Do you think this team is better or worse going into next season?

[TimeZone]

A lean offense? Legitimately what are you talking about? The Leafs will have no issue scoring goals 5 of the top 6 forwards and now you have a 2nd waive of offensive depth coming up in Knies, Robertson, Mcmann, Cowan and Minten.

Bertuzzi loss will barely be felt.

The issue isn't scoring goals in the regular season, it's scoring 2 goals or less in 13 of their last 14 playoff games.

 

[Sypher04]

Being one the top scoring teams in the regular season and the worst in the playoffs isn’t a personnel issue offensively at forward position; or at least I’m not convinced it’s the primary issue.

The entire team underperforming offensively in the playoffs repeatedly year after year, despite changing players, is indicative imo of bigger problems. Such as a coaching staff not knowing how to get the team to tighten up their defensive play without sacrificing the effectiveness of the offense to do it.

Our inability from the backend to move the puck effectively and generate point shots was a significant part of this, so it’s not entirely on the coaching but these things combined see us expending far too much time and energy simply trying to clear our zone.

It was far too common for our guys to chase the puck defensively for the better part of their shift and not have enough left in the tank to mount a meaningful counterattack or have to change to keep shifts short.

 

[-DeMo-]

JT gets his points leeching off 90 plus point play driving wingers , lets stop acting like he does anything other than hang around the crease/slot waiting to be fed .

hopefully i just have only one more year of reading people making excuses for his play , 6 yrs is more than enough for me !

cool lets just buyout Tavares then and play that line 4 on 5 since Tavares does nothing it should be the exact same results right?

 

[hotpaws]

cool lets just buyout Tavares then and play that line 4 on 5 since Tavares does nothing it should be the exact same results right?

or maybe we can throw him on 3rd line wing where he belongs for his last year to limit the damage at even strength and stop pretending he's a quality 2nd line C because he gets propped up by two elite level 90pt play driving wingers as i explained to you before

 

[conFABulator]

I'll take the opposing view in part based on the repeated use of words like "looks to be" and "should" and that this team, despite the revolving door of players lately has been getting progressively worse each year since their record-breaking '20-21 season.

- Berube's impact is a huge question mark. The team might respond at first as players always want to look good in front of a new coach but the history of this team suggests the players will win any showdown so it could get interesting if Craig starts making examples of players - specifically stars.

- Tanev is a big add but he does have an extensive injury history and he's not getting any younger. OEL was playing sheltered minutes in Florida, so my concern is that the money he's getting suggests a bigger role that he might not be suited for. We'll see.

- Special teams. Too much bad history of their special teams failing them in the playoffs for me to be optimistic. At times they've been lethal in the regular season so the talent is there but when it counts, not so much.

- Yes, they'll score a lot of goals. But again, in the playoffs there's no one in this group that's ever - not once - gone on a heater. I'm talking PPG+ for the stars, just taken over a series, etc. And the bottom six just doesn't have the fire power needed, an ongoing problem when half the cap is wrapped up in 4 forwards.

- Youngsters. As with all non-elite prospects it's wait and see. And not sure where they're going fit in, if at all.

- Goaltending. Woll has to stay healthy. Stolarz should be an improvement over Sammy but always be skeptical of goalies with strong numbers coming from strong defensive teams. And unless one of these two gets really good really fast, neither is a Bobrovsky or Vasilevskiy in the making. And considering this team's inability to score late in series, they really need a Bob/Vas.

- Lastly, it's rinse and repeat time again. Same core, therefore the same result. I think Berube could be the key to turning that around but I'm far from convinced he's going to get this entitled, over-paid, coddled group to buy into the type of hockey they have to play to win in the playoffs. In fact, I'm highly doubtful.

I appreciate the lengthy reply and thought.

It is a forward looking projection, of course it is going to have terms like "looks to be" and "should".

As much as you put thought into your response it all really boils down to you being negative because you don't believe in the core four, which is reasonable based on playoff performance, but that really is what your points largely boil down to.

(1) Yes, a new coach is a question mark. You are saying because these guys played and behaved in a certain way under the old coach and GM, they will always be this way? There are hundreds of examples of new coach, new culture and those that don't play along are shipped out or self-select out. You have no way of knowing how anyone will respond this season. Berube seems like a changemaker to me and has been in the past.

(2) Yep. Tanev is old and has an injury history. That's a risk. He has averaged 74 GP per year over the last three years though. OEL showed he can step up when needed, he played a key role when Ekblad and Montour were out. Then he settled into a role similar to what is being asked if him here...a #4 or #5 dman. Let's remember these two, and Haakanpaa are replacing Brodie, Giordano and Klingberg from opening night last year. This thread is about them being better than last year, right? Benoit could be even better and so could Liljegren, D take time to develop. Don't underestimate the impact Tanev and OEL could have on those around them, the other D.

(3) Special teams. Too much bad history is your comment. Even though the PK now features Tanev, OEL and possibly Haakanpaa. The PP might get OEL. Both will have new coaches, schemes and philosophies. See my original point about you not believing change is possible.

(4) Offense in the playoffs. Let's see what the regular season is like first, no? Also, I am not a big excuse maker but if AM and WN were healthy the entire series we won last year. It's important to note that when saying these guys don't show up. They both did and then were hurt, or were hurt and then did.

(5) Yep it is wait and see on youngsters. It is also a numbers game. We need a couple of a fairly large group to hit. We don't even need them to be stars, just contributors. Cowan, Minten, Grebenkin all could contribute this year. We have Hirvonen and Tverberg after them. Niemela did everything we could have hoped for the Marlies last year. Webber is an actual wildcard and Danford is years away. Hildeby has a strong showing and is 6'7. We have not rushed prospects and this should start paying dividends. Perhaps a little or perhaps we have a two top six wingers, a middle six C, a top 4 dman and two solid young goalies? To suggest none of them pan out is more negative than I care to be.

(6) Yep, we need healthy goalies. Woll has injuries but of the unrelated and fluke variety. Stolarz has put up solid numbers (limited sample sizes) in Edmonton, Anaheim and Philadelphia too. They are the biggest variable in next year's equation. If they both play to their career norms over a full season we are a vastly improved team.

(7) Rinse and repeat? Let's see. I believe they wanted to move Marner and may still do it. They couldn't or couldn't get enough value. So, one more year or running it back? Two of the core four are in contract years. That has to count for something. As does a first full year of a new GM, a new coach and staff, a new D, and new goaltending tandem, and youth knocking on the door.

To summarize, better goaltending equals better year. Better goaltending + new coach having an impact equals a MUCH better year...they got 102 points last year with the 23rd best save percentage in the league. Being league average would have them allowing 15 to 20 fewer goals.

So, if you just don't believe in this team maybe you should sit on the sidelines as a fan, if you believe change is possible then this could be another interesting year as a fan of a team on a journey.

 

[thusk]

Sorry, but Im not buying that line of thinking. Of course a good defense group will help. Thing is our defense has been fine the last couple of years going into the playoffs and actually preformed pretty good as did our secondary scoring. Every year its the same problem, our top guys can't score when it matters and when you have 47% or is it 53% this yr of the cap invested in 4 forwards who are unable to score once the big dance starts, thats the problem and has been the problem all along.

Matthews a 69 goal scorer has one goal and 6 pts in his last 10 playoff games? marner with 2 goals and 5pts in his last 10....Tavares 1 goal 3pts in his last 10 and Nylander with 5goals and 6 points......that doesn't cut it. How many different ways do we have to change things around the core to get to the place that they are the common denominator in the failure that is the leafs post season? Stop giving them a pass and put the blame where it belongs....the core 4.

When the ice become tight and have to fight for every ince on the ice. In playoff basically every player working harder on backchecking, on forecheck, to win his spot in the slot or whateve4.

26 of last 46 playoff leafs goal was result of an outside boxes shot or kund of dump who had been deflected and like probably 12 to 14 came from Tampa series where Vasilevskiy was unable to stop anything.

Off 22 goal remaining, probably like 16 who came from counter attack. So if you're thinking leafs will win by cycling and try to make play with pass on middle on defensive b9xes or taking outside shot. Its not how you will create more scoring. start to put pressure and force turnover t9 get clean scoring chance.

If the only shot you've got from the slot, youre under pressure with like 2-3 player in shooting lane+ goalie, the chance to score is not the same than get a clean shot with no pressure and no body to block your shot. The probability to goes in is also not the same

 

[Evilhomer]

You perhaps need to spend some time looking into how both Ferris and Treliving operate.

Once the season starts, there's no Marner trade coming. That's it. Treliving rarely does big in-season trades while his team is destined for the playoffs.

And Ferris walks his clients to free agency attempting to establish that his client has all the leverage. He's also bleeding clients, meaning he needs a huge deal off Marner.

Marner isn't getting traded, and this is going to go down to free agency next summer. Thinking otherwise is a pipedream and completely ignores reality.

I'm not ignoring reality. The reality is that the Leafs are almost certainly going to resign Marner, whether that happens tomorrow or on June 30, 2025. The only caveat is the possibility of a trade before the season starts. Once it does start, I agree that he won't be traded.

 

[Enniskillen]

No improvement till Marner and JT are gone. Tanev is a warrior but Rielly was awful this postseason and should be a candidate for a trade.

 

[tuckerintensity]

Incredibly similar, really. I think we've pushed our chips into more Berube-type players and I thought a coaching change was needed, but for better or worse, the team is incredibly similar and we are filling holes in ways we've tried in the past. And again, I don't think that's a bad thing nor do I think it's obviously going to work either.

 

[Tak7]

Something we should all keep in mind - Keefe was an excellent regular season coach, and there's going to be some growing pains as the Leafs and Berube adjust to each other. When Paul Maurice took over the President's Trophy 58 win / 122 point Panthers, the following season they only managed 42 wins & 92 points.

There's some adjustment pain that comes from having a new coach in place, and especially someone with a fairly different approach than Keefe.

The Leafs have trended backwards in wins & points basically since stomping the North Division - any further steps backwards feel somewhat inevitable next season, which could see them right in the mix for the Wild Card race.

Feels like a scenario exists where the Leafs, similarly to Florida, end up stepping backwards in the standings next season, but still end up being a better team for it.

 

[Sypher04]

Something we should all keep in mind - Keefe was an excellent regular season coach, and there's going to be some growing pains as the Leafs and Berube adjust to each other. When Paul Maurice took over the President's Trophy 58 win / 122 point Panthers, the following season they only managed 42 wins & 92 points.

There's some adjustment pain that comes from having a new coach in place, and especially someone with a fairly different approach than Keefe.

The Leafs have trended backwards in wins & points basically since stomping the North Division - any further steps backwards feel somewhat inevitable next season, which could see them right in the mix for the Wild Card race.

Feels like a scenario exists where the Leafs, similarly to Florida, end up stepping backwards in the standings next season, but still end up being a better team for it.

Fair call out. I think there are plenty of counter examples however like Mike Sullivan, who took over in December 2015 from Mike Johnston and lead the team to back to back cups in 2016 and 2017.

 

[Confucius]

Berube will be a coach, that alone makes us much better next season.

Last time we had a member of the team with the nickname Chief, we know what happened. It’s an omen.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Something we should all keep in mind - Keefe was an excellent regular season coach, and there's going to be some growing pains as the Leafs and Berube adjust to each other. When Paul Maurice took over the President's Trophy 58 win / 122 point Panthers, the following season they only managed 42 wins & 92 points.

There's some adjustment pain that comes from having a new coach in place, and especially someone with a fairly different approach than Keefe.

The Leafs have trended backwards in wins & points basically since stomping the North Division - any further steps backwards feel somewhat inevitable next season, which could see them right in the mix for the Wild Card race.

Feels like a scenario exists where the Leafs, similarly to Florida, end up stepping backwards in the standings next season, but still end up being a better team for it.

I don't see a step back coming at all, mostly because with Samsonov gone I don't see the goaltending pissing away close to 15 points next season

 

[Sypher04]

I don't see a step back coming at all, mostly because with Samsonov gone I don't see the goaltending pissing away close to 15 points next season

If anything i could see a slow start, but how would that be different from any other year

 

[Maple Leaf]

No improvement till Marner and JT are gone. Tanev is a warrior but Rielly was awful this postseason and should be a candidate for a trade.

the players who get the most icetime are the same which means same result it's over before it began only way to change is to trade tavares and marner is such a thing even possible?

 

[Fogelhund]

the players who get the most icetime are the same which means same result it's over before it began only way to change is to trade tavares and marner is such a thing even possible?

The players who get the most ice time are typically D men. We have signed three NEW dmen.... So... the players who get the most ice time, are not the all the same. Top six in ice time the last two years, have been four D, Marner and Matthews. Likely the same this year.

They won't trade Tavares, nor Marner this offseason.

The coaching staff is completely different though, which could have a big affect on how the team performs.

 

[ACC1224]

The players who get the most ice time are typically D men. We have signed three NEW dmen.... So... the players who get the most ice time, are not the all the same. Top six in ice time the last two years, have been four D, Marner and Matthews. Likely the same this year.

They won't trade Tavares, nor Marner this offseason.

The coaching staff is completely different though, which could have a big affect on how the team performs.

For sure it will have an affect. All coaches are the same though, they give their most valuable players the most ice. That won’t change.

 

[Fogelhund]

For sure it will have an affect. All coaches are the same though, they give their most valuable players the most ice. That won’t change.

Of course... but the point was... we have indeed changed some of the names who will get top minutes... and while the coaches are likely to play the top players, the style they play, the PK, the PP... may all have some changes. That coaching may have the capacity to change our points by 10-15 points in either direction... who knows yet.

 

[Confucius]

Of course... but the point was... we have indeed changed some of the names who will get top minutes... and while the coaches are likely to play the top players, the style they play, the PK, the PP... may all have some changes. That coaching may have the capacity to change our points by 10-15 points in either direction... who knows yet.

I think a Berube coached team will win a couple more playoff games as well.

 

[notbias]

the players who get the most icetime are the same which means same result it's over before it began only way to change is to trade tavares and marner is such a thing even possible?

Why watch if you know the outcome? For scripted sports, wouldn't wrestling be more fun? The storyline is at least a lot more entertaining.

 

[mikeyz]

I'm not ignoring reality. The reality is that the Leafs are almost certainly going to resign Marner, whether that happens tomorrow or on June 30, 2025. The only caveat is the possibility of a trade before the season starts. Once it does start, I agree that he won't be traded.

I don't think Marner is getting resigned.

Why watch if you know the outcome? For scripted sports, wouldn't wrestling be more fun? The storyline is at least a lot more entertaining.

He's not wrong.

 

[notDatsyuk]

For sure it will have an affect. All coaches are the same though, they give their most valuable players the it's most ice. That won’t change.

The good news is that it's improving. Four years ago Marner was getting almost 6 minutes a game more than Nylander. The gap has been closing each year, and last year it was only about 1:20 difference, most of that being PK time.

Hopefully Berube gets it right this year.

 

[arso40]

The good news is that it's improving. Four years ago Marner was getting almost 6 minutes a game more than Nylander. The gap has been closing each year, and last year it was only about 1:20 difference, most of that being PK time.

Hopefully Berube gets it right this year.

take marner off the pk or put him on the second pk line atleast is a start

 

[notDatsyuk]

take marner off the pk or put him on the second pk line atleast is a start

Taking him of the first PP would help that too.

 

[IronHookem]

Taking him of the first PP would help that too.

They better remove Tavares from the PP1 unit before they even consider removing anyone else, but with Bert gone I'm not sure who they'd add instead.