learned defense. When it became obvious that he was fine without it, they brought him back up. Zucc actually proves my point. He succeeded in spite of the Rangers' handling of him.

I am not really sure how to evaluate Zibanejad. I don't really see anything he does all that differently from 16/17 to now. The only thing I really see is his shot is more on target. He seems to be generating rebounds more and missing the net less. His face-off % has actually decreased since his first season, here. He's a hard guy to actually crack since he really reminds me of when he was drafted. Let's give him to you for the sake of it, though.

Defending the development of offensive forwards for the Rangers is the height of insanity to me. The idea that only developing two impact offensive forwards over 9 years being "not too shabby" blows my mind. Feels like accepting failure.

Further, f*** the stupid rebuild letter. My complaints go back years and years before that.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Zibenajad apparently got miracled into a 1C via divine intervention as opposed to coming here as a tools but no toolbox guy who couldn't receive passes.

He still can’t receive passes lmao. At least he’s good at other things

 

[LOFIN]

How about Bruce, if Drury ends up making a move during the off season?

 

[McRanger92]

How about Bruce, if Drury ends up making a move during the off season?

I'd prefer someone more hands on than Gallant, Boudreau is AV with a likeable personality.

 

[Ruggs225]

I like Bruce, but im not convinced he is the guy. I mean he didnt win in WSH with a stacked lineup. I would rather go younger or if we do go to a retread then just go in Trotz.

I all for Brunette if we can pry him from the Debbies. Young, coached very well in FLA, was an assistant under Q and now doing well as assistant in NJD under Ruff. Has experience bringing along younger guys and likes to have a fast pacedAggressive offense.

He has earned the opportunity. IMO he should be the primary target.

Also helps that his departure could hurt the debbies.

 

[CLW]

The Sather puppet master thing is so played out. He is 80 and when was the last time he was seen around the Rangers or spoke publicly about them? I guess if he was the one who put a gun to JD & Gorton's head to give 20 mil to Trouba & Panarin it would makes sense but something tells me that is unlikely

Sather descended from the heavens after the Wilson incident and said the Rangers need to get tougher, along with Dolan popping up and saying he expects the Rangers to go after tantalizing UFA when they become available. JD & Gorton were fired and the next thing was Nemeth, Reaves, Tinordi, Blais for Buch (lol), Goodrow on a fat contract etc. That summer was a debacle and it is all on Drather, not Gorton or JD even if they too made mistakes signing fat UFA contracts.

Don't tell me they have no influence, Sather and Dolan make sure to keep the Rangers steady as she goes within their comfort zone (playoff revenue, which is why the whip was on Quinn) and Drury has his marching orders. This is simply an observable fact.

 

[TGWL]

I can wait until the end of the season.

 

[EdJovanovski]

It's time.

 

[redwhiteandblue]

Mess would be my first choice if they decide to grab GG a Cash Cab.

 

[OrwellianNightmare]

Prior to his hiring, someone alluded to Gallant's reputation as being a personality coach and not an X's and O's coach. Maybe Edge, but it hasn't ever been more apparent than now.

The guy is just not a smart coach.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

You can say it's all reasonable, but I doubt it's ever happened that 7 forwards register their best point totals in the same season.

I don't know if you've posted negative stuff about Laf this season, like he's a bust, like a lot of folks here have, but if you have, it wouldn't make much sense to then say he should get 50 points.

You and I can be disappointed that Laf won't get 50, but that doesn't mean he should.

Before the season, did you think they would be in a much higher position in the standings? They're about where I thought they'd be.

Yes, based on their talent, they should be a lot higher in the standings. Neck and neck or slightly ahead of Carolina basically, but not on Boston's heels.

5 teams scored 300 goals last season, and several more just missed. If this team was going to be a serious contender, it's not unreasonable to expect them to be near that pace, particularly this year when scoring is up.

And 7 forwards don't all have "career years" in the same seasons, but if the kids were progressing the way they should be, 50 points would be far from a career year. It'd be career years from 10 and 93, a very good year from 20, a very good year from 16, and totals from 13, 24, and 74 that are going to look mediocre in comparison to what they'd ideally be putting up in a couple years when they're ready to take the mantle from the vets, so not "career years" by any stretch.

By the standards of calling a career year "best to date," last year Colorado got a near career year from MacKinnon (with injury keeping totals down), career year from Rantanen, career year from Kadri, career year from Makar, from Burakovsky, from Nichushkin, Landeskog best point per game rate of career but injury, and a career year from Lehkonen (to that point).

If we want to be a Cup contender, these are the teams we need to start emulating and comparing ourselves to, not the rest of the mediocre to above average teams. Last year's team was middle of the pack in goal scoring, this year's team is towards the bottom of the middle third. Yet again we are relying on goaltending to remain competitive. However, we just don't have enough scoring.

 

[turcotte8]

It's time.

no, just no

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Prior to his hiring, someone alluded to Gallant's reputation as being a personality coach and not an X's and O's coach. Maybe Edge, but it hasn't ever been more apparent than now.

The guy is just not a smart coach.

That’s putting it politely

It's time.

Ideal interim coach.

 

[chosen]

Yes, based on their talent, they should be a lot higher in the standings. Neck and neck or slightly ahead of Carolina basically, but not on Boston's heels.

5 teams scored 300 goals last season, and several more just missed. If this team was going to be a serious contender, it's not unreasonable to expect them to be near that pace, particularly this year when scoring is up.

And 7 forwards don't all have "career years" in the same seasons, but if the kids were progressing the way they should be, 50 points would be far from a career year. It'd be career years from 10 and 93, a very good year from 20, a very good year from 16, and totals from 13, 24, and 74 that are going to look mediocre in comparison to what they'd ideally be putting up in a couple years when they're ready to take the mantle from the vets, so not "career years" by any stretch.

By the standards of calling a career year "best to date," last year Colorado got a near career year from MacKinnon (with injury keeping totals down), career year from Rantanen, career year from Kadri, career year from Makar, from Burakovsky, from Nichushkin, Landeskog best point per game rate of career but injury, and a career year from Lehkonen (to that point).

If we want to be a Cup contender, these are the teams we need to start emulating and comparing ourselves to, not the rest of the mediocre to above average teams. Last year's team was middle of the pack in goal scoring, this year's team is towards the bottom of the middle third. Yet again we are relying on goaltending to remain competitive. However, we just don't have enough scoring.

Where you keep losing me is with statements like we should emulate teams like Colorado. You can't emulate talent. It has to be present. No forwards on the Rangers come close to MacKinnon or Rantanen. That's just a fact.

On a side note that I suppose is irrelevant, about two years ago, I posted that I thought the Rangers should take a shot on Nichushkin because as a rookie he was called the next Malkin, but then went through major injuries. Those that responded to me said not only would he not help but that he is a total negative player that should get nowhere near the Rangers.

I wish he was a Ranger, now.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Where you keep losing me is with statements like we should emulate teams like Colorado. You can't emulate talent. It has to be present. No forwards on the Rangers come close to MacKinnon or Rantanen. That's just a fact.

On a side note that I suppose is irrelevant, about two years ago, I posted that I thought the Rangers should take a shot on Nichushkin because as a rookie he was called the next Malkin, but then went through major injuries. Those that responded to me said not only would he not help but that he is a total negative player that should get nowhere near the Rangers.

I wish he was a Ranger, now.

In 2019-20, Panarin was on pace for a 115 point season and Zibanejad was on a 100 point pace but had missed a dozen games with injury. Last year, Panarin just missed 100 points and Zibenajad overcame a bad start to finish at 81.

Their production is within striking distance of MacKinnon and Rantanen. Kreider can probably (almost) keep up with Landeskog over a full season.

I think we sell ourselves short when we look at what these players are capable of. These weren't "everything goes right" seasons I'm referring to above where the shooting percentages were unsustainable. These were legit dominant offensive seasons from players in their prime.

If one or two are off the pace, fine, not everybody's going to have a banner year. If there were injuries holding people back (especially the nagging kind, fine). But the entire team has been basically healthy (except for Kreider the last few games) and aside from Kreider the entire forward group is underachieving except for a few bottom 6 players and Chytil.

In business, if one person is falling behind, you PIP them. If the entire department is falling behind, you PIP their manager.

I find it hard to believe the entire forward group is underachieving as one, and the coaching staff has no culpability in that.

And what I mean by emulating Colorado is in player deployment. Again, to reiterate a post I made earlier in this thread, when Colorado is losing in the 2nd period, you don't see Bednar drop Rantanen to the third line to move Logan O'Connor up on MacKinnon's wing. Despite all their injuries this season, they're still 8th in powerplay goals and they have 2 forward groups that have been scoring.

The Rangers do things that the top teams don't do, and that improving teams don't do, then they don't play like a top team, and they don't improve. Now, how much is GG acting on his own is up for debate, but this team isn't going to win anything if they keep doing exactly what they've been doing for the last 20 years.

 

[bobbop]

Maybe.

Care to identify the problems with this roster that us non-professionals do not see or are aware of?

Several.

There is no real checking/matchup lIne. Your best defensive players are scattered on different lines. Use Mika to match up with a top center and it neutralizes his offense. The fourth line as itv3xists today is a yard sale.

There is less sandpaper than a year ago. it’s really noticeable when the Rangers are up against a heavy team like Dallas. It is an area that has to be addressed before the playoffs.

The Rangers defensive performance is still among the very best in the league but they aren’t built to simply shut other teams down. Not that I would want to see it but they don’t have the roster to run a trap.

Third, there is a definite need for more scoring. Panarin is a point per game right now vs. 1.33 in his first three years with the Rangers. Whether that a natural decline coming with age (31), a decline due to Trocheck (which I don’t buy) or something else, his lack of scoring is dragging down the offense. I am sure Gallant is trying different things to get him going
.
Last year Drury brought in three forwards at the deadline. I can easily see the same types of moves this year Perhaps with a different profile.

Gallant was a lot better coach last year after the reinforcements arrived.

 

[chosen]

In 2019-20, Panarin was on pace for a 115 point season and Zibanejad was on a 100 point pace but had missed a dozen games with injury. Last year, Panarin just missed 100 points and Zibenajad overcame a bad start to finish at 81.

Their production is within striking distance of MacKinnon and Rantanen. Kreider can probably (almost) keep up with Landeskog over a full season.

I think we sell ourselves short when we look at what these players are capable of. These weren't "everything goes right" seasons I'm referring to above where the shooting percentages were unsustainable. These were legit dominant offensive seasons from players in their prime.

If one or two are off the pace, fine, not everybody's going to have a banner year. If there were injuries holding people back (especially the nagging kind, fine). But the entire team has been basically healthy (except for Kreider the last few games) and aside from Kreider the entire forward group is underachieving except for a few bottom 6 players and Chytil.

In business, if one person is falling behind, you PIP them. If the entire department is falling behind, you PIP their manager.

I find it hard to believe the entire forward group is underachieving as one, and the coaching staff has no culpability in that.

And what I mean by emulating Colorado is in player deployment. Again, to reiterate a post I made earlier in this thread, when Colorado is losing in the 2nd period, you don't see Bednar drop Rantanen to the third line to move Logan O'Connor up on MacKinnon's wing. Despite all their injuries this season, they're still 8th in powerplay goals and they have 2 forward groups that have been scoring.

The Rangers do things that the top teams don't do, and that improving teams don't do, then they don't play like a top team, and they don't improve. Now, how much is GG acting on his own is up for debate, but this team isn't going to win anything if they keep doing exactly what they've been doing for the last 20 years.

You cherry pick a few stats of Colorado, yet the Rangers have more points than them. Sure, they're banged up, but they're also the reigning Cup champions, who were much the best last season.

So far, this season, besides Boston, which teams are decidedly better than the Rangers?

To me, none of the other teams are. They're all about the same, to me. The Rangers could beat or lose to any of them in a 7 game series.

Which of the coaches of the other teams in the NHL were more successful than Gallant last season? Only 2 teams went further, with one of them getting the Cup. The Rangers went further than 29 teams and results are the only thing that matters.