Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

[rumman]

It's a 2 way street? Matthews was asking well over what he signed yesterday. He was asking for over 14M on a 8 deal, probably closer to 13M on a 5-6 year deal. Does that make you feel better that he signed for 11.6M? Probably not because you probably don't care that most of the time, players sign market value contracts.

"No one is going to convince Nylander isn't overpaid" Well, okay then. I guess we're done. Imagine being this closed minded?

You have no concept of how cap percentages seem to work and just seem to want to solely blame Dubas for what you think are "overpaid" contracts and expect every player to take discounts and when they don't, you blame whoever you don't like to make yourself feel better.

paying 4 forward over 25% of your team's cap isn't a good idea.

Dumbas is playing Santa Claus, so ya it's on him.

Again, I don't begrudge a player taking what's offered as long as they realize it comes with expectations.

Why do I have to make myself feel better, I have nothing to do with what junior's doing?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Dubas is a stats nerd. He needs to find someone else to negotiate contracts.

 

[SprDaVE]

paying 4 forward over 25% of your team's cap isn't a good idea.

Dumbas is playing Santa Claus, so ya it's on him.

Again, I don't begrudge a player taking what's offered as long as they realize it comes with expectations.

Why do I have to make myself feel better, I have nothing to do with what junior's doing?

It's in line with what Pittsburgh and Chicago paid their top 4 forwards when they were busy winning cups. They were at, around or over 25% of their cap allocated to forwards.

And if the cap structure needs to be re-balanced for whatever reason, there's something called "NHL trades" that can change things quite a bit. Weird concept, I know.

"Junior" and "Dumbas" ... you're on a roll man!

 

[rumman]

It's in line with what Pittsburgh and Chicago paid their top 4 forwards when they were busy winning cups. They were at, around or over 25% of their cap allocated to forwards.

And if the cap structure needs to be re-balanced for whatever reason, there's something called "NHL trades" that can change things quite a bit. Weird concept, I know.

"Junior" and "Dumbas" ... you're on a roll man!

thank you, which do you prefer?

 

[Discoverer]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

 

[Mess]

Dubas is not concerned about getting 8 years for Leafs core players, he just focused on getting them signed as his top priority.

He is creating a 5 year window for the team with all hands on deck and running 2 X #1C "strength down the middle".

If Leafs haven't won the Cup during this time, Dubas is likely gone and he won't care once all these players hit UFA status as it will be someone else's problem.

If the Leafs do win a Cup, then the goal will be achieved and then +5 years from now what happens won't really matter, even if players walk and new rebuild happens.

 

[howlman]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

Everyone read this carefully, so people can stop crying about Dubas and Matthews deal

 

[HOF Paul Henderson]

Posted that during our losing streak before the muzzin deal. Leafs are playing much better in their last 4 games. As for dubas, he has signed two players for too much money and too little term. If we get out in the first round again, hopefully either him or Babcock get replaced.

He locked up two star centres, got us a top 4 d-man and it’s cost the team very little thus far. You’re being ridiculous.

 

[SprDaVE]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

Damn, what a shame that we won't be able to win the cup with this roster.

Over before it started.

Dubas sucks.

 

[leafsrule123]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

Unfortunately it’s all the bad contracts, Marleau, Zaitsev, etc taking up a lot of the other cap. Dubas will have to dump Marleau next season and all the boys on the team will be upset but they did it to theirselves by asking for over the moon contracts

 

[leafs in five]

I think an underappreciated outcome of the past 2+ years of political reality TV hellworld is this fixation on negotiation/dealmaking as like the foundational element to organisational/political success. this idea that someone with a better poker face could have signed Nylander to 5x5 and Matthews to 10x8 seems tied spiritually or in some sort of popular imaginary to e.g. the UK conservatives running a whole election campaign on their ability to better negotiate with what is basically an immovable bureaucracy.

 

[thewave]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

40m is like 48% of our cap. Those teams had well under 45% of their cap to top 4 players including D. Our team would be unbalanced. The penguins teams have two forwards that are literally better than Matthews and anyone else on our team. It's not really the same thing.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

. this idea that someone with a better poker face could have signed Nylander to 5x5 and Matthews to 10x8 seems tied spiritually or in some sort of popular imaginary

I imagined all of Boston's top line at a discount?

 

[Discoverer]

40m is like 48% of our cap. Those teams had well under 45% of their cap to top 4 players including D. Our team would be unbalanced. The penguins teams have two forwards that are literally better than Matthews and anyone else on our team. It's not really the same thing.

Sure, and all those teams spent significantly MORE on their next tier of players. Having Rielly, Muzzin, and Andersen for less than 17% of the cap allows the Leafs to spend more on their top players.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's in line with what Pittsburgh and Chicago paid their top 4 forwards when they were busy winning cups. They were at, around or over 25% of their cap allocated to forwards.

And if the cap structure needs to be re-balanced for whatever reason, there's something called "NHL trades" that can change things quite a bit. Weird concept, I know.

"Junior" and "Dumbas" ... you're on a roll man!

Has Chicago won a cup since those big contracts kicked in?

Pittsburgh struggled for a half decade after they signed them. It wasn’t until the cap went up by enough to call those contacts bargains that they started winning again.

 

[rumman]

Sure, and all those teams spent significantly MORE on their next tier of players. Having Rielly, Muzzin, and Andersen for less than 17% of the cap allows the Leafs to spend more on their top players.

for the short term.............

 

[Mickey Marner]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

Excellent post. Allocating the majority of your cap space into your best players is how you win cups. People of HF are just dimwits who would rather Roman Josi at 4M than Crosby at 8.7M.

Our two worst contracts were signed by Lou, for those keeping score. Why are they the worst? Because they're not very good players.

 

[inthe6ix]

Dubas is a stats nerd. He needs to find someone else to negotiate contracts.

ok he's the GM, but doesn't he have to clear any contract negotiations with Shanny and co. or can he unilaterally make his own contract decisions and figures? suspect just like trades he'd have to get buy in from the whole team and upper mgmt .. or is that just how the Oilers operate the ****show they have over there??

 

[Bomber0104]

Excellent post. Allocating the majority of your cap space into your best players is how you win cups. People of HF are just dimwits who would rather Roman Josi at 4M than Crosby at 8.7M.

Our two worst contracts were signed by Lou, for those keeping score. Why are they the worst? Because they're not very good players.

And our two best contracts were signed by Lou - Rielly and Andersen. Honorable mention to Kadri.

 

[HOF Paul Henderson]

WHY did he not wait till after the playoffs if this was the deal? Someone answer me this without forcing a positive spin on it.

What was he going to ask at most after the playoffs, $12.5 M? Fine then we'd get an 8 year deal if he tried that. And this assumes that he'd have an amazing playoff performance and we win like 2 rounds.

He waited on Nylander and look what happened. This time, he saw a chance to lock up his star centre for 5 years and took it.

If he were to get into a long, drawn out battle with Matthews the way he did with Nylander, just to wind up signing the same kind of deal Matthews has now signed, what does that accomplish?

Keep your stars happy and on the ice.

Dubas had very few options here:

Go to war with Matthews like with Nylander and risk another bitter dispute with a star player - leading to that player either sitting out or getting the contract he got anyway.

Or trading him and getting poor value on the trade, and probably being fired for losing Matthews.

Or just doing what he did. Getting the deal done. No more worries about offer sheets or any other bullshite.

You guys seem to want him to become professor X and mind control Matthews and his agents. Do you think sports agents are stupid? Do you think they don’t know exactly what you and I know? Do you think another GM, like Lamoriello, who singed the Marleau and Zeitsev deals, would have done better? Lou is the reason we probably won’t be able to keep Kappy, not Dubas. And let’s not forget that when the Kadri deal was signed nobody knew he would turn into the player he has become, same goes for Riley.

Let’s compare our GM to some others:

Don Sweeny, the guy everyone loves for the Pasternak deal, also traded Dougie Hamilton to Calgary for nothing. He traded Lucic to the Kings and had to retain 2.7 million of his salary. 2.7 million just to give someone away.

Jim Rutherford wound up having a miracle handed to him on a silver platter. Crosby, Malkin, and a deal to pick up Kessel from Lou without having to pay his full salary.

Yzerman on Tampa has done extremely well - in a state that makes rich athletes pay almost zero taxes. He’s also not their GM anymore, he has retired. Full credit to him for what he accomplished, but he’s not even there anymore.

Peter Chairelli couldn’t turn 4 first round picks into a playoff appearance.
Now THAT man, is a failure. Deserved to be fired.


Dubas is an average to above average GM. He got us Muzzin, Tavares, for cheap - and locked up Matthews. It looks like we will be able to keep our star forwards in Nylander Matthews and Marner just like he said we would, for at least a 5 year cup window, which is a healthy amount of time and is arguably the best thing to happen to the TML in the last 50 years.

 

[JamesMcNulty215]

To answer the OP , I don’t really trust Dubas on the negotiations, yet.

He seems to be learning on the job and practically admitted as much post Nylander signing. It’s unfortunate this period could define the next next decade and beyond for the leafs.

My main frustration is that we have been front loading / lockout proofing these contracts and getting little in return. It’s a huge thing that barely any teams in the league can do. I don’t like taking runs at Dubas but Lou would have leveraged the shit out of the bonuses that the Leafs are currently giving out.

I still have faith in Dubas overall but negotiations seems his weakest skill so far. I think he’s lost both negotiations 70/30. It hasn’t been a whitewash but the players got everything they wanted. Everything. High averages, low term, front loaded, lock out proof, no trade for Matthews. I’m a bit disappointed.

 

[willmma]

He waited on Nylander and look what happened. He saw a chance to lock up his star centre for 5 years and took it.

If he were to get into a long, drawn out battle with Matthews the way he did with Nylander, just to wind up signing the same kind of deal Matthews had signed, what does that accomplish?

Keep your stars happy and on the ice.

Dubas has very few options here:

Go to war with Matthews like with Nylander and risk another bitter dispute with a star player - leading to that player either sitting out or getting the contract he got anyway.

Or trading him and getting poor value on the trade, and probably being fired for losing Matthews.

Or just doing what he did. Getting the deal done. No more worries about offer sheets or any other bull****e.

You guys seem to want him to become professor X and mind control Matthews and his agents. Do you think sports agents are stupid? Do you think they don’t know exactly what you and I know? Do you think another GM, like Lamoriello, who singed the Marleau and Zeitsev deals, would have done better? Lou is the reason we probably won’t be able to keep Kappy, not Dubas. And let’s not forget that when the Kadri deal was signed nobody knew he wouldn’t turn into what he has become, same with Riley.

Let’s compare our GM to some others:

Don Sweeny, the guy everyone loves for the Pasternak deal, also traded Dougie Hamilton to Calgary for nothing. He traded Lucic to the Kings and had to retain 2.7 million of his salary. 2.7 million just to give someone away.

Jim Rutherford wound up having a miracle handed to him on a silver platter. Crosby, Malkin, and a deal to pick up Kessel from Lou without having to pay his full salary.

Yzerman on Tampa has done extremely well - in a state that makes rich athletes pay almost zero taxes. He’s also not their GM anymore, he has retired. Full credit to him for what he accomplished, but he’s not even there anymore.

Peter Chairelli couldn’t turn 4 first round picks into a playoff appearance. Now that man is a failure. Deserved to be fired.


Dubas is an average to above average GM. He got us Muzzin, Tavares, for cheap - and locked up Matthews. It looks like we will be able to keep our star forwards in Nylander Matthews and Marner just like he said we would, for at least a 5 year cup window, which is a healthy amount of time and is arguably the best thing to happen to the TML in the last 50 years.

This post wins the thread!

 

[Discoverer]

for the short term.............

View attachment 183511

I mean... yeah. That's how it worked with all those other teams, too. Contracts expire and you have to move players around and some of them get more expensive and some of them need to be replaced. It's not unique to the Leafs.

 

[TheGreatOne11]

If Marner ends up signing for $11 million, the Leafs will have 65% of their cap space allocated to their top four forwards, top pairing defensemen, and starting goalie for 2018-19.

The 2017-18 Capitals were at 63%.
The 2016-17 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2015-16 Penguins were at 65%.
The 2014-15 Blackhawks were at 60%.
The 2013-14 Kings were at 66%.

It's going to be ok.

Puts it into perspective a bit, still feel Matthews is overpaid on a shorter contract then I would have liked, but, we will have a strong cup team for the next 3-5 years.

 

[leafs in five]

I imagined all of Boston's top line at a discount?

Bergeron was 28? when he signed his deal, which was over 5 years ago, what are we even talking about here