Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

[Canadian Finn]

What about the head games the players are playing?

 

[makbeer]

The same posters here that wanted a HOF GM in Lou Lamoriello replaced by Kyle Dubas, because supposedly, Lou was too old and out of touch, are the same group who wanted Babcock fired and replaced by Keefe.

So let’s see, what has Lou done since he left?

Oh just completely turned around the perennial basement dwelling New York Islanders, gotten them into the second round of the playoffs in his first year and then taken them into the conference finals the next two years and in the process won the GM of the year in back to back seasons.

So with all due respect, hopefully you’ll forgive me and many others here, who get just a little bit frustrated having to listen now to all the creatively lame excuses about why Dubas has failed to make any progress in moving the Leafs forward, especially when they appeared to be well on their way to finally doing something significant with the GM you wanted replaced.

The bottom line here is you got the GM you pushed for, you got the coach your GM supposedly needed and the results have been very underwhelming.

So perhaps remedy your misjudgment by; stopping the non-stop excuses, suggesting more time is needed and just own the results of your misjudgment.

I’m sorry, but Dubas just isn’t the great GM you thought he would be and he’ll most likely be replaced after this year, by someone with more experience after we have wasted 4 years figuring out what many of us already knew, which was, Dubas wasn’t ready to be the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Lou understands the basics - you build from the net out - he solidifies goaltending first everywhere he goes.

It's no surprise we had our first steady starter in net in ages during his tenure, and now that he is gone we are back to platooning/bargain bin goalies.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Lou understands the basics - you build from the net out - he solidifies goaltending first everywhere he goes.

It's no surprise we had our first steady starter in net in ages during his tenure, and now that he is gone we are back to platooning/bargain bin goalies.

Yeah I’m a bit tired of this Kyle Dubas build from the wing inwards nonsense. When Kapanen was here we had 22 million tied up in right wingers alone lol. What absurd management

 

[DarkKnight]

I think his image has been rebuilt somewhat, watching this team fail in the same ways under a new coach. It’s looks more and more like he was the least of our worries. I predict he gets a gig this season. His ego got him in the end, Dubas is showing the same characteristic in his own way, stubbornness and inflated self belief.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think his image has been rebuilt somewhat, watching this team fail in the same ways under a new coach. It’s looks more and more like he was the least of our worries. I predict he gets a gig this season. His ego got him in the end, Dubas is showing the same characteristic in his own way, stubbornness and inflated self belief.

I wish I could poke holes in this but it seems spot on.

 

[Bomber0104]

All these Leafs keep doing is proving Babcock right.

He's been gone from the team for a few years now yet he's still teaching this team and fanbase valuable lessons.

 

[yubbers]

Isn't this the exact argument about how pointless it is to bring up Babcock's cup/medals? He was handed the keys to the best team by a large margin and basically his job was to not screw it up.

Kind of funny to bring that up.

Also, hasn't Keefe won at every level he's coached at so far?

Huh? I'm saying you can't call Babcock a shit coach because his resume speaks for itself. He set a career points record here and then MLSE hired a GM that had zero chance of meshing with him.

Dubas has nothing but bad contract negotiations and trades to hang his hat on.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lou understands the basics - you build from the net out

Unfortunately, Lou doesn't understand anything else, and he stopped at the net, and didn't improve the defense or any part of the rest of the team at all.

It's no surprise we had our first steady starter in net in ages during his tenure, and now that he is gone we are back to platooning/bargain bin goalies.

The only goaltending issue we had last year was the goaltender Lou acquired.

 

[BlueForever75]

Matthews should still be separated from Marner. Simple.

I would rather have 2 forty plus goal scorers on my team than 1.

 

[mulefarm]

Babcock had a plan. Something that Dubas doesn’t have!

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I think Babcock understood what this team "needed" but went about it terribly. He seemed to understand the issues, lack of intensity, back checking, physicality etc. But just addressed those concerns terribly. Also him refusing to make adjustments was painful as hell to watch.

I think this is a reasonable assessment. I've suggested many times on this board that I think Babcock did have a plan for this team on a macro level that he was striving to achieve, and I think he would have taken them there if given time of his contract.

But his personality did him in. Although seeing now how the team is and that pretty much not much has changed in terms of the team's fortunes and the same inconsistencies, maybe it wasn't a matter of the players tuning him out as it was the players just not having "it".

He kind of reminds of Ron Wilson come to think of it. Brash, egotistical, combative, assholish -- but deep down I think they both had the best intentions of the players behind closed doors.

 

[Trapper]

Babcock had a plan. Something that Dubas doesn’t have!

Dubas has a plan.
Do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.
Plan.

 

[francis246]

His arrogance was his downfall. You're asking to be fired when you play stupid head games with players and act like you have as much authourity as the GM.

he did have as much authority we knew signing here, he would have input on player personnel and let’s be real, the leafs organization knew exactly what they were getting with him. I think if Shanahan could go back he would have told Dubas stick with him until the end of the year, or maybe he gives Lou and Babcock one more year together.

additionally I don’t blame Babcock for being upset with Dubas, the coach is telling you what we need and Dubas went and got the opposite of that everytime

 

[BlueForever75]

Prior to Keefe coming on board the Hyman-Matthews-Nylander line were not an issue. They played together for 2 seasons and produced. It should have never been dismantled. Especially when Tavares first season produced 40+ goals with Marner on his wing.

It was utterly stupid of Keefe to come in a try to fix something that wasnt broken. Instead he should have focused on finding a fixture on Tavares other side and finding a 3rd line unit that worked.

Also, people can bash Babcock for the use of Marleau. But what about the use of Simmonds and Thornton on the PP that stopped working a third into last season? We had competent players that werent given PP time for it to be given to them.

 

[egd27]

Babcock had a plan. Something that Dubas doesn’t have!

It was amazing how Babcock's ability to coach fell off a cliff right after the 2018 season. It was almost like a switch was flipped.

 

[BlueForever75]

It was amazing how Babcock's ability to coach fell off a cliff right after the 2018 season. It was almost like a switch was flipped.

The switch was Dubas.

Friction between he and Babcock became poisonous to the dressing room and overall plan.

 

[Bomber0104]

The switch was Dubas.

Friction between he and Babcock became poisonous to the dressing room and overall plan.

Thank heavens there's no more friction.

Now we're losing, with everyone on the same page!

 

[DarkKnight]

Unfortunately, Lou doesn't understand anything else, and he stopped at the net, and didn't improve the defense or any part of the rest of the team at all.

The only goaltending issue we had last year was the goaltender Lou acquired.

This is embarrassing, the guy is in the HOF, everywhere he goes they win and you actually posit he doesn’t get it, outside of goaltending. Some objectivity would really help with your credibility, you can’t pump Dubas on everything and not at least give the old man his due. It’s okay to admit he’s good at his job, he is and the entire hockey world knows it. Even Dubas said he still calls Lou for advice.

 

[DarkKnight]

Thank heavens there's no more friction.

Now we're losing, with everyone on the same page!

Why did we need Jumbo in the room then?

 

[Dekes For Days]

the guy is in the HOF

He's largely in the HOF because of the goaltending he's gotten, and he's definitely not in the HOF because of his time with the Leafs, so that doesn't really counter what I said.

 

[DarkKnight]

He's largely in the HOF because of the goaltending he's gotten, and he's definitely not in the HOF because of his time with the Leafs, so that doesn't really counter what I said.

Sure it does. He wins everywhere he goes, he’s still respected around the league and he clearly builds teams. Last time I checked you go nowhere without goaltending, hardly a revelation that you build from the net out. Some nuance would be nice, it’s okay to admit certain things without your entire argument falling apart. Dubas isn’t infallible and Lou does good things.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Last time I checked you go nowhere without goaltending, hardly a revelation that you build from the net out.

I didn't say that was wrong, or even that Lou was bad when it comes to finding goaltending. It just doesn't mean we can ignore the many other parts of GMing that Lou failed at, especially during his time with the Leafs.

 

[DarkKnight]

I didn't say that was wrong, or even that Lou was bad when it comes to finding goaltending. It just doesn't mean we can ignore the many other parts of GMing that Lou failed at, especially during his time with the Leafs.

Okay. And don’t admit any wrong Kyle has done. Got it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Okay. And don’t admit any wrong Kyle has done. Got it.

I have no issue with accurately discussing the things Dubas does, but the topic being discussed was Lou. I wasn't discussing Dubas at all.

 

[ACC1224]

Sure it does. He wins everywhere he goes, he’s still respected around the league and he clearly builds teams. Last time I checked you go nowhere without goaltending, hardly a revelation that you build from the net out. Some nuance would be nice, it’s okay to admit certain things without your entire argument falling apart. Dubas isn’t infallible and Lou does good things.

Blasphemy