Do you like this team?

[Racer88]

I don’t like the way they are structured. I just can’t see all the money dumped on 4 forwards as a recipe for success. I hope I am wrong but if the Leafs crap out in the first round yet again I would expect big changes will be made. At the very least Dubas and the coaching staff should be gone.
We only have a finite window with Marner and Matthews and can only afford to waste so much of it on Dubas and Keefe, 2 management with very little NHL experience

 

[zeke]

We only have a finite window with Marner and Matthews

False.

and can only afford to waste so much of it on Dubas and Keefe, 2 management with very little NHL experience

With both Dubas and Keefe in charge:

91gms

#5 wins/points perfentage
#4 regulation wins percentage

#5 goals for percentage
#3 expected goals for percentage

#3 goals for per game
#3 expected goals for per game

#13 goals against per game
#8 expected goals against per game

#19 save percentage

 

[SnizzMitch]

People who wants Dubas fired are either masochist or just have a really short memory. The guy has been the best gm we’ve had in the past 30 years, maybe ever. Firing him would set the franchise years back.

 

[BlueForever75]

I would like to see the entire team together for a longer stretch to answer this question. A team that has both Matthews and Nylander in the lineup along with newly acquired Foligno and Andersen between the pipes. Then all of us can answer the question.

Right now it is premature. One thing is for certain, the depth we have at forward and our defense looks a hell of alot better then past teams.

 

[Morbo]

the team in terms of the skaters is very good. perhaps a little light on skill now at LW and D, but sacrifices had to be made. they're up there with anybody with everyone in the lineup, this bizarre powerplay slump aside.

the achilles heel is goaltending though. my fear is we get what happened last night in the playoffs(again).

 

[Dekes For Days]

We are not quite good defensive, we are not even good defensivly at best we are average.

We are actually a very good defensive team. One of the best in the league.

 

[Gallagbi]

the team in terms of the skaters is very good. perhaps a little light on skill now at LW and D, but sacrifices had to be made. they're up there with anybody with everyone in the lineup, this bizarre powerplay slump aside.

the achilles heel is goaltending though. my fear is we get what happened last night in the playoffs(again).

You're not alone.

I'm very interested to see how quick we are to switch goalies come this playoffs. We have 3 unproven goalies, I'm hoping we ride the hot hand as much as possible and don't get married to any of the 3. They are all risky.

 

[Wiseguys]

I'll hold my opinion until the end of next week. The Leafs will have a complete lineup. They will be playing Winnipeg three times their closes competition. That should be a more realistic determination.

 

[Bluelines]

We are actually a very good defensive team. One of the best in the league.

Maybe watch a game with someone who understands it, like me for example. We have FAR too many defensive breakdowns, far to many high risk low reward plays that result in high danger chance against. Teams that possess the puck a lot will generally have defensive stats that look good, that does not make them a good defensive team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Maybe watch a game with someone who understands it, like me for example. We have FAR too many defensive breakdowns, far to many high risk low reward plays that result in high danger chance against. Teams that possess the puck a lot will generally have defensive stats that look good, that does not make them a good defensive team.

I watch every game, and understand it better than you, thanks. I also watch other teams, and understand how much everybody else does the same things you're complaining about for us. We're 10th in the league in high danger chances against, so even in that, you're wrong. If teams limit the quantity and quality of shots and chances against, then yes, they are good defensively. That's the whole point. You're wildly overreacting to a mini-slump.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Way too early. The playoffs will tell us everything.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe watch a game with someone who understands it, like me for example. We have FAR too many defensive breakdowns, far to many high risk low reward plays that result in high danger chance against. Teams that possess the puck a lot will generally have defensive stats that look good, that does not make them a good defensive team.

The Leafs are about an average defensive team but I think people will overrate them due to being better than last year and having some high profile success during the season.

And from a possession POV it can be a double edged sword because as the Leafs are prone to holding the puck and regrouping it puts them in vulnerable areas to turn the puck over as opposed to a “pucks in deep” team.

 

[The Apologist]

Yes

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Leafs are about an average defensive team but I think people will overrate them due to being better than last year and having some high profile success during the season.

3rd best in the league, currently. 7th, if just looking at 5v5. Much better than "average"; people are in fact underrating them because of their past, and their personal pre-conceived ideas about style of play.

 

[The Podium]

Maybe watch a game with someone who understands it, like me for example. We have FAR too many defensive breakdowns, far to many high risk low reward plays that result in high danger chance against. Teams that possess the puck a lot will generally have defensive stats that look good, that does not make them a good defensive team.

Not defending Dekes For Days here, but why are you so confident that you understand the game better than him/her?

The Leafs dont really have a ton of defensive breakdowns or high danger chances against. If you watch around the league you'd come to realize that. As for possession not making a team a good defensive team? Well thats just wrong. Possession is a form of defence, maybe not in the traditional trap/dump and chase/Brodeur in the corner defence, but if you are maintaining possession you are limiting opposition possession and therefore limiting opposition chances against.

 

[Stephen]

3rd best in the league, currently. 7th, if just looking at 5v5. Much better than "average"; people are in fact underrating them because of their past, and their personal pre-conceived ideas about style of play.

Ultimately, the strength of their defensive game will be determined solely by playoff success. Our opinions, biases, eye test and selectively presented statistical evidence doesn’t matter.

 

[Stephen]

Not defending Dekes For Days here, but why are you so confident that you understand the game better than him/her?

The Leafs dont really have a ton of defensive breakdowns or high danger chances against. If you watch around the league you'd come to realize that. As for possession not making a team a good defensive team? Well thats just wrong. Possession is a form of defence, maybe not in the traditional trap/dump and chase/Brodeur in the corner defence, but if you are maintaining possession you are limiting opposition possession and therefore limiting opposition chances against.

On the face of it puck possession sounds like a genius idea but in the end is merely a tactic that can be used well or used poorly in real time - or exploited.

The thing is the Leafs like holding the puck and regrouping so they don’t have to engage in lower percentage puck retrieval plays later but it does mean that they are holding the puck in retreat and in areas of the ice where they are susceptible to a counter attack at speed. The Ehlers and Formenton short handed goals are a very clear example of how the Leafs point men can be exploited because they are trying to make an extra play as opposed to “getting pucks in deep.”

Elsewhere, when guys like Holl and Muzzin and Rielly go to pinch at the blueline they are creating puck battles that can result in two on one plays against as opposed to simply conceding the zone exit and being able to defend deeper in the neutral zone.

Earlier in the season Engvall would retreat and back pedal with the puck under pressure but give it up on a heavy forecheck. Compare and contrast again with simply chipping it in and allowing for a line change or forecheck or whatever is happening in that moment.

Whatever the Leafs are doing someone is trying to disrupt them and exploit them. So the key is always always situational awareness and execution. “Puck possession” by itself doesn’t tell you that much.

 

[The Podium]

On the face of it puck possession sounds like a genius idea but in the end is merely a tactic that can be used well or used poorly in real time - or exploited.

The thing is the Leafs like holding the puck and regrouping so they don’t have to engage in lower percentage puck retrieval plays later but it does mean that they are holding the puck in retreat and in areas of the ice where they are susceptible to a counter attack at speed. The Ehlers and Formenton short handed goals are a very clear example of how the Leafs point men can be exploited because they are trying to make an extra play as opposed to “getting pucks in deep.”

Elsewhere, when guys like Holl and Muzzin and Rielly go to pinch at the blueline they are creating puck battles that can result in two on one plays against as opposed to simply conceding the zone exit and being able to defend deeper in the neutral zone.

Earlier in the season Engvall would retreat and back pedal with the puck under pressure but give it up on a heavy forecheck. Compare and contrast again with simply chipping it in and allowing for a line change or forecheck or whatever is happening in that moment.

Whatever the Leafs are doing someone is trying to disrupt them and exploit them. So the key is always always situational awareness and execution. “Puck possession” by itself doesn’t tell you that much.

No but in combination with relatively low high danger chances against, these defensive breakdowns arent happening that frequently.

 

[Stephen]

Put another way. The Leafs PP seems to be struggling a lot and you wonder why with their abundance of skills and puck possession and Rocket leading scorer. As a fan watching I can see a clear path to success vs Toronto because they don’t move the puck quickly and don’t have a lot of high end shooting variety on the PP1 unit. That means I can simply cut off the passing from Marner and Rielly to Matthews and then just take away the space and time or Marner and Rielly and attack with speed when the opportunity presents itself.

Because the Leafs prefer to enter a zone with the puck as opposed to chasing after it, we can stand up at the blueline or stagger in the neutral zone and create a heavy traffic jam, basically a red rover game. By the time they do enter you can swarm the puck carrier.

 

[Stephen]

No but in combination with relatively low high danger chances against, these defensive breakdowns arent happening that frequently.

We have given up a number of two on ones this week alone to coincide with a three game winless streak.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Yeah once this team is back at full strength they will be a tough out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ultimately, the strength of their defensive game will be determined solely by playoff success. Our opinions, biases, eye test and selectively presented statistical evidence doesn’t matter.

No, defensive ability is not determined by playoff wins and losses. While biased opinions may not matter, the facts do. There's nothing "selectively presented" about every defensive statistic in existence.

 

[Mats13]

I don’t like the way they are structured. I just can’t see all the money dumped on 4 forwards as a recipe for success. I hope I am wrong but if the Leafs crap out in the first round yet again I would expect big changes will be made. At the very least Dubas and the coaching staff should be gone.
We only have a finite window with Marner and Matthews and can only afford to waste so much of it on Dubas and Keefe, 2 management with very little NHL experience

So much wrong with this post. Looks like it was written by Babcock.

The weirdest thing is saying we have a finite window with Matthews and Marner. No player can play forever. Even Gretzky had a finite window to win cups. What point are you trying to make?

 

[Joey Hoser]

3rd best in the league, currently. 7th, if just looking at 5v5. Much better than "average"; people are in fact underrating them because of their past, and their personal pre-conceived ideas about style of play.

Some people just want to believe they're an old-school hockey person who knows what it really takes, and everyone else is a fool.

A good way to do that is to say vague things about defense and work ethic not being good enough. The only people who can argue with that are nerds with their spreadsheets, who are easily dismissed.

Facts don't matter. Just feelings and narrative.

 

[Stephen]

No, defensive ability is not determined by playoff wins and losses. While biased opinions may not matter, the facts do. There's nothing "selectively presented" about every defensive statistic in existence.

The whole exercise is to win a Stanley Cup championship in the next little while so the talking points are really just a debate about whether we feel they are fit to do so at various positions, what their work habits are like, the trajectory of their game, or when they struggle where they are falling short.

There is really no value in whether you think they’re defensively strong or if I think they’re just average. It’s really about results.