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Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

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Menzinger said:
Babcock certainly wasn't wrong about some things like wanting his players to compete at a high level. Then again, wanting his players to skate hard wasnt why he was fired either.

Being right about some things doesn't erase his problems and the ultimate reasons that got him fired
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It’s kind of like a GM.
Every GM makes some good trades/signings/moves and some bad ones.

Ultimately there comes a time where your vision has to show some progress.
If you are going to set a new cap, be some kind of revolutionary builder, bet your job on a core, it has to pay off when it counts.
 
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McSnypsky said:
I think their might be a bigger problem cause there there was no pain? I was ready for losing for a few years and then getting better but suddenly we're in the playoffs and expectations are really high and every year the expectations are based on the past years that were supposed to be painful? So Babs set up for pain which probably would've been actually beneficial in hindsight.
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I think he included playoffs disappointment though. Our fanbase was never ready for the reality of building year over year. All many of us saw was a 1st round exit. Not that it was a 1st round exit to Stanley Cup, veteran star ladened teams. Those losses, painful...as they were, weren't the result of a bad team, but a young team learning.

What we witnessed against Montreal was a misstep. An indication that the process was interrupted and perhaps derailed.

The hope has to be that it's not beyond repair.

But Babcock the coach wasn't the problem despite the vultures. He made a mistake in Toronto with a player. A player incidentally enough who has drawn the ire of the fanbase, seemingly, for the same thing Babcock had a problem with.

Maturity by necessity takes time. I hope that time is reinvested into Toronto's future rather than allowed to walk for nothing. That will be the club's absolute low point should we get there. And then, we'll be forced to repeat the same lessons again.
 
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ITM said:
I think he included playoffs disappointment though. Our fanbase was never ready for the reality of building year over year. All many of us saw was a 1st round exit. Not that it was a 1st round exit to Stanley Cup, veteran star ladened teams. Those losses, painful...as they were, weren't the result of a bad team, but a young team learning.

What we witnessed against Montreal was a misstep. An indication that the process was interrupted and perhaps derailed.

The hope has to be that it's not beyond repair.

But Babcock the coach wasn't the problem despite the vultures. He made a mistake in Toronto with a player. A player incidentally enough who has drawn the ire of the fanbase, seemingly, for the same thing Babcock had a problem with.

Maturity by necessity takes time. I hope that time is reinvested into Toronto's future rather than allowed to walk for nothing. That will be the club's absolute low point should we get there. And then, we'll be forced to repeat the same lessons again.
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It might require a management change.
Sure, save your core as long as possible.
Babcock might have been too much one way and Dubas/Keefe might be too passive the other.

Both sides can stall what you need to become.
 
BlueForever75 said:
I know we always complained on how Babcock had his lines setup, and there was this big deal that he wasnt playing Matthews with Marner. But after a season and half of watching Keefe do the opposite of what Babcock did in his tenure. I am wondering if Babcock was right after all!!!! I will explain.

Matthews scored 40+ goals without Marner correct? Who were his linemates? Hyman and Nylander.

Tavares scored 40+ goals with Marner correct? Never did it before correct?

PP started to struggle when Keefe put all his eggs in one basket when he took over. Worked for a bit but teams figured them out.

So here is my question......are the Leafs a better team with Matthews-Nylander and Tavares-Marner combos?

Does it truly give us to threats, because last year I didnt like what we saw.

Also, would it be wise putting those pairs on separate PPs? Load it up on 5 on 3s. But keep it spread out otherwise. It provides 2 different looks to opposing PKs.

What are you thoughts?
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The real problem is being dead set on one approach. Babcock was dead set on his setup and Keefe has been dead set on keeping marner/matthews together.

I would just like a coach to be adaptable based on the situation/circumstances/results and make changes as necessary.
 
Guy Boucher said:
The real problem is being dead set on one approach. Babcock was dead set on his setup and Keefe has been dead set on keeping marner/matthews together.

I would just like a coach to be adaptable based on the situation/circumstances/results and make changes as necessary.
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We have a GM who is dead set on stuff too.
Put half the cap to 4 forwards and don’t change till it works.
Which might be fine for 2,3,4 tries but we are going 6 now.
 
yubbers said:
And Dubas missed the playoffs with Matthews and also hasn't won a round. So on your logic..... Shouldn't you be calling for his head? But that would of course require consistency :) and just plain ignoring the pedigree of Babcock.... The fact he coached the team to a franchise record in points..... Only to stick up for a rookie GM with not a lick of success? Hey..... You do you I guess.

It's fun watching ppl shit on a guywith cup rings and gold medals while fawning over a dude with literally no success. And he was handed a golden goose. There's no logic behind your argument at all.
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But this thread isn't a comparison. Babcock is trash and no one touching him.
 
Mats13 said:
No.

Keefe might not be the answer, but that doesn’t change how awful of a coach Babcock was.
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Babcock wasn’t an awful coach, I hate this stupid ass narrative. You can’t look at Matthews/Marner 3 years after the fact and blame Babcock. They have matured as players and if Dubas gave Babcock time he could have developed with them. Babcock didn’t do it the right way and was questionable in his methods but he was trying to get them to get play the way they are playing now earlier. If only they listened to him, maybe we beat Boston in game 7.

the 3 kids have been coddled their entire careers
 
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PromisedLand said:
A GM should have a coach that sees eye to eye.

Babcock had a vision that was thrown out the door the day dubas was hired.

Babcock's vision of:

  • Compete level
  • 50-50 puck battle
  • playing the right way
  • being first to the puck
  • being on the right side of the puck
  • playing body
  • etc...

are somethings that seasoned NHL coaches desire. Heck Tampa changed their "offense only" outlook after getting embarassed by CBJ. It was a total team buy in.


Babcock's worst season as a coach here (excluding tank season) he had:
  • Petan, Barrie, Sparks, Ceci

Babcock's approach to the game is way different, I think his approach is a combination of Trotz's defense and Bourdreau's offense -> i.e. very demanding on players. No half ass BS on either side of the ice, short shifts and full throttle 100% shifts. Babcock also ran very short practices so that players can use that energy during the game instead of practices.


Only problem with Babcock was he was stubborn where he would not ice Matthews in game 7 to get goals when were were playing from behind in the 2nd sereis against Boston.

I think Babcock was not a bad coach, he just did not get to realize his vision because he didn't get the players he would have like to execute his systems.

When Lou was here he got Babcock: Hainsey, Polak, Andersen, Boyle, Plakanec

Hainsey was here to help Rielly, Polak was here to insulate both Rielly/Gardiner and take more PK minutes, Boyle and Plakanec both defensive players were gifts to the roster for showing promise in regular season.

Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander were all very young and still learning; including Rielly.


Enter Dubas:
Babcock's 1 season with Dubas as a GM: Players he got babcock due to cap crunch

Barrie, Ceci, Petan, Sparks, Trevor Moore, etc....

Only formidable add from Dubas was Muzzin IMO during babcock's time here. And JT from UFA


Dubas enforcerd his vision brought in his coach (a rookie); and the results are for everyone to see.
Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander are now seasoned players and not rookies or ELC players. Tavares is another forward taking in significant portion of the cap.

Bottom Line:
I don't think we ever got to see Babcock's vision fully implemented

We have seen Dubas' vision fully implemented for a season and a half and this upcoming season will make it 2 and a half season (unless dubas and keefe are fired mid-season)
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thank you!! Couldn’t have been said better
 
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Advanced stats said:
There's a lot more to Babcock that the Matthews-marner dilemma.

Honestly, stars are going to put up numbers no matter what. Babcock had other areas where he failed miserably and everyone knows it. Hence the reason he's coaching highschool hockey now
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he’s coaching college hockey*
 
Trapper said:
It might require a management change.
Sure, save your core as long as possible.
Babcock might have been too much one way and Dubas/Keefe might be too passive the other.

Both sides can stall what you need to become.
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It requires as an absolute minimum a coach change for the upcoming season.
 
full
 
yubbers said:
And Dubas missed the playoffs with Matthews and also hasn't won a round. So on your logic..... Shouldn't you be calling for his head? But that would of course require consistency :) and just plain ignoring the pedigree of Babcock.... The fact he coached the team to a franchise record in points..... Only to stick up for a rookie GM with not a lick of success? Hey..... You do you I guess.

It's fun watching ppl shit on a guywith cup rings and gold medals while fawning over a dude with literally no success. And he was handed a golden goose. There's no logic behind your argument at all.
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This is bang on!! And this is coming from someone who was arguably the biggest Babcock critic on these boards at the time.
 
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francis246 said:
he’s coaching college hockey*
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Last interview with Babcock I saw he said he wants to spend some time in saskatchewan with his family as his sister has also moved there. so he took on the coaching gig there. I mean he is still getting paid the full salary by MLSE to chill out; its not like he is not getting paid.

He had also said that he is open to come back to NHL but not anytime soon for the reasons mentioned above.
 
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mikeyz said:
There's no indication of that?

We lost Hyman, Bogosian and possibly Foligno. 3 guys that the Leafs desperately need. We have gotten much worse.

Plus do you remember the last normal season before Covid started? Florida was really nipping at our heels for 3rd place. And they've gotten better since then and like I said we've gotten worse.

Not to mention they are nowhere near as good as Tampa and Boston. Also, the Metropolitan division is stacked and the Leafs will be hard pressed to get 1 of those 2 spots.

Believe me my friend. Don't be naive. I am not making a guarantee that they'll miss the playoffs, but here are alot of indications that missing is a very real possibility.

Edit: And I didn't even mention losing Freddie and going with an unproven starting goalie in Campbell.
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Freddie has been replacement level for a long time, Campbell is as unproved as Freddie.

Keefe as the coach is on a 105pt pace.

Foligno has played like 10 regular season games for us, why is he being factored in here?

Hyman is the only legit argument, conveniently, last year during the regular season Thornton and Hyman were both equally effective on that line, so I think the line was driven by Marner/Matthews, not Hyman, but he is still a legit loss.

The Metro being some powerhouse is overblown. Carolina and the Islanders had similar records to us when Covid hit.

Florida has gotten better, so there is maybe a chance that we are looking at a wildcard spot, but I still think the Leafs are the better team and nothing that has happened in the last couple years would indicate otherwise other than hurt feelings.
 
yubbers said:
It's fun watching ppl shit on a guywith cup rings and gold medals while fawning over a dude with literally no success. And he was handed a golden goose. There's no logic behind your argument at all.
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Isn't this the exact argument about how pointless it is to bring up Babcock's cup/medals? He was handed the keys to the best team by a large margin and basically his job was to not screw it up.

Kind of funny to bring that up.

Also, hasn't Keefe won at every level he's coached at so far?
 
PromisedLand said:
Last interview with Babcock I saw he said he wants to spend some time in saskatchewan with his family as his sister has also moved there. so he took on the coaching gig there. I mean he is still getting paid the full salary by MLSE to chill out; its not like he is not getting paid.

He had also said that he is open to come back to NHL but not anytime soon for the reasons mentioned above.
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I fully believe that once his contract is done with the leafs Babcock will be a head coach in the NHL. I think he’s going to do the one year in Saskatchewan and commit to that (btw U of Sask is a hell of a U Sports program) same with my Alma Mater York University :)
 
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Stonehands1990 said:
I would take Randy Carlyle over Sheldon Keefe. I hated Carlyle’s outdated systems but at least the Leafs weren’t doing ridiculous turn backs and drop passes. And Carlyle worked his ass off to get Kessel away from chara in the playoffs. Something Keefe brags about not doing
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Good one Randy.
 
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