Do you believe in Dubas?

[PromisedLand]

Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos/Toews/Kane

and... how many cup(s)/playoff success did these players have?

 

[ACC1224]

I’m curious as to why you would call a 105 point team a 100 point team just because they won some games in a shootout. A shootout is part of the game just like overtime is part of the game.
Let’s say the score is tied in the 3rd and the one team is awarded a penalty shot and that turns out to be the winning goal should that not be considered a good win?

People like to skew things to make certain managers appear better and others worse.
Bizarre I know, not sure why they can't just be honest.

 

[4thline]

and... how many cup(s)/playoff success did these players have?

At the time of signing their 2nd contracts? Grand total number of cups was zero.

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

Not my argument, just repeating what I have read from those that can't accept the franchise points record was achieved under the guidance of Lou and Babcock.

Why are we comparing Lou and Babcock to Dubas and Keefe? Neither group has done much in Toronto. The most impressive thing from any of the 4 was Babcock bringing a team full of rookies to the playoffs. Both Lou and Dubas have given out some terrible contracts.

The captain of the ship is Shanahan and his time is running out. I will be sad to see him go, considering the state of the franchise before he came

 

[Twine Tickler]

The Leafs didn't draft Hyman. They traded for him from Florida

yes that is true. My mistake.

I misspoke for sure, but my point remains the same though. Zach may have been drafted by FLA, but he was developed entirely by TOR. His loyalty to the Leafs wouldn't have differed whether or he was drafted by us or acquired in D+1 or D+2.

The argument was that franchise players don't leave their drafted clubs, and although Zach is not a franchise player, nor was he drafted by us, there was an inherent loyalty he would have had to us being the club that gave him his shot.

But it is a business. He chose a better opportunity. Maybe it was the NMC, maybe it was more money, or maybe Zach just felt like EDM had a better chance to win. My entire point was that 1 year ago, myself, and others, felt it was incomprehensible that Zach would ever want to leave TOR. When in actuality the exact opposite unfolded.

Some people may want to believe Auston will undoubtingly resign with us in 2024, but we've seen this story before. He has the right to explore other options should he desire. So I just don't know how anyone could irrefutably deny that as a possibility.

 

[Dekes For Days]

People like to skew things to make certain managers appear better and others worse.
Bizarre I know, not sure why they can't just be honest.

Agreed. I'm not sure why some feel the need to prop up Lou, especially considering how little he did for the Leafs.

 

[PromisedLand]

At the time of signing their 2nd contracts? Grand total number of cups was zero.

Did they make it to the 2nd round? Led the team to some sort of playoff success?

After signing their 2nd contract how long after did they make past the 1st round? conference finals? cup finals? cups?

Can we say the same thing with the way Dubas has handed out the contracts?

 

[Apex Predator]

Yeah, I'm not sure why some feel the need to prop up Lou, especially considering how little he did for the Leafs.

Doesn’t that work both ways with Dubas?

 

[4thline]

Did they make it to the 2nd round? Led the team to some sort of playoff success?

After signing their 2nd contract how long after did they make past the 1st round? conference finals? cup finals? cups?

Can we say the same thing with the way Dubas has handed out the contracts?

How is this at all relevant to absolute truth that there was nothing unprecedented about the term or movement protection in Matthews 2nd contract? You know, what was being discussed

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

Agreed. I'm not sure why some feel the need to prop up Lou, especially considering how little he did for the Leafs.

Lou did nothing for the Leafs. Dubas has done a lot, and most of it has been bad

 

[PromisedLand]

How is this at all relevant to absolute truth that there was nothing unprecedented about the term or movement protection in Matthews 2nd contract? You know, what was being discussed

The way I saw the posts. Posts that you and others replied to shine a positive light on dubas clearly missed the "on ice results" portion of it. When players signed that 2nd contract they had already gone past the 1st round in the playoffs.

After signing their 2nd contract they had significant playoff succcess which Leafs do not have.

Dubas' decisions have had no positive impact on the team especially post season success. If post season success is not the goal then whats the point of even lacing up your skates?

Instead of me hashing out and repeating the same stuff I think @Twine Tickler did a great job explaining the point.

Do you believe in Dubas?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Did they make it to the 2nd round? Led the team to some sort of playoff success?

After signing their 2nd contract how long after did they make past the 1st round? conference finals? cup finals? cups?

Can we say the same thing with the way Dubas has handed out the contracts?

Are you arguing that NHL player contracts are based on projected team results by year?

 

[PromisedLand]

You are given a core team of Rielly, Matthews, Marner and Nylander but were also given all of the assets of Gardiner, Kapanen, Johnsson, Kadri, Connor Brown, Freddie Andersen, Zach Hyman, Dermott, expiring contracts of Bozak, Komarov and JVR, 4 years of draft picks, a couple of negative assets in Marleau and Zaitsev. How difficult do you think it would be to have built a team capable of qualifying for the playoffs?

My answer: not challenging for the average NHL GM. It would have taken gross incompetence to turn that inheritance into a non-playoff team. I propose that a superior NHL GM would have created a team that had gone deep in the playoffs several times if not won a Stanley Cup.

Yup!

 

[Stonehands1990]

I think that kind of illustrates my point though. At the time, a more than healthy raise for Hyman was considered to be 5AAV. We believed that Hyman would want to stay for a figure that was equal to or below that. We drafted him after all, it just seemed like there was no way he'd want to leave his drafted club....

Yet Zach made a personal decision to go to EDM instead, even though Toronto was rumored to have offered a healthy raise offer on an 8 year term. Is it possible that Zach was tired of the perpetual failures of his team?

Or was the extra 1-4 million over the 8 years the key differentiator?

Needless to say, Zach left for a reason that you and I never believed would happen. We both considered this homegrown product to be fiercely loyal. And under no circumstance would we have predicted he would leave TOR over a NMC or an extra 4 mill...etc.

He did.

you can think Auston has an unwavering loyalty to the Leafs, I really truly hope you throw this in my face in 2 off-season's time. I will welcome it. I just won't believe it until I see it.

We didn’t draft Hyman

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The way I saw the posts. Posts that you and others replied to shine a positive light on dubas clearly missed the "on ice results" portion of it. When players signed that 2nd contract they had already gone past the 1st round in the playoffs.

After signing their 2nd contract they had significant playoff succcess which Leafs do not have.

Dubas' decisions have had no positive impact on the team especially post season success. If post season success is not the goal then whats the point of even lacing up your skates?

Instead of me hashing out and repeating the same stuff I think @Twine Tickler did a great job explaining the point.

Do you believe in Dubas?

You do understand that the big difference in Chicago and Pittsburgh is that the big guns were literally almost the final pieces of the puzzle whereas in Toronto they came at the start of the puzzle, yes?

 

[Twine Tickler]

Why speculate on something clearly not true? He went to Edmonton, not Tampa

Speculation is never 100% factual. But I think there is room to believe this statement is plausible.

He was front and center for the 5 straight first round exits. I really don't think he would have had to stretch his imagination all that far to think EDM had a better chance at winning than us. They have the best player on the planet, and maybe even the 2nd best player. Certainly 2 of the top 3 players in the world.

Zach left not because we didn't offer him a deal. We didn't offer as appealing of an opportunity. Whether that was financial, NMC, or probability to win.

To the original point, Auston may find a better opportunity elsewhere in 2024, and we'd have no f***ing way to stop that from happening.

Can someone explain to me why it's a good thing that the best player to ever play for the Leafs has the power to freely walk away from our franchise in 2024, a full 3 seasons before it should have ever occurred?

That was my entire point in the first place. The Hyman scenario was merely brought in as an example that some people, including myself, thought he'd never leave because he was loyal to the soil. Which is the only defense people have proposed for Auston thus far.

 

[Stonehands1990]

At the time of signing their 2nd contracts? Grand total number of cups was zero.

Kane & Toews won a cup on their last year of ELC. But overall is a BS example because he hand picked the few examples who won early in their careers

 

[PromisedLand]

You do understand that the big difference in Chicago and Pittsburgh is that the big guns were literally almost the final pieces of the puzzle whereas in Toronto they came at the start of the puzzle, yes?

Leafs have had ZERO playoff success. Matthews and Nylander are pendiing UFAs in a couple years. Cap aint going anywhere.

Absolutely terrible foresight. McDavid and Draisaitl sign 8 year deals, dubas goes and hands out the most player friendly deal at the expense of the team composition. That is not a good GM looking out for team success.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Doesn’t that work both ways with Dubas?

I wouldn't say acknowledging the actual good work somebody has done is remotely the same.

 

[4thline]

The way I saw the posts. Posts that you and others replied to shine a positive light on dubas clearly missed the "on ice results" portion of it. When players signed that 2nd contract they had already gone past the 1st round in the playoffs.

After signing their 2nd contract they had significant playoff succcess which Leafs do not have.

Dubas' decisions have had no positive impact on the team especially post season success. If post season success is not the goal then whats the point of even lacing up your skates?

Instead of me hashing out and repeating the same stuff I think @Twine Tickler did a great job explaining the point.

Do you believe in Dubas?

I provided factual information correcting the misconception that Matthews' contractual situation was unprecedented. If "correctly portraying historical precedent" is "shining a positive light", that speaks for itself. The poster I was engaging with thanked me for the information, so it's pretty clear that the contractual element is what was being discussed, and that the "on ice results" portion of it was not at issue, but is you looking for something to bitch about.

Though if you want to tilt at windmills I suppose you're in the right spot. I'm glad that mods have shown some discretion to leave this thread open well past it's "limit". It's great having a catch all spot for those that would rather dislike Dubas than enjoy a 13-6-1 team winning despite it's star offense underproducing.

 

[Apex Predator]

I wouldn't say acknowledging the actual good work somebody has done is remotely the same.

don’t you think people prop up Dubas more than he should? Shouldn’t Dubas also get criticism for the stuff he did wrong?

Both Lou and Dubas have done good and bad. End of the day we’re at the same spot we were with Lou.

 

[4thline]

Kane & Toews won a cup on their last year of ELC. But overall is a BS example because he hand picked the few examples who won early in their careers

Check the signing date on those 2nd contracts.

It wasn't a BS sample though. It was the players I provided demonstrating that 5 year 2nd contracts with NMC's in the 5 year are pretty commonplace to stars. The point he was trying to make... irrelevant bellyaching.

 

[PromisedLand]

I provided factual information correcting the misconception that Matthews' contractual situation was unprecedented. If "correctly portraying historical precedent" is "shining a positive light", that speaks for itself. The poster I was engaging with thanked me for the information, so it's pretty clear that the contractual element is what was being discussed, and that the "on ice results" portion of it was not at issue, but is you looking for something to bitch about.

Though if you want to tilt at windmills I suppose you're in the right spot. I'm glad that mods have shown some discretion to leave this thread open well past it's "limit". It's great having a catch all spot for those that would rather dislike Dubas than enjoy a 13-6-1 team winning despite it's star offense underproducing.

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM

Is Dubas a GM to make the Leafs a better team? Or is he a GM to just pay the players whatever they want; the post season success dosn't matter?

It is baffling that Dubas fans want the threads closed as soon as anyone critics him? whats the freakin' point of these boards then?

 

[Seras]

Did they make it to the 2nd round? Led the team to some sort of playoff success?

After signing their 2nd contract how long after did they make past the 1st round? conference finals? cup finals? cups?

Can we say the same thing with the way Dubas has handed out the contracts?

Losing first or losing last is still losing.

Only one team wins.

 

[4thline]

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM

Is Dubas a GM to make the Leafs a better team? Or is he a GM to just pay the players whatever they want; the post season success dosn't matter?

if you want to tilt at windmills I suppose you're in the right spot. I'm glad that mods have shown some discretion to leave this thread open well past it's "limit". It's great having a catch all spot for those that would rather dislike Dubas than enjoy a 13-6-1 team winning despite it's star offense underproducing.