Do you think this team is better or worse going into next season?

[notDatsyuk]

This is the most down I've been on the team in the Shanahan years.

I actuallly won't be surprised if they miss the playoffs. They were 21-20 at the halfway point last year. A new coach whose system the players don't like and a few questionable offseason signings.

Without any other changes I'm not convinced this team even makes the playoffs let lone contends for the cup.

At the halfway point last year they had 50 points. At that pace they would have ended with 100 points, only two fewer than the actually did, and comfortably in the playoffs.

We don't know that the players don't like Berube's system (there are a couple who probably won't), and the signings, while not great, haven't been bad, and the players are likely an improvement over those replaced.

I don't expect them to contend for the Cup; that went away with the signing of Tavares, and won't be anything more than a pipe dream until after next summer, but I do expect them to make the playoffs.

 

[notbias]

Just having a bit of fun - you keep saying there have been no changes despite them having been pointed out to you several times.

I won't bother repeating them again - I'll just keep laughing.

what major changes? No one has pointed them out because they don't exist.

"We have a hard nosed coach now", like Babcock?

"We have an over the hill defensive D", like Hainsey or Schenn?

Domi is the difference?

OEL?

Stolarz?

The team has improved slightly, but this is still the same team as last year, and the year before, and the year before, and so on.

 

[notDatsyuk]

All Treliving's done since coming here is give people raises, make questionable signings, and still hasn't made a change to the core of the team.

I juat don't see them doing any better thsn last year. And if they aren't gonna do any better then they will be doing worse. Which means missing the playoffs.

Especially if Ottawa, Buffalo, or Detroit take a step forward while the Leafs slide backwards it really wouldn't take much.

Please tell me how he could have done that - the two best are signed (reasonably) long term, and the other two have full NMCs that they are very unlikely to waive.

 

[notbias]

Please tell me how he could have done that - the two best are signed (reasonably) long term, and the other two have full NMCs that they are very unlikely to waive.

When he got brought on, he could have moved anyone but Tavares, no one had NMCs.

He tried with Nylander.

 

[notDatsyuk]

what major changes? No one has pointed them out because they don't exist.

"We have a hard nosed coach now", like Babcock?

"We have an over the hill defensive D", like Hainsey or Schenn?

Domi is the difference?

OEL?

Stolarz?

The team has improved slightly, but this is still the same team as last year, and the year before, and the year before, and so on.

Yes, you complain that there have been no changes, and when the changes are listed you change your complaint to "no major changes", and when it is explained to you that the major changes are impossible until next year, you complain there are no changes.

Round and round and round you go. Which is why I just laugh now.

 

[notbias]

Yes, you complain that there have been no changes, and when the changes are listed you change your complaint to "no major changes", and when it is explained to you that the major changes are impossible until next year, you complain there are no changes.

Round and round and round you go. Which is why I just laugh now.

Taking the no changes as literally as you did is interesting... I'll just leave it as that.

 

[notDatsyuk]

When he got brought on, he could have moved anyone but Tavares, no one had NMCs.

He tried with Nylander.

The talk about major changes was only this year.

I agree he might have been able to move Marner (likely only with Shanahan's ok) in that very brief window when he first arrived. He set his priority to signing the better two.

 

[Sypher04]

He tried with Nylander.

I’m sure he explored it but we have no evidence they ever actually wanted or intended to move him. Him not being traded is also not an indication that others teams were not willing to pay up for him

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

what major changes? No one has pointed them out because they don't exist.

"We have a hard nosed coach now", like Babcock?

"We have an over the hill defensive D", like Hainsey or Schenn?

Domi is the difference?

OEL?

Stolarz?

The team has improved slightly, but this is still the same team as last year, and the year before, and the year before, and so on.

There were major changes, the reason you say there were no major changes is because they weren't the ones YOU wanted so they don't count.

The reality is replacing almost the entire coaching staff is a major change.

reshaping half the defense is a major change.

Reshaping the goaltending is a major change.

But none of that counts to you because the ONLY thing you wanted was a Marner trade.

There was no Marner trade so there were no major changes, even though there were several major changes

 

[notbias]

There were major changes, the reason you say there were no major changes is because they weren't the ones YOU wanted so they don't count.

The reality is replacing almost the entire coaching staff is a major change.

reshaping half the defense is a major change.

Reshaping the goaltending is a major change.

But none of that counts to you because the ONLY thing you wanted was a Marner trade.

There was no Marner trade so there were no major changes, even though there were several major changes

The new coaching staff is the only major change.

Getting a backup goalie and a few bottom pairing D doesn't look like a major change to me.

I don't even mind that there was no change, but pretending like there is one is hilarious and just flat our wrong.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The new coaching staff is the only major change.

Getting a backup goalie and a few bottom pairing D doesn't look like a major change to me.

I don't even mind that there was no change, but pretending like there is one is hilarious and just flat our wrong.

Tanev and OEL are both legitimate top 4 D, to say they aren't isn't just wrong, it is also a lie.

Hakanpaa is a bottom pair but the other 2 are legitimate top 4 D.

And Yes I'm counting Hakanpaa because he signed a contract in Toronto

 

[notbias]

Tanev and OEL are both legitimate top 4 D, to say they aren't isn't just wrong, it is also a lie.

Hakanpaa is a bottom pair but the other 2 are legitimate top 4 D.

And Yes I'm counting Hakanpaa because he signed a contract in Toronto

Tanev is, but for how long?

OEL is a legit top 4D? Questionable, maybe.

Florida thought OEL was a #5 on their team when everyone was healthy.

Hakanpaa or Benoit is on the bench, they didn't sign Liljegren to his new deal to bench him.

 

[Racer88]

There were major changes, the reason you say there were no major changes is because they weren't the ones YOU wanted so they don't count.

The reality is replacing almost the entire coaching staff is a major change.

reshaping half the defense is a major change.

Reshaping the goaltending is a major change.

But none of that counts to you because the ONLY thing you wanted was a Marner trade.

There was no Marner trade so there were no major changes, even though there were several major changes

I think that many of us are saying that no major changes were made is because no changes were made that will make a difference. They have changed coaches and staff already with no difference, changed GM’s , no difference, change all of the supporting players with no difference in result reshaped the goalies multiple times , no difference so pretty much they haven’t made any meaningful major changes.

 

[peconcan]

Knies Matthews Marner
Nylander Domi Nylander
Robertson JT McMann
Holmberg Dewar Reaves
Trade Jarnkrok and Kampf for cap to help improve the 3rd pairing on D

Tanev Reilly
McCabe OEL
Beniot Lily

Woll
Stolarz
I wouldn’t mind seeing this opening night. I think our D has improved and we could have a pretty good top 6 if Domi plays like he did the 2nd half and Alex makes the team out of camp and has chemistry with Willy. Robertson could have a breakout year playing with Tavares, and JT also gets easier match ups playing down in the lineup

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think that many of us are saying that no major changes were made is because no changes were made that will make a difference. They have changed coaches and staff already with no difference, changed GM’s , no difference, change all of the supporting players with no difference in result reshaped the goalies multiple times , no difference so pretty much they haven’t made any meaningful major changes.

Part of the problem is what you mean by 'major changes'. It seems most posters look at it as meaning 'getting rid of one of the top four forwards'.

The best two are signed long(ish) term, and the other two have full NMCs which they are apparently unwilling to waive, but which end next year.

The only response I get to asking how either could be traded was that Tre might have traded Marner in his first month here (assuming he had Shanahan's permission).

 

[Sypher04]

I think that many of us are saying that no major changes were made is because no changes were made that will make a difference. They have changed coaches and staff already with no difference, changed GM’s , no difference, change all of the supporting players with no difference in result reshaped the goalies multiple times , no difference so pretty much they haven’t made any meaningful major changes.

I don’t really view the coaching staff as something we’ve tried yet. Under Babcock we maybe at best should have only been expected to win one of the three rounds we played. Our core players annd our team are much better now than they were then and the failure to advance under Keefe is a different thing altogether.

 

[Arzak]

Knies Matthews Marner
Nylander Domi Nylander
Robertson JT McMann
Holmberg Dewar Reaves
Trade Jarnkrok and Kampf for cap to help improve the 3rd pairing on D

Tanev Reilly
McCabe OEL
Beniot Lily

Woll
Stolarz
I wouldn’t mind seeing this opening night. I think our D has improved and we could have a pretty good top 6 if Domi plays like he did the 2nd half and Alex makes the team out of camp and has chemistry with Willy. Robertson could have a breakout year playing with Tavares, and JT also gets easier match ups playing down in the lineup

It's time for Marner to carry his line. We had Nylander playing with Domi in his contract year, but Mitch is forever glued to Matthews, now that JT slowed down.

Madness.

 

[Racer88]

I don’t really view the coaching staff as something we’ve tried yet. Under Babcock we maybe at best should have only been expected to win one of the three rounds we played. Our core players annd our team are much better now than they were then and the failure to advance under Keefe is a different thing altogether.

Are our core players really any better? Maybe Matthews and Willy but the other 2 not so much. Tavares has definitely gone downhill and Marner is roughly the same as he was.
Babcock was a dick but he was a decent coach and Keefe was inexperienced and soft on them and neither style got anything out of them during the playoffs

 

[Hellcat]

Even with Gio gone, they feel older. Not better or worse just older. Slower possibly.

 

[Nineteen67]

The talk about major changes was only this year.

I agree he might have been able to move Marner (likely only with Shanahan's ok) in that very brief window when he first arrived. He set his priority to signing the better two.

Dubas said it before he was fired.

By all accounts Shanahan wasn’t too receptive to moving any of the three last year and they put themselves is another poor situation. However, if it’s true that they were willing to move Nylander, why didn’t they? Seems like he’d garner a lot of interest.

For the Leafs sake, I hope the new GM makes the necessary roster moves and Treliving.

 

[Nineteen67]

He took over in June 2023.

He could not make the coaching move then. The timing was terrible. He did manage to re-sign Keefe to avoid a lame-duck year and then was able to fire him and avoid the financial and contractual commitment. That's something.

Tanev, OEL, Benoit and Hakanpaa (if he's a thing) were not here when he got here. You don't consider 4/7 to be an overhaul in just over a year? Tanev not an upgrade over Brodie? What? One was that top dman on a final four team and one was a healthy scratch on the Leafs.

Too little too late? What do you think could have or should have been done in 14 months? What specifically should he have done?

He could have fired Keefe during the season when Berube became available. By US Thanksgiving and certainly Christmas we knew the team was stale but they elected to waste the year. It would have been better to see what Berube could do last year and then adjust the roster accordingly.

 

[conFABulator]

He could have fired Keefe during the season when Berube became available. By US Thanksgiving and certainly Christmas we knew the team was stale but they elected to waste the year. It would have been better to see what Berube could do last year and then adjust the roster accordingly.

That's a lot of benefit of hindsight there, no?

We were a playoff team, ahead of Tampa and suffering through some of the worst goaltending we have ever seen around the time Berube became available.

Also, did we want to commit to Berube then? I feel like even in the off-season we were waiting to see if Cooper or Brind'Amour or Quenneville was going to become available.

In hindsight, maybe you can say every team that didn't win the cup should have changed coaches. To me, this timing did not seem like the time to make a move.

 

[Nineteen67]

That's a lot of benefit of hindsight there, no?

We were a playoff team, ahead of Tampa and suffering through some of the worst goaltending we have ever seen around the time Berube became available.

Also, did we want to commit to Berube then? I feel like even in the off-season we were waiting to see if Cooper or Brind'Amour or Quenneville was going to become available.

In hindsight, maybe you can say every team that didn't win the cup should have changed coaches. To me, this timing did not seem like the time to make a move.

Not hindsight at all. People were calling for Keefe to be fired during the season. There’s no coach that could have made that team a Cup contender, so don’t even bring that into the conversation.

Maybe they were waiting until the off season for a good coach to become available and when that didn’t happen they hired Berube.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Even with Gio gone, they feel older. Not better or worse just older. Slower possibly.

Thing is they aren't actually older

Robertson is probably in full time, Knies is in full time, Mcmann is in full time, Cowan and Minten have a shot to make the team, Mcmann aside that group is 25 or younger.


assuming he's healthy Woll is the full time starter, he's mid 20's.

They acquired Dewar last season he's mid 20's.

They replaced Gio with OEL he's 8 years younger.

They replaced Brodie which Tanev which is about the same.

Brodie for Tanev aside almost every move they made, made them younger

 

[conFABulator]

Not hindsight at all. People were calling for Keefe to be fired during the season. There’s no coach that could have made that team a Cup contender, so don’t even bring that into the conversation.

Maybe they were waiting until the off season for a good coach to become available and when that didn’t happen they hired Berube.

If no coach could have made that team a cup contender (as you said) what would have been the benefit of making an in-season coaching change then?

Also "people are calling for the coach to be fired" every year...even though he was one of the winningest coaches of all time (winning percentage) with a team that is not a cup contender (as you said).

If they hired Berube in January or February, they would have been committing to him beyond the end of the season, I think the smart move was to see who was available make the best choice and the commit...which is what they did.