Do you think Ovechkin's legacy will improve over time?

[wetcoast]

Hi, are you aware what "paraphrased" means?

"express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity."

I know exactly what it means the problem here is that you don't understand the problem with altering someone's quote in any freaking way.

But keep doubling down on a really telling sign of bad faith here.

Also not being a top 100 player in the NHL at age 39 isn't actually saying that he sucks that's not paraphrasing so it's obvious that you need to figure out what that actually means.

Here is a definition and nowhere does paraphrasing say inject your own opinion to say something completely different.

express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I know exactly what it means the problem here is that you don't understand the problem with altering someone's quote in any freaking way.

But keep doubling down on a really telling sign of bad faith here.

Also not being a top 100 player in the NHL at age 39 isn't actually saying that he sucks that's not paraphrasing so it's obvious that you need to figure out what that actually means.

Here is a definition and nowhere does paraphrasing say inject your own opinion to say something completely different.

You're getting worked up when it's plain as day that I wasn't expressing those to be your words.

 

[Hanji]

I guess you didn't watch last season and sure he is off to a good start but my bet is that by the time that goal is scored no he wouldn't be a top 100 player for any all in redraft.

Ask yourself this, was Ovi based on last season a top 100 player going into this season?

Moving goalposts. You initially said this:

"if you had an in season draft throw everyone in the pool redraft all 32 teams for just the rest of the year would Ovi be picked in the top 100 for the rest of the year?"

Ovechkin is currently, without question, a top 100 NHLer.

Your entire argument is predicated on 1 sub-par year. That it. He was 5th in goals in the 2 seasons leading up to last year, and he's back on track now. This is not only evident in stats, but in how engaged he is on the ice. He looks nothing like last year.
Let's hope his leg injury isn't too bad.


BTW, aren't you the poster who called him 'cooked' ad nauseam in the Ovechkin milestone thread? How's that turning out for you?

 

[wetcoast]

Moving goalposts. You initially said this:

"if you had an in season draft throw everyone in the pool redraft all 32 teams for just the rest of the year would Ovi be picked in the top 100 for the rest of the year?"

Ovechkin is currently, without question, a top 100 NHLer.

Your entire argument is predicated on 1 sub-par year. That it. He was 5th in goals in the 2 seasons leading up to last year, and he's back on track now. This is not only evident in stats, but in how engaged he is on the ice. He looks nothing like last year.
Let's hope his leg injury isn't too bad.


BTW, aren't you the poster who called him 'cooked' ad nauseam in the Ovechkin milestone thread? How's that turning out for you?

Sure let's all pretend that last years playoffs didn't happen or the last couple of seasons, sure he has been better this year and it's against the trend but just like his alst hot start was against the trend and some, perhaps yourself, all were claiming Hart trophy ect then he regressed to the norm.

Of course the leg injury will now be the excuse and people will overlook the small sample PDO of 110.5 as we have seen this movie before.

Also nobody was seriously taking him as a top 100 player in an all in redraft for one season only contracts not included, just do the exercice from each team.

But of course a small group will look at points and nothing else I guess but he was tied for 72nd in points last season maybe they aren't 30ish Dmen and goalies one would take over him....I think not.

 

[Hanji]

Sure let's all pretend that last years playoffs didn't happen or the last couple of seasons, sure he has been better this year and it's against the trend but just like his alst hot start was against the trend and some, perhaps yourself, all were claiming Hart trophy ect then he regressed to the norm.

Of course the leg injury will now be the excuse and people will overlook the small sample PDO of 110.5 as we have seen this movie before.

Also nobody was seriously taking him as a top 100 player in an all in redraft for one season only contracts not included, just do the exercice from each team.

But of course a small group will look at points and nothing else I guess but he was tied for 72nd in points last season maybe they aren't 30ish Dmen and goalies one would take over him....I think not.

Last year.. last year.. last year..

Stop proving my point. All you have is 1 outlier season. That's it. You're argument falls apart when we analyze the totality of Ovechkin's play the past few seasons.



And small group? Go make a poll. See if majority of people consider him a current top 100 player. I mean you specifically said he wouldn't be taken in the top100 in a in-season redraft for the end of the year.
Seriously, do it. Go prove your point.

 

[wetcoast]

Last year.. last year.. last year..

Stop proving my point. All you have is 1 outlier season. That's it. You're argument falls apart when we analyze the totality of Ovechkin's play the past few seasons.

The 2 outliers have been the start to this season and the start of the 20-21 season outside of around 60 games he has been aging pretty much since the 19-20 season as an overall player.

sure the goals still come as do the points in a lesser degree but that's more about premium usage and a late career "defensive awareness" that makes him a higher option in ENG situations than earlier in his career go figure.

And small group? Go make a poll. See if majority of people consider him a current top 100 player. I mean you specifically said he wouldn't be taken in the top100 in a in-season redraft for the end of the year.
Seriously, do it. Go prove your point.

It's kind of too late to make a poll going into this season and one at this point would be fantasy based by points and the small sample size of this season with that 110.5 PDO and if I do the poll I can already slot in the usual fanboi spots voting yes without reading the question.

 

[Hanji]

The 2 outliers have been the start to this season and the start of the 20-21 season outside of around 60 games he has been aging pretty much since the 19-20 season as an overall player.

sure the goals still come as do the points in a lesser degree but that's more about premium usage and a late career "defensive awareness" that makes him a higher option in ENG situations than earlier in his career go figure.



It's kind of too late to make a poll going into this season and one at this point would be fantasy based by points and the small sample size of this season with that 110.5 PDO and if I do the poll I can already slot in the usual fanboi spots voting yes without reading the question.

Why is it too late? You specifically said an in-season re-draft. We're in-season right now.

 

[wetcoast]

Why is it too late? You specifically said an in-season re-draft. We're in-season right now.

Yes I did at the point where he scores goal 895.
Here is the orginal quote.

This doesn't make any sense as some have pointed out as it's not like that Ovi will even be a top 100 player in the league on the day or season he reaches 895 goals.

Then after 3 guys obviously didn't even read the context I posted this

Let me put this another way if you had an in season draft throw everyone in the pool redraft all 32 teams for just the rest of the year would Ovi be picked in the top 100 for the rest of the year?

Right off the bat you are going to get guys saying well he has 15 goals (and not even bothering to looking at his overall game or the 100.5 PDO) so of course he is...without even understanding that the question is for going forward.

Also like I said upthread going into this season he was 72nd in scoring last year and there were at least 50 players who scored less points that would be considered "better" than him going into this season for the season.

I wouldn't have had him as a top 100 choice where would he have ranked according to you ballparkish going into this season?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Just glancing at this, are people suggesting that Ovechkin has been playing great all this time and only last season was the lone exception in the last five years?

 

[Hanji]

Yes I did at the point where he scores goal 895.
Here is the orginal quote.



Then after 3 guys obviously didn't even read the context I posted this



Right off the bat you are going to get guys saying well he has 15 goals (and not even bothering to looking at his overall game or the 100.5 PDO) so of course he is...without even understanding that the question is for going forward.

Also like I said upthread going into this season he was 72nd in scoring last year and there were at least 50 players who scored less points that would be considered "better" than him going into this season for the season.

I wouldn't have had him as a top 100 choice where would he have ranked according to you ballparkish going into this season?

Cmon. You're only saying its too late for a poll because Ovechkin is playing well.

Your entire argument is based on last year, where he looked like dogcrap. However you were certain this was the new norm moving forward. It isn't. And now you're forced to double-down and look silly.

Is Ovechkin currently a top 100 NHLer?

 

[ImporterExporter]

His legacy is secure.

As someone who's picked apart his career (kind of have to as a Pittsburgh guy hehe), he's a legend of the highest order.

I've got a decent knowledge of hockey history and 2 things stand out about Ovechkin on an all time scale dating back to the origin era.

One, is the goal scoring of course, though I/we should marvel at the consistency at which he produced. I'm comfortable saying he's the greatest goal scorer ever. I don't think it's a landslide but his consistent dominance eventually won me over.

Two, and this is truly his most magnificent achievement, considering the style of game he played, is how damn durable he's been. (knee injury last night aside, he'll be back at some point this year and the record will fall, even if it's early next season). He just never missed time, relative to how long he's played. And he sure as hell wasn't a perimeter floater like Phil Kessel.

I feel fortunate to have witnessed 2 players who have legit arguments as top 5-10 players ever (Crosby/Ovi, with McD rolling up fast) as an adult. I remember Mario's post cancer career well enough but was too young to appreciate his peak.

Ovi is a top 10 guy all time. He's pushed Hull out of that group, IMHO.

 

[The Panther]

Points per game
Hull: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 7, 9
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 5, 5, 8, 9, 9
Goals per game
Hull: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9

Just looking at very high-end 'best' finishes (i.e., ignoring historical context, etc.), Hull actually is slightly better than Ovechkin, since they match up in seasons as #1 in goals per game (8 each), and Hull is slightly better in points per game.

It's of course in longevity of high-end seasons that Ovechkin pulls ahead, as he has (outside of #1 GPG years) eight more high-end seasonal finishes to Hull's five. However, Ovechkin has played four (and counting) more full NHL seasons than Hull in his career, so that might slighly lower Ovechkin's edge (i.e., if we look at each player's first 15 seasons).

I don't think either guy has a better argument in NHL playoffs, do they? Seems very comparable. Both guys won one Cup, with several team disappointments along the way. Maybe Ovechkin has the edge because he was his team's top guy when he won the Cup, whereas Hull (arguably) wasn't even at his prime yet.

Overall, I give Ovechkin a slight edge over Hull for a few reasons:
i) As primes are about even, Ovechkin then has more elite seasons in the NHL than Hull (this might not be Hull's "fault" so to speak, as he left the NHL to make money that is still small potatoes compared to Ovi's salary, but nevertheless he left).
ii) Ovechkin has more raw #1 goals finishes than Hull.
iii) Ovechkin carried the offensive load for his team more (Hull could lean more on Mikita, a four-time scoring champion and League MVP)
iii) Hull's team was more disappointing, which suggests he moved the needle a bit less.

But I wouldn't argue too much with anyone preferring Hull. Hull and Ovechkin are like different-era versions of each other, just like Beliveau and Crosby are. (McDavid is like Orr if he were a forward.)

 

[filinski77]

Points per game
Hull: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 7, 9
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 5, 5, 8, 9, 9
Goals per game
Hull: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9

Just looking at very high-end 'best' finishes (i.e., ignoring historical context, etc.), Hull actually is slightly better than Ovechkin, since they match up in seasons as #1 in goals per game (8 each), and Hull is slightly better in points per game.

It's of course in longevity of high-end seasons that Ovechkin pulls ahead, as he has (outside of #1 GPG years) eight more high-end seasonal finishes to Hull's five. However, Ovechkin has played four (and counting) more full NHL seasons than Hull in his career, so that might slighly lower Ovechkin's edge (i.e., if we look at each player's first 15 seasons).

I don't think either guy has a better argument in NHL playoffs, do they? Seems very comparable. Both guys won one Cup, with several team disappointments along the way. Maybe Ovechkin has the edge because he was his team's top guy when he won the Cup, whereas Hull (arguably) wasn't even at his prime yet.

Overall, I give Ovechkin a slight edge over Hull for a few reasons:
i) As primes are about even, Ovechkin then has more elite seasons in the NHL than Hull (this might not be Hull's "fault" so to speak, as he left the NHL to make money that is still small potatoes compared to Ovi's salary, but nevertheless he left).
ii) Ovechkin has more raw #1 goals finishes than Hull.
iii) Ovechkin carried the offensive load for his team more (Hull could lean more on Mikita, a four-time scoring champion and League MVP)
iii) Hull's team was more disappointing, which suggests he moved the needle a bit less.

But I wouldn't argue too much with anyone preferring Hull. Hull and Ovechkin are like different-era versions of each other, just like Beliveau and Crosby are. (McDavid is like Orr if he were a forward.)

Agree with a lot - and then I would add the context of how it is statistically harder to have the dominance (points and goals) that Ovi has had in a larger and more nationalized league.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Agree with a lot - and then I would add the context of how it is statistically harder to have the dominance (points and goals) that Ovi has had in a larger and more nationalized league.

It really isnt that much harder. All a larger/international league does really is boost the middle of the pack, not the elite level

 

[filinski77]

Just glancing at this, are people suggesting that Ovechkin has been playing great all this time and only last season was the lone exception in the last five years?

Yes

You have to remember that Ovechkin is also one of the oldest players in the league, and 2 years older than Crosby.
-> 39 y/o = top-5 offensive player so far this season
-> 38 y/o = yes terrible first half, but a top-60 offensive player (which at 38 is insane)
-> 37 y/o - top-15 to top-20 offensive player. Still a top goal scorer
-> 36 y/o = top-10 offensive player
-> 35 y/o = top-15 offensive player
-> 34 y/o = top-10 offensive player
-> 33 y/o = top-10 offensive player

And before anyone screams that he's one-dimensional, doesn't Crosby have some of the worst advanced defensive stats in the league over the last few years?

In-fact, when you break them down age to age (which I think is more fair since as they both get old, 36 y/o vs 34 y/o isn't a fair comparison due to the significant downward aging curve). Head-to-head at ages, Ovi has either been equal to or better than Crosby in pretty much every single aged season. And nobody would have the audacity to say Crosby hasn't been a good hockey player.

Ovechkin				Crosby
Age	Points Rank	Goals rank	.	Age	Points Rank	Goals rank
39 - early on	11th	1st	.
38​	72nd	36th	.
37​	40th (32nd/gp)	9th (9th /gp)	.	37 - early on	26th	49th
36​	16th	4th	.	36​	12th	11th
35​	64th (27th /gp)	13th (8th/gp)	.	35​	16th	41st
34​	18th	1st	.	34​	24th (17th /gp)	40th (40th/gp)
33​	15th	1st	.	33​	10th	13th

It really isnt that much harder. All a larger/international league does really is boost the middle of the pack, not the elite level

Disagree. You have way more players that will have peaks and primes and one-off seasons that make it harder to have a top-10 or top-1 finish.

Look at even the last few years, even if McDavid is the best player in the world, he has guys like Matthews, Kuch, Mackinnon, Draisaitl who can pop off for a Ross or Hart on any given year.

With 10 teams, there's only 30 top-line and top-PP spots for players to compete for top-10 goal and point finishes. With 30 teams there are now 90 players that can compete. Barring a complete anomaly, if you are not top-line or top-PP, you have 0 shot at finishing top-10 in points/goals.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It really isnt that much harder. All a larger/international league does really is boost the middle of the pack, not the elite level

It absolutely is harder. More players getting 1st line opportunity gives much more chances for someone to 'pop' off. The top 10/15/20 scoring lists are much less year to year consistent accordingly.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes

Read the post. It's so far beyond.......uhhh...I don't even know how to say it. Your starting point and evaluation process - whatever that may be - is just not reconcilable for me. It's not a good use of time for either of us to continue haha

 

[filinski77]

Read the post. It's so far beyond.......uhhh...I don't even know how to say it. Your starting point and evaluation process - whatever that may be - is just not reconcilable for me. It's not a good use of time for either of us to continue haha

Sucks to have actual stats to back up opinions eh. Literally showed that Ovechkin has been good and that YES - last year was an exception to it all.

 

[Randyne]

There is a significant concrete gap between Crosby and Ovechkin.

The concrete gap name is Malkin, who factored in 375 points to Sid's points total.
w/o Malkin, Sid<Ovechkin
Sid has hype and help from generational talent, who also was a magnet to Sid's minuses.
Ovechkin has real legacy. He didn't rest and played through injuries, didn't escape from minuses, collected the biggest hardware since Wayne and Mario. If NHL didn't ban him during his peak, that hardware would be bigger than Mario (22 vs 19).
That's the reality, not media, which never taking Malkin into account (even kicked him out of top 100).

 

[Plural]

A lot of people claimed he wasn't the GOAT but he was totally in the conversation the whole time.

It's unfortunate though if there wasn't a salary cap and no draft McDavid would never be in this predicament.

A lot of people were saying he doesn't belong in the conversation. Now we can discuss how reasonable that is, but it's not like it was a fringe opinion. He was outright dismissed by a lot of people because of World Cup (which is ridiculously unfair considering how hard a trophy it is to win).

 

[The Panther]

Agree with a lot - and then I would add the context of how it is statistically harder to have the dominance (points and goals) that Ovi has had in a larger and more nationalized league.

Yes and no. While more talented players in volume means more chance of a surprising player catching fire each season and rushing up the scoring race (as often happens), the best players competing for scoring titles are still the best players regardless of League-size.

In the pre-1967 days, games were probably more like playoff series are now. Everybody knew each other intimately, and there were no surprises. That's probably why scoring was low, then.

But I do think there's probably more year-by-year variance in scoring leaders post-1979 than pre-1967, so I don't hold it against Ovechkin (or whomever) if their scoring finish dips a few points here and there. Anyway, we can just look at modern players in three or five season spans to get a clearer idea.

 

[MadLuke]

It's unfortunate though if there wasn't a salary cap and no draft McDavid would never be in this predicament.

Not sure how much salary cap help or hurt, specially if there is a draft and a maximum salary for the player....

Connor McDavid has only the third biggest cap hit in the league and having Huberdeau instead is only a 2 millions rebate, less for Marner.

Imagine Gretzky in that situation and how big of an advantage his team would have over all the other team, say Gretzky would have been worth 22 millions a year and no one else over the limit, they start with a 10 millions advantage of cap over the competition.

Lebron James was in a cap league, is salary cut almost in half by a maximum rules, was in the final every year, but it is a more flexible luxury tax system.

 

[Overrated]

Not sure how much salary cap help or hurt, specially if there is a draft and a maximum salary for the player....

Connor McDavid has only the third biggest cap hit in the league and having Huberdeau instead is only a 2 millions rebate, less for Marner.

Imagine Gretzky in that situation and how big of an advantage his team would have over all the other team, say Gretzky would have been worth 22 millions a year and no one else over the limit, they start with a 10 millions advantage of cap over the competition.

Lebron James was in a cap league, is salary cut almost in half by a maximum rules, was in the final every year, but it is a more flexible luxury tax system.

My point is that without the draft and a cap there would be several super teams in the league and Connor would certainly be on one of them. Then you could make the case it's his fault he isn't winning any cups. Now that you're assigned to a team you can lose every year and it can easily never be your fault.

 

[Reindl87]

The problem with him is that since they won the NHL Cup (that`s pushing ten years) there is this perception that the only purpose of his career is to break that record. His entire, or even the team`s effort go in that direction. Everything else is a foot note at best.
His records doesn`t happen in a "natural way" at least that`s what it feel like. People don`t like that type of cheryy picking record chasing.
Nobody has ever felt that Gretzky kept on playing in the 90s to chase records, it was just a byproduct of his play.
That``s wey I don`t think that Ovechkin`s legacy will grow. Hos greatness is based on his sensational, outstanding play from 05-10- Not on his stat chasing in the last 10 years of his career. And people always remeber first what happened last.

 

[Overrated]

A lot of people were saying he doesn't belong in the conversation. Now we can discuss how reasonable that is, but it's not like it was a fringe opinion. He was outright dismissed by a lot of people because of World Cup (which is ridiculously unfair considering how hard a trophy it is to win).

Well there might have been a few people dismissing him all together but he made the vast majority of people's at least top3 ever even before the WC. I argued for him being the GOAT of all team sports here on hfboards even before he won the cup.