Do you believe in Dubas?

[ACC1224]

Though Shanahan has been best president we had during modern era. Not so bad for rookie. He made this organization credible in few years after Burkes regiment ran us down.

I'm sure most would like to be convinced you're right.
What is it that he's done? Team bottomed out, got a few high picks and is now spinning it's wheels.
I was excited when he was brought in but IMO, he's been disappointing.

 

[Stamkos4life]

we all want someone or something to blame. KD is the low hanging fruit.

not expecting to change anyone's mind on it, but since this is a forum of opinion, that's where I stand.

I'll gladly take another 5 years of Shanny/Kyle in charge. Despite the overwhelming belief on here, I really don't think they are as married to this core group as people suggest they are. As seen in the "All or Nothing" series, they are very aware of the demons these guys face in between the ears. And pairing that with their hiring of a "Peak Performance Coach" in Greg Harden, kind of further suggests they see the same elephant in the room that we do. It may prove to be too much in the end for Mitch and Auston. I am fairly confident they will make changes if this core group if they come up short once again. If they get that opportunity that is.

At the end of the day, their talent evaluation is better than any Management group before them in the Salary Cap era. I think long after KD is gone, only then will people on this board appreciate what he and Shanny have done for this club. It's obviously all speculative, but if you've followed our prospect pool for decades like I have, you would know it has never looked this promising. Despite the lack of high draft picks. That is how you sustain success. Continually stocking the pond with fresh fish. Sooner or later, we will get the right mix

Dubas is the gm. If we do well, he gets credit. If we fail, he gets the blame. This is how businesses work.

Re the bolded. Are you saying Kyle and Shanahan are the best duo in the whole league during the entire salary cap era? Or just for the Leafs?

Also our current prospect pool is like 15-20th ranked in the league. Under Lou lam our prospects pool was top 5. Are you sure you have been following the Leafs prospects for years? It may have been some other team based on the results at hand.

How many first round exits does Kyle get before you will accept that he needs to be fired? 2 more?

 

[colchar]

No. No. No. No.

The GM can only put together the best team they can. It's up to the players to make it work in the end. All I am saying is that this group of soft as f*** players needs to figure out if they are willing to do what it takes to win. So far the answer is a resounding no.

Clearly Spreadsheet hasn't put together the best team he can.

Changing the GM will not make this team a winner all of a sudden.

And nobody is saying that it will. What people are saying is that a new GM might right the ship, Dubas won't.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Too much is made of that, as if Ayres beat them himself.

He was their practice goalie so was used to seeing them. He wasn't intimidated by having those stars shoot on him because it happened damned near every day. And he only faced ten shots, which is down to Carolina playing effective defence.

Yes, it is embarrassing but a bit too much is made of it.

He was a 42 year old Zamboni driver. Our 11mil forwards do not intimidate a 42 year old zamboni driver. That's a potential issue. I cannot believe you've typed that.

 

[colchar]

There is no contradicting whatsoever. It is entirely fair to recognize the flaws in your group, and their historical production in key moments, all while understanding that there is potential for a 23 and 24 year old to continue to mature. Similar to Willy the offseason prior. I'm not saying people have to agree with that, but that was the choice that was made by this management group immediately after the season ended last year. You don't just run it back and then call it quits after 6 games. If you honestly think their plan for this year had a eject button in the first 1/10th of the season I am sorry to disappoint you, but that's not how any sports franchise operates. Certainly not any successful ones. When was the last time a 10 Million dollar player with term got dealt in season? even 8AAV? Like it or not, this is likely the club for the remainder of the year, with the exception of Mo. He could easily be dished with retention for his final year and we can begin a soft retool/rebuild at season's end. And once again, this is only if the team continues down this trajectory. There is also a very likely chance they get their shit together as well.

It is more than six games, ffs. A lot more. And yes, it was a major contradiction. Read the comments again.

 

[colchar]

He was a 42 year old Zamboni driver. Our 11mil forwards do not intimidate a 42 year old zambini. That's a potential issue. I cannot believe you've typed that.

And there it goes again. Yes, he drives a Zamboni but they didn't pluck a Zamboni driver who had never worn pads before and stick him in the net. They put in a guy who faced them every single day, and who then only faced ten shots.

I'm not saying the guy was Dryden, I am just saying that he wasn't just some random guy who drove a Zamboni as so many, yourself included, like to insinuate.

 

[wingman75]

Clearly Spreadsheet hasn't put together the best team he can.

And nobody is saying that it will. What people are saying is that a new GM might right the ship, Dubas won't.

There must be a balance between the analytics and what-you-see. I think Dubas is edging more and more to the middle... maybe even against his own wishes.

I'd rather let Dubas see this through with this core than change things up at this point. Hopefully he is willing to make a move in season if necessary (though I doubt it) If there is no success at seasons end, I agree, a change is required.

 

[All Mod Cons]

And there it goes again. Yes, he drives a Zamboni but they didn't pluck a Zamboni driver who had never worn pads before and stick him in the net. They put in a guy who faced them every single day, and who then only faced ten shots.

I'm not saying the guy was Dryden, I am just saying that he wasn't just some random guy who drove a Zamboni as so many, yourself included, like to insinuate.

He's a 42 year old zamboni driver. There's a potential issue that our 11mil forwards struggle against a 42 year old zamboni driver.
He's seen them shoot.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Bullet one- Loss to Columbus- Correction factor- Bring some character in.
Bullet two- Loss to Montreal- Character did nor work because two of our highest paid players refused to show up and the coach was a no show. Correction Factor- Stand pat,
Bullet three- See last two games. This coach cannot do anything with them. They got Babcock run out of town. It is SHAKE UP TIME.

This sooooooo much.

We got Matthews and Nylander for another couple of years.

DO IT NOWWWWWW

 

[Twine Tickler]

Gladly ?? You can't be serious. Shanny has been an embarrassment most times he has spoken since kid Kyle took over and the results on the ice speak for themselves IMO.

Embarrassment would be the following:

-Trading 2 first round picks (not lottery protected) for a player who refused to sign with his current club. When your team hadn't made the playoffs for god knows how long, and look like shit on paper. Only to finish second last in the standings the year immediately after. Essentially giving up Dougie Hamilton and Tyler Seguin

- Trading a top rated goalie prospect in Tukka Rask to Boston for a goalie with 1 NHL season under his belt. Only because you valued your other "top rated" prospect in Justin Pogge higher, who then went on to play a whopping 7 NHL games

-Trade Alex Steen for Coliacovo and Stempniak

-Draft Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Brad Ross, Kenny Ryan, Jesse Blacker, Matt Finn, and Jimmy Hayes in the top 50 picks of their NHL drafts between 2008-12 and combine for maybe 5 GP for the Leafs. If that

-Signing then 38 year old Patrick Marleau to a 3 year deal, knowing this would directly affect your team's ability to sign your 2 best players coming out of their entry level deals.

-Trading a 1st round pick for Vesa Toskila

-Giving full NTC to Aging vets Mats Sundin, Bryan McCabe, Tomas Kaberle, Darcy Tucker, and Pavel Kubina. Mats being the one that bit us the most.

I'm sure I am missing some.

There absolutely have been mistakes made by this current management group, but none of which would take years to fix. Unlike any of the previous regimes

 

[Aashir]

I’ll believe, even if it doesn’t look like it at the time, until he’s fired. If we have to win with Matthews leading our team with 55 points, then so be it. Just win goddamn it

 

[ToneDog]

Embarrassment would be the following:

-Trading 2 first round picks (not lottery protected) for a player who refused to sign with his current club. When your team hadn't made the playoffs for god knows how long, and look like shit on paper. Only to finish second last in the standings the year immediately after. Essentially giving up Dougie Hamilton and Tyler Seguin

- Trading a top rated goalie prospect in Tukka Rask to Boston for a goalie with 1 NHL season under his belt. Only because you valued your other "top rated" prospect in Justin Pogge higher, who then went on to play a whopping 7 NHL games

-Trade Alex Steen for Coliacovo and Stempniak

-Draft Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Brad Ross, Kenny Ryan, Jesse Blacker, Matt Finn, and Jimmy Hayes in the top 50 picks of their NHL drafts between 2008-12 and combine for maybe 5 GP for the Leafs. If that

-Signing then 38 year old Patrick Marleau to a 3 year deal, knowing this would directly affect your team's ability to sign your 2 best players coming out of their entry level deals.

-Trading a 1st round pick for Vesa Toskila

-Giving full NTC to Aging vets Mats Sundin, Bryan McCabe, Tomas Kaberle, Darcy Tucker, and Pavel Kubina. Mats being the one that bit us the most.

I'm sure I am missing some.

There absolutely have been mistakes made by this current management group, but none of which would take years to fix. Unlike any of the previous regimes

The list is much longer, however I was referring more to Shanny's pressers than his hockey moves.

 

[notbias]

He's a 42 year old zamboni driver. There's a potential issue that our 11mil forwards struggle against a 42 year old zamboni driver.
He's seen them shoot.

He had something like a .750% save percentage.. Carolina destroyed us that game, Ayers looked like a zamboni driver in that game, just the story is better if you ignore that.

Just checked.. he posted a .800, Scott Foster put up 1.00.

Funny how you hear nothing about an accountant blanking a team.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Dubas is the gm. If we do well, he gets credit. If we fail, he gets the blame. This is how businesses work.

Re the bolded. Are you saying Kyle and Shanahan are the best duo in the whole league during the entire salary cap era? Or just for the Leafs?

Also our current prospect pool is like 15-20th ranked in the league. Under Lou lam our prospects pool was top 5. Are you sure you have been following the Leafs prospects for years? It may have been some other team based on the results at hand.

How many first round exits does Kyle get before you will accept that he needs to be fired? 2 more?

-Are Shanny and Dubas the best in the league? I don't think I ever said that, but my answer to that is no. DO I think they are better than what is currently available on the open market? absolutely. Name a President/GM combo you'd prefer in place of them that is currently looking for a job. And remember we want "experience" right. Because these rookies clearly don't know what they are doing. Any of these "experienced" GM's you are referring too would only be available because they failed somewhere else.

-Under Lou, the Leafs had just selected in the top 10 of the NHL entry draft in 4 of the previous 5 years prior to taking over. Pretty f***ing hard not to be in the top 10 of any rankings.

-Lastly, I would accept a KD firing tmw. I am not stupid. I understand that he is likely on his way out if they fail once again. I just don't see how a change in GM is going to get Matthews or Marner to step up when it matters the most. Because I am fairly confident the next GM will not get rid of both. Maybe 1.

 

[Racer88]

He had something like a .750% save percentage.. Carolina destroyed us that game, Ayers looked like a zamboni driver in that game, just the story is better if you ignore that.

Just checked.. he posted a .800, Scott Foster put up 1.00.

Funny how you hear nothing about an accountant blanking a team.

He was a Zamboni driver playing against 3- 11 million dollar players and 1 -7 million dollar player……they should have beat him on every shot.
It was humiliating and sad for them

 

[DarkKnight]

I'm sure most would like to be convinced you're right.
What is it that he's done? Team bottomed out, got a few high picks and is now spinning it's wheels.
I was excited when he was brought in but IMO, he's been disappointing.

I think Shanny wanted to be progressive and modern thinking, which I actually can’t fault him for. What I do fault him for is not realizing the way he played the game never changes, he bought in to an unproven model and should have known better.

 

[notbias]

He was a Zamboni driver playing against 3- 11 million dollar players and 1 -7 million dollar player……they should have beat him on every shot.
It was humiliating and sad for them

Unrealistic expectation, beating him 20% of the time is fine, I remember the game, Carolina destroyed them, gave them nothing.

And why do you care about the salary of single players? Every team has the same cap, this line of thinking is hilariously dumb.

 

[myleafs]

I'm sure most would like to be convinced you're right.
What is it that he's done? Team bottomed out, got a few high picks and is now spinning it's wheels.
I was excited when he was brought in but IMO, he's been disappointing.

I was really hoping Shanny would mould this team from gm down into the kind of player he was kinda like Neely but for some weird reason he almost seems ashamed of the way he played and how fans viewed his game.

 

[Mopar]

No, I do not believe in Kyle Dubas. I was skeptical when he was hires to replace Lou. I (and many others) turned out to be right. We've seen this movie before. A GM with no NHL experience has no business running the Toronto Maple Leafs.

There was a lot for Leaf fans to be optimistic about at the time leading up to his hiring. A front office comprised of proven hockey people (that have won multiple championships). A young core of forwards acquired through the draft and developed properly. One of the most respected coaches in the game. A 1st Overall draft pick and bona fide superstar to build around. We went from 30th overall in the league to making the playoffs in one season! Then set a franchise record for points the following year.

Then we hand it all over to a GM with zero NHL experience. It's been all downhill from there. The team has gotten worse every year since Dubas took over. On paper and on the ice. We were on the cusp of being perennial contenders for the Stanley Cup for YEARS! Instead we have a regressing team with 0 playoff wins, 0 cap space, overpaid and underperforming players, a rookie coach that gets out-coached on a regular basis and some of the most embarrassing losses on record. Topped obviously by the David Ayres debacle and then blowing a 3-1 series lead to our arch rivals and a team that wouldn't even have qualified for the playoffs in a normal season. It's so bad looking back at now that you don't know whether to laugh or cry!

For the record I was a fan of the Tavares signing. I felt that it was a good move to put this team over the top and give us a really good 1-2 punch at center ice and make us a serious threat going forward. Dubas has made some decent trades as well and I respected his moves at last year's trade deadline to make a push for a playoff run. But overall I don't believe in him.

This is the Toronto Maple Leafs! We're on a 55 year Stanley Cup drought! We're supposed to be the center of the hockey universe! A mecca! Is it too much to ask that we hire the very best people available and demand some results for the city and the fans? We can't keep making tactical errors like hiring rookie GMs and letting those rookie GMs hire rookie coaches. MLSE, wake the f*** up!

 

[TheGoldenJet]

weird he got a GM job in the NHL and you got 7 likes on a HFBoard post.

you should do what the analogy would be for you in this situation. Are you the broke loser watching the table telling all your friends who can’t stand you that you would of won every hand and here’s how?

In the analogy, I guess I’d be the broke loser watching the incompetent blackjack player get taken to the cleaners at the table beside me, and posting/tweeting about it on my phone.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think Shanny wanted to be progressive and modern thinking, which I actually can’t fault him for. What I do fault him for is not realizing the way he played the game never changes, he bought in to an unproven model and should have known better.

Shanny seemed almost embarrassed by the type of player he was. He seemed to fall in love with the Russian 5 model that Detroit had when he was there thinking it was the end all be all of hockey. The problem is Detroit didn't start winning until HE showed up with his gritty play. He seemed to have forgotten that part...where Detroit was a laughing stock constantly under performing and losing in the playoffs. He thought he was an enlightened being after being the head of player safety and eschewed physical play in general. He thought that Johnsson was tough because he took punishment and didn't retaliate. Yup...he thought taking a shot to the kisser and smiling was tough.

 

[DarkKnight]

Shanny seemed almost embarrassed by the type of player he was. He seemed to fall in love with the Russian 5 model that Detroit had when he was there thinking it was the end all be all of hockey. The problem is Detroit didn't start winning until HE showed up with his gritty play. He seemed to have forgotten that part...where Detroit was a laughing stock constantly under performing and losing in the playoffs. He thought he was an enlightened being after being the head of player safety and eschewed physical play in general. He thought that Johnsson was tough because he took punishment and didn't retaliate. Yup...he thought taking a shot to the kisser and smiling was tough.

He was a great player to watch, his team here is the polar opposite.

 

[Stamkos4life]

-Are Shanny and Dubas the best in the league? I don't think I ever said that, but my answer to that is no. DO I think they are better than what is currently available on the open market? absolutely. Name a President/GM combo you'd prefer in place of them that is currently looking for a job. And remember we want "experience" right. Because these rookies clearly don't know what they are doing. Any of these "experienced" GM's you are referring too would only be available because they failed somewhere else.

-Under Lou, the Leafs had just selected in the top 10 of the NHL entry draft in 4 of the previous 5 years prior to taking over. Pretty f***ing hard not to be in the top 10 of any rankings.

-Lastly, I would accept a KD firing tmw. I am not stupid. I understand that he is likely on his way out if they fail once again. I just don't see how a change in GM is going to get Matthews or Marner to step up when it matters the most. Because I am fairly confident the next GM will not get rid of both. Maybe 1.

You said:

"At the end of the day, their talent evaluation is better than any Management group before them in the Salary Cap era."

You didn't specify that you were talking about just the Leafs so I had to clarify. There are some dubas fan boys who think he is the best gm in the league. Crazy, I know.

What is so special about dubas and Shanahan by the way?

Shanahan has been here for 7 years and we still don't have a series win.

Dubas inherited a 105 point team with loads of potential and cap space yet after 3 years we are still hoping for a single playoff series win.

The bar has not been set very high.

I'd honestly take most gms around the league, employed or not, over Kyle. I doubt most would achieve so little with so much.

Every single gm would kill to have the opportunity dubas was given.

Obviously picking high will make a strong prospect pool. But youre the one who said:

"It's obviously all speculative, but if you've followed our prospect pool for decades like I have, you would know it has never looked this promising."

So we're you lying when you said this is the most promising prospect pool we have ever had? Or did you forget about our prospect pool under Lou, until I mentioned it?

Dubas is the one who overpaid matthess and marner. When you have 50% of your cap tied up in just 4 forwards, all it takes is for two of them to not play well / be injured and now you are playing with out 25% of your cap. That is such a handy cap in a salary cap world.

Dubas caused this mess. Just because another gm might not be able to get matthews and marner to work harder is not a reason to keep a failure of a gm.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

He signed Marner to a contract he’ll never live up to.

He should have been bridged

 

[Amadeus]

I think he tries. No one else better than him out there either so we should let him roll with it.