Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Who said anything about Yzerman? The gulf in talent and abilities between the average Joe and even the worst professional athlete or executive is unimaginable. That's the part you don't understand. Full of yourself and don't know what you don't know. You're wrong. Everyone who answered yes? Also wrong. No one on this forum is qualified to outperform any NHL GM. Even the worst ones.

I mean, if we're playing the semantic game with the question posed anyway, then the question wasn't "are you qualified to outperform Dorion?" but rather "Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?"

I agree that most who are saying yes probably overestimate their ability to step right into the job, but also agree with @Agent Zub in saying that the athlete vs. front office exec analogy isn't an especially good one. One involves physical strength and years and years of training. The other involves business acumen and the ability to think quickly. The latter two can be learned a lot more easily.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Trading down with the Kaendre Miller trade might be the worst of all. Hoffman is one of the worst value trades of all time. Fail to see how Pageau deal is any good until Greig actually plays in the league thats a TBD. Burrows was terrible they had to buy him out. Unless they had talks with Duchene about an extension then its really bad. They squandered the return on Duclair situation.

From all the reports Murray had lost it, bad pro scouting he clearly has some sort of issue with his health, mental physical i dont know. Stepan trade horrible, Gudbranson AND Brown horrible. Del Zotto signing made no sense with Brannstrom.

When you burn it to the ground having a bunch of star players in their prime as part of the fire sale you should have more at this point. The sens somehow after being a bottom 5 team for 5 straight years (one year picking 10) have no high end forward prospects coming. They have some good players but nothing elite.

Can't argue with the lack of one more elite player coming down the pike. I think if Greig is offered for Pageau at this moment, it's an easy yes.

The Stepan trade was so bad, I had forgotten about that. Gudbransson was ok, but we needed a real top 4.

Again, unfortunately for every positive move Dorion makes, there's a trail of garbage and that's gonna cost him his job soon (it should have already).

I hate to go into this off-season knowing he's at the helm and knowing this is the off-season to define us for the next 7 years.

 

[OD99]

Again, this thread isn't titled "Are there other professionals in the NHL who would be better at Dorion's job?" The answer to that question is a yes. Without question. This thread, speaking to average fans, is asking if any of them could have outperformed Dorion at his job and the majority have said yes so far.

Let me put it another way:

I wouldn't expect someone who never went to teacher's college or worked in a school as a teacher to be able to perform those duties well.

There were literally people off the street becoming teachers during the pandemic and just about every mother/father in the world is a teacher to some degree but had to balance normal work AND teaching during the pandemic.

I wouldn't expect someone who never went to culinary school or worked at least 10 years in a professional kitchen to walk in and assume the roles of chef de cuisine.

Of course not, that is a very specialized role requiring intimate knowledge of food chemistry. Could someone with some business acumen run the kitchen while trusting the head chef to make good food? Absolutely.

I wouldn't expect someone who didn't go to medical school or didn't work in a hospital/healthcare setting for a long stretch of time to walk in and perform the roles of a medical practitioner.

I don't think this really requires an answer?

Here's some things the average person probably doesn't take into consideration when they make that kind of statement:

1. Experience sitting in on pre-draft scouting meetings
2. Experience interviewing draft eligible players
3. Experience reviewing player development reports and creating updated player development paths for players
4. Experience working with a capologist
5. Experience conducting trade discussions
6. Experience negotiating with player agents for contract extensions and UFA signings
7. Experience navigating the quagmire of having worked for Melnyk
8. Experience reading and countersigning SPCs
9. Experience conducting trade calls
10. Experience conducting hiring interviews for coaches, AGMs and other front office staff under the purview of the GM
11. Experience working with the media and conducting interviews (everyone thinks he's terrible but I'm guessing no one who says they'd easily outperform him have ever spoken to the media in this type of context)
12. Experience scouting pro players during trade discussions
13. Experience watching and breaking down game tape
14. Experience with the software and data collection tools used by the Senators
15. Experience managing a team of scouts spread across North America and Europe

Many of these things could be learned or already learned from being in a business environment and a lot of it would still rely on using the experts in the field to gain their insight and make the best solution. You think Dorion is writing out contracts himself? Breaking down the game tape to send to DJ? There is a bunch of stuff about managing people in there...that is a basic function of anyone who make management in almost any work environment. I was managing people when I was 18 years old.

.Think of it this way: there's a lot of people who are athletic and think they could compete with professional athletes in certain sports. The difference between an elite amateur athlete and say a bottom performing professional athlete is probably relatively small. The difference between an average Joe and the worst performing professional athlete in a sport is laughably large. It's only hubris that makes the average Joe think they could have hit that bad pitch or made that "easy" touchdown catch or stopped that flubbed shot that went in or made that open layup. If you reduce the entire exercise to "could that average Joe, given one opportunity, make that play?" then the answer leaves room for some discussion. But the actual question is "could that average Joe, over a period of 5 years, consistently make those plays"? and the answer there is a hell f***ing no.

This is the peak of your entire strawman argument. Being a GM has nothing to do with being a pro athlete so no idea why you would bring this up.

 

[OD99]

I think being a manager of a professional sports organization is a hundred times more complicated and demanding than people on this board realize.

The GM oversees everything;

1) training department (rehab, physiotherapy, medical);
2) scouting;
3) logistics and accounting, (the budget)
4) media and PR:
5) the coaches;
6) negotiations (with current and prospective players)

etc. etc, There's probably many other things that we have no idea about.

It looks simple and fun to the posters on this board because they watch games, listen to podcasts and play fantasy hockey. But I would guess it's an incredibly demanding, high pressure job.. like 80-90 hour weeks. The kind of job that ages you by a decade.

It's a dream job for anyone who is passionate about hockey.

All the stuff you listed falls in line with any big business. The CEO of a company isn't running the Inside Sales people and HR then whipping up a design for marketing to use before heading down the plant to put the final micro chip in to the board before he calls UPS to ship it.

This probably comes off the wrong way and I don't mean to sound condescending but all of this stuff is inline with any big business that is out there. You manage the people you have and you listen to their reports and then you adjust your strategy accordingly as circumstances change. You rely on the people you hire to do their job (and you hopefully hire the correct people to begin with). You guide the process, provide insight and support and LISTEN to what others have to say before making big decisions - you also listen to your gut.

Yes it has it's specifics but Dorion isn't strapping on the blades to show Jimmy how go from the Mohawk to a punch-turn in the corner to create space. He isn't posting on the Sens social media (although that would be great) before running to look at all the revenue from tickets & merch before whipping up a contract.

 

[Tragedy]

Trading down with the Kaendre Miller trade might be the worst of all. Hoffman is one of the worst value trades of all time. Fail to see how Pageau deal is any good until Greig actually plays in the league thats a TBD. Burrows was terrible they had to buy him out. Unless they had talks with Duchene about an extension then its really bad. They squandered the return on Duclair situation.

From all the reports Murray had lost it, bad pro scouting he clearly has some sort of issue with his health, mental physical i dont know. Stepan trade horrible, Gudbranson AND Brown horrible. Del Zotto signing made no sense with Brannstrom.

When you burn it to the ground having a bunch of star players in their prime as part of the fire sale you should have more at this point. The sens somehow after being a bottom 5 team for 5 straight years (one year picking 10) have no high end forward prospects coming. They have some good players but nothing elite.

I agree with most of what you wrote but I don't think it's fair to say we have no high end forward prospects simply because Timmy was so good his first NHL game was on his 19th Birthday. Also, although Grieg is a ? until he actually plays, the kid is a man amongst boys in the Dub and I can't wait til he is playing in Ottawa. I'd argue he is a high end forward though he doesn't quite have the fanfare to go with it like a higher draft pick might.

While I agree that Dorion has been handicapped by Melnyk and as someone else put it earlier in the thread he was running a marathon with a gorilla on his back, he sure could make it a lot easier if he stopped tying his shoelaces together

It's a dream job for anyone who is passionate about hockey.

All the stuff you listed falls in line with any big business. The CEO of a company isn't running the Inside Sales people and HR then whipping up a design for marketing to use before heading down the plant to put the final micro chip in to the board before he calls UPS to ship it.

This probably comes off the wrong way and I don't mean to sound condescending but all of this stuff is inline with any big business that is out there. You manage the people you have and you listen to their reports and then you adjust your strategy accordingly as circumstances change. You rely on the people you hire to do their job (and you hopefully hire the correct people to begin with). You guide the process, provide insight and support and LISTEN to what others have to say before making big decisions - you also listen to your gut.

Yes it has it's specifics but Dorion isn't strapping on the blades to show Jimmy how go from the Mohawk to a punch-turn in the corner to create space. He isn't posting on the Sens social media (although that would be great) before running to look at all the revenue from tickets & merch before whipping up a contract.

Do we know that for sure? Sounds like a way to save a few bucks. Who am I kidding, the Sens Social Media person isn't being paid in anything but exposure

 

[BankStreetParade]

There were literally people off the street becoming teachers during the pandemic and just about every mother/father in the world is a teacher to some degree but had to balance normal work AND teaching during the pandemic.

And who assesses whether they are performing better than the worst teachers who were in the job? What a daft thing to say. Again, quintessentially, you don't know what you don't know.

Of course not, that is a very specialized role requiring intimate knowledge of food chemistry. Could someone with some business acumen run the kitchen while trusting the head chef to make good food? Absolutely.

Wrong. The head chef also manages the business side of the kitchen including ordering, product, labour, menu pricing, etc. There are no business people running kitchens while the "chef makes good food". LOL. At least pretend you live in the real world.

Many of these things could be learned or already learned from being in a business environment and a lot of it would still rely on using the experts in the field to gain their insight and make the best solution. You think Dorion is writing out contracts himself? Breaking down the game tape to send to DJ? There is a bunch of stuff about managing people in there...that is a basic function of anyone who make management in almost any work environment. I was managing people when I was 18 years old.

This is the peak of your entire strawman argument. Being a GM has nothing to do with being a pro athlete so no idea why you would bring this up.

I love when you guys misuse first year philosophy terms in some sort of overarching gotcha to definitively create an impression that you've won the argument. Very fun exercise but I'll avoid participating going forward. Keep patting yourselves on the back believing you would have outperformed even the worst GM in the NHL with nothing more than "well I could have learned some stuff along the way" as the winds in your sails.

 

[OD99]

And who assesses whether they are performing better than the worst teachers who were in the job? What a daft thing to say. Again, quintessentially, you don't know what you don't know.

I do.

Wrong. The head chef also manages the business side of the kitchen including ordering, product, labour, menu pricing, etc. There are no business people running kitchens while the "chef makes good food". LOL. At least pretend you live in the real world.

I see you could use one of the new, untrained teachers that are available to help with reading comprehension. You missed the point so now read it again and try to understand or have someone else explain it to you.

I love when you guys misuse first year philosophy terms in some sort of overarching gotcha to definitively create an impression that you've won the argument. Very fun exercise but I'll avoid participating going forward. Keep patting yourselves on the back believing you would have outperformed even the worst GM in the NHL with nothing more than "well I could have learned some stuff along the way" as the winds in your sails.

Man it sounds like things will be tough for you. Not sure what your skill may be (it isn't giving zingers on a message board but appreciate the effort) but you clearly don't think it could be applied outside whatever you do now. You can never learn anything new or adapt to anything different.

Good talk.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I mean, if we're playing the semantic game with the question posed anyway, then the question wasn't "are you qualified to outperform Dorion?" but rather "Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?"

I agree that most who are saying yes probably overestimate their ability to step right into the job, but also agree with @Agent Zub in saying that the athlete vs. front office exec analogy isn't an especially good one. One involves physical strength and years and years of training. The other involves business acumen and the ability to think quickly. The latter two can be learned a lot more easily.

That's not semantics, it's a qualification of the statement "I would have outperformed Dorion". There's a difference between people establishing their qualifications as they go vs. already possessing enough skills and attributes to outperform someone in that type of job during the same time period.

This whole thread reminds of that time they did a poll and found 1 in 8 men thought they could score a point against Serena Williams. LOL.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I do.

I see you could use one of the new, untrained teachers that are available to help with reading comprehension. You missed the point so now read it again and try to understand or have someone else explain it to you.

Man it sounds like things will be tough for you. Not sure what your skill may be (it isn't giving zingers on a message board but appreciate the effort) but you clearly don't think it could be applied outside whatever you do now. You can never learn anything new or adapt to anything different.

Good talk.

Pay 2 people to do 1 job? And you're saying you would be a better GM than the one we have now? LOL. Good effort!

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

That's not semantics, it's a qualification of the statement "I would have outperformed Dorion". There's a difference between people establishing their qualifications as they go vs. already possessing enough skills and attributes to outperform someone in that type of job during the same time period.

This whole thread reminds of that time they did a poll and found 1 in 8 men thought they could score a point against Serena Williams. LOL.

It's absolutely semantics. Qualifications do not equal skill. Nobody has the qualifications to be a GM, but it says nothing of how they'd perform in the role. We agree on the fact that folks on this board would not do better than Dorion as a general rule, so I find it weird that you choose to argue this point. Examples of people with qualifications but no skill are rampant in the world.

And your latter point again leans very heavily on the same point I disputed in my other post: pro athlete is not a suitable analogue to front office exec.

 

[OD99]

Pay 2 people to do 1 job? And you're saying you would be a better GM than the one we have now? LOL. Good effort!

Are you intentionally this obtuse?

Fine, I will explain it...your comparison about a chef was ridiculous to begin with. Why not add in rocket scientist while you are at it.

There are extreme specifics to the actual food creation part that you can only learn by studying/creating/experimenting and repeat until you get it.

All the other stuff - let's call it the real world business stuff that a GM who is managing the business would handle - could be run by anyone with business acumen and common sense.

Is that spelled out well enough for you?

 

[Sweatred]

And who assesses whether they are performing better than the worst teachers who were in the job? What a daft thing to say. Again, quintessentially, you don't know what you don't know.

Wrong. The head chef also manages the business side of the kitchen including ordering, product, labour, menu pricing, etc. There are no business people running kitchens while the "chef makes good food". LOL. At least pretend you live in the real world.

I love when you guys misuse first year philosophy terms in some sort of overarching gotcha to definitively create an impression that you've won the argument. Very fun exercise but I'll avoid participating going forward. Keep patting yourselves on the back believing you would have outperformed even the worst GM in the NHL with nothing more than "well I could have learned some stuff along the way" as the winds in your sails.

This is pretty funny …

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's absolutely semantics. Qualifications do not equal skill. Nobody has the qualifications to be a GM, but it says nothing of how they'd perform in the role. We agree on the fact that folks on this board would not do better than Dorion as a general rule, so I find it weird that you choose to argue this point. Examples of people with qualifications but no skill are rampant in the world.

And your latter point again leans very heavily on the same point I disputed in my other post: pro athlete is not a suitable analogue to front office exec.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word qualification. Qualifiers are meant to add context to the points being made, either affecting or enhancing. I'm saying blanket statements with no context are stupid. "I'd be better than X at Y" is sorta meaningless without establishing the credentials and skills of the person making the statement. I keep seeing people make the argument that a lot of the job can be learned on the go and the point I keep making is that wouldn't apply because we're looking at a retrospective time period.

So the same people saying they would have done a better job are also the same people saying they wouldn't have had most of the skills and abilities from the beginning to do that job better. They massively over-inflate and overestimate their own capabilities without understanding the limitations. This argument doesn't even take into account the truly unknowns like what's it like to work with Melnyk? How much responsibility does the GM have that would normally fall within the scope of 2-3 other roles? What is the true sentiment among pending free agents about Ottawa as a potential destination?

There's so much nuance to the question glossed over by armchair GMs who can't even win their own shitty fantasy leagues. It's not surprising but it's also really surprising.

 

[OD99]

I think you misunderstood my use of the word qualification. Qualifiers are meant to add context to the points being made, either affecting or enhancing. I'm saying blanket statements with no context are stupid. "I'd be better than X at Y" is sorta meaningless without establishing the credentials and skills of the person making the statement. I keep seeing people make the argument that a lot of the job can be learned on the go and the point I keep making is that wouldn't apply because we're looking at a retrospective time period.

So the same people saying they would have done a better job are also the same people saying they wouldn't have had most of the skills and abilities from the beginning to do that job better. They massively over-inflate and overestimate their own capabilities without understanding the limitations. This argument doesn't even take into account the truly unknowns like what's it like to work with Melnyk? How much responsibility does the GM have that would normally fall within the scope of 2-3 other roles? What is the true sentiment among pending free agents about Ottawa as a potential destination?

There's so much nuance to the question glossed over by armchair GMs who can't even win their own shitty fantasy leagues. It's not surprising but it's also really surprising.

What do you think makes the position so unique that barely anyone should even consider they could do it/learn to do it?

It's business! It's asset management, creating a proper culture, cultivating the talent you have and finding ways to attract new and better talent while retaining the talent you have.

Salary cap happens in all business as well - no business has an infinite amount of money to add unlimited resources so you need to determine where your focus will be and what you will spend money on based on the impact it will have on your business.

Contract negotiations happen all the time with manufacturers, retail/office space, 3rd party agencies for cleaning/support/maintenance, etc...

There is a unique element almost all business and in this case it is dealing with pro athletes which is why you have specialists to help with that.

 

[Sweatred]

What do you think makes the position so unique that barely anyone should even consider they could do it/learn to do it?

It's business! It's asset management, creating a proper culture, cultivating the talent you have and finding ways to attract new and better talent while retaining the talent you have.

Salary cap happens in all business as well - no business has an infinite amount of money to add unlimited resources so you need to determine where your focus will be and what you will spend money on based on the impact it will have on your business.

Contract negotiations happen all the time with manufacturers, retail/office space, 3rd party agencies for cleaning/support/maintenance, etc...

There is a unique element almost all business and in this case it is dealing with pro athletes which is why you have specialists to help with that.

Imagine your first day on the job … uhhh … Gary ??? How do I execute a trade ? Where’s the form to call up Sokolov ??? let alone any fine details regarding anything about the operations of the league/contracts.

You wouldn’t survive your first day and your office manager would effectively be the GM. How would you get any respect from 20 year old multimillionaires or any of the trainers, coaches etc. the security guard knows more about the operations of the league than you would.

There is zero chance you could outperform Dorion in the GM role.

 

[OD99]

Imagine your first day on the job … uhhh … Gary ??? How do I execute a trade ? Where’s the form to call up Sokolov ??? let alone any fine details regarding anything about the operations of the league/contracts.

You wouldn’t survive your first day and your office manager would effectively be the GM. How would you get any respect from 20 year old multimillionaires or any of the trainers, coaches etc. the security guard knows more about the operations of the league than you would.

There is zero chance you could outperform Dorion in the GM role.

What completely dishonest way to try and engage in this conversation. Very on form.

I wouldn't be able to find the coffee either if I just snapped my fingers and found my way into the GM seat right now but that is such a ridiculous take I can't take anyone seriously who expects that's what people are talking about.

 

[Sweatred]

What completely dishonest way to try and engage in this conversation. Very on form.

I wouldn't be able to find the coffee either if I just snapped my fingers and found my way into the GM seat right now but that is such a ridiculous take I can't take anyone seriously who expects that's what people are talking about.

Hey … you’re the one who thinks there is nothing unique to the job …

My engagement with you on this topic Is limited to refuting it.

 

[OD99]

Hey … you’re the one who thinks there is nothing unique to the job …

Naaaa....you just don't want to admit your hypothetical of taking over the reins is no basis to start a convo. Anyone with business acumen could step in and understand the goings on fairly quickly - sorry if that concept seems too far fetched or intimidating to you.

It's good, I have come to not expect authentic engagement which is why I usually defer.

 

[Sweatred]

Naaaa....you just don't want to admit your hypothetical of taking over the reins is no basis to start a convo. Anyone with business acumen could step in and understand the goings on fairly quickly - sorry if that concept seems too far fetched or intimidating to you.

It's good, I have come to not expect authentic engagement which is why I usually defer.

I love that you assume the hockey piece doesn’t matter … or your hockey knowledge is obviously good enough to preform the job. Like the Sum of all your hockey experience combined with your business knowledge would let you “obviously” preform better than Dorion (who I think is a 20 year glorified scout).

 

[OD99]

I love that you assume the hockey piece doesn’t matter … or your hockey knowledge is obviously good enough to preform the job. Like the Sum of all your hockey experience combined with your business knowledge would let you “obviously” preform better than Dorion (who I think is a 20 year glorified scout).

Nice to see you back off the ridiculous.

I never said I would obviously do better than Dorion. I am trying to set aside the idea that being a GM of a hockey team is so different from many other businesses.

In any industry move you need time to learn the finer points but in the end its same but different.

 

[Sweatred]

Nice to see you back off the ridiculous.

I never said I would obviously do better than Dorion. I am trying to set aside the idea that being a GM of a hockey team is so different from many other businesses.

In any industry move you need time to learn the finer points but in the end its same but different.

A comment like this sugar coats a false positive … the reality is everyone here has voted “yes” lacks the hockey intelligence to fulfil the role.

 

[JD1]

I think part of the problem with Dorion is that he has no credibility so other GMs just straight up take advantage of him. I'd have even less than Dorion so that would remain an issue.

I'm fairly confident of the following:
- wouldn't have traded Zbad in a million years (commented directly after that it was absurd)
- would not have sought out a high priced goalie via trade/free agency at that time i.e. Matt Murray
- would have made same Karlsson trade as nothing better on offer most likely
- would not have traded for Duchesne
- would have tried to re-sign Duclair/Demelo
- would not have traded Ceci for a trade involving Zaitsev
- would not have signed Stone to a 1 year deal. Instant trade prior.
- I'd be better at talking to the media than him.
- I would have sat Hoffman than trade him for peanuts. If the deal from Florida is there for me I dont care that he's in the same conference.
- Stepan, Burrows, hard no's for a #2 round pick.
- I can't see picking Boucher based on him being such a project and where the team was at. Jury is still out there though.

Things he would do better 100%:
- Zub/drafting
- I might have signed Pageau to too much $
- I might have signed Stone to big $
- White contract I'd be just as bad probably

In general, as a budget team:
- don't trade picks/prospects for vets
- don't sign aging players to monster deals
- don't spend big on a goalie
- don't take on dead salary unless you are getting picks/young players to compensate (no Zaitsev)

So, in summary, I might have done slightly better than him, but only if I was able to draft decently, which I would have absolutely no clue about. Possible I screw that up and don't take Tkachuck, Stutzle, Batherson, Sanderson, though those were mostly high-end picks. But in my hypothetical dream world Dorion is my Director of Amateur scouting so we make the same picks

I have seen it written a few times that he has no credibility amongst GMs. Do you recall Dorion being nominated for GM of the year? Who votes for that? GMs vote for that. Since that nomination he absolutely fleeced Doug Wilson on the Karlsson trade.

You're not going to win every trade. Dorion obviously hasn't won every trade but he certainly hasn't lost every trade either.

Let's hope recent events make his job a bit easier rolling forward

 

[JD1]

Probably about the same or maybe worse running the team but almost certainly better at public relations and interactions with sports media. I can't fathom some times how much Dorion loves shoving his foot in his own mouth. "we're a team", "trading mark stone is my proudest moment", etc etc etc... just terrible at public speaking.

I agree with you that PD is terrible at media relations. That said, how many guys here actually have real experience in public speaking? It's not easy to speak on controversial topics in an unscripted manner and have 1000s of pundits scrutinize every word that comes out of your mouth.

I don't imagine that there is a single person on this board that has any significant experience with the types of situations Dorion is in.

I have actually seen some superb paragraphs put together by guys in here on what he should have said. But that's not public speaking, that's speech writing and the two are vastly different.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Nice to see you back off the ridiculous.

I never said I would obviously do better than Dorion. I am trying to set aside the idea that being a GM of a hockey team is so different from many other businesses.

In any industry move you need time to learn the finer points but in the end its same but different.

exactly… you need a lot of time to learn.

You also need to move up the ladder, and that is generally based on how well you have done and what you have accomplished. Like many folks in here, you may have known someone on the inside to start, but you don’t float to the top automatically. You earn it. It is isn’t years in the union protecting you for this type of job.

 

[JD1]

Are you intentionally this obtuse?

Fine, I will explain it...your comparison about a chef was ridiculous to begin with. Why not add in rocket scientist while you are at it.

There are extreme specifics to the actual food creation part that you can only learn by studying/creating/experimenting and repeat until you get it.

All the other stuff - let's call it the real world business stuff that a GM who is managing the business would handle - could be run by anyone with business acumen and common sense.

Is that spelled out well enough for you?

Do GMs run the business side of things? I thought most teams have CFOs, lawyers working on the contract/cap mgmt side, and people running business operations. We do. And we're the thinnest mgmt structure in the league I think.