Devils Team Discussion (team/player news and notes) ‎2015 offseason V

[NJDevs26]

The market for Kessel is not going to be very strong. I'm sure TO will not be retaining salary as dumping his salary is the primary reason he will get dealt. That will limit where he can go by virtue of cap space (which is flatlining) and the financial ability to pay of the team acquiring him. Cross Arizona off that list right off the top, there's no way they trade for him now, and does anyone really think Maloney will give TO #3 for him?? Exactly...why would we do that with our pick? That further lowers his trade value.

What I'm noticing is that people are so in love with draft picks and prospects that a good number of people are willing to have a rotting corpse of a hockey player eat up $6M of space just to acquire another 1st round pick, whereas, no one will touch Kessel who only costs $1.8M more, even if we don't give #6.

Absolutely baffling to me.

You're not wrong on the one hand...but on the other getting Kessel doesn't really help us now, and with his body type and questionable work ethic probably won't be a productive player a few years from now so that's a tangible reason for arguing futures over getting a player now.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Giving a rookie coach Kessel doesn't seem like a good idea. Even if some of it was overblown.

 

[billingtons ghost]

With all of this trade talk, it just makes me think of those little 52-week price range graphs that they have on all of the stock trading sites and the %short #s and buy/sell ratings.

Jim has the right idea above.

Larsson is at the peak of his range (thus far), but his stock is only rising so there are no shorts - and he's definitely a BUY.

Merrill is middle-low 25% on his range (as his rocky year dropped his stock) but there are few shorts as he's got a pretty high ceiling- so he's still a BUY.

Gelinas is also middle-low 25% on his range, as his D play knocks him down. There are some shorts thinking he'll never turn that around, but some rabid longs thinking his shot is guaranteeing him PP-qb time and 50 points. - he's a BUY.

Severson is just ridiculously hyped - top of range, no shorts in sight, buy buy buy.

All four of them are good buys for other teams right now - but like Jim said, you are probably going to get only 25% of Merrill/Gelinas's potential value back... so unless you are dealing them for a guy with a similar 'High ceiling, cloudy future' outlook, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You might get close to the value of Larsson back, but right now it is time to sit and hold onto your assets.

 

[JimEIV]

That assumes Grigorenko's ceiling as being a 50-point forward which I don't believe to be true. Which would change the argument completely if you were talking about say, a 65-70 point forward and a 45-point defenseman.

The problem with these debates is either people assume our younger players are automatically better than someone else's younger players or conversely assume the grass is automatically greener on the other side. Like with the Larsson-Drasati trade mentioned earlier...that would be horrendous value for Larsson atm

I don't disagree with any of that but I think the value of time is lost in these discussions.

We've gone through a development process with Gelinas, what is the value of 45 points from a Gelinas next year vs a 70 point forward 3 years from now? Same with trading a Larsson for a player who may become dominant 4 or 5 years from now...it's like an 8 or 9 year wait for a payoff(in the Larsson scenario)when you count the years we've put into these dmen plus waiting for the forward to reach their true potential.

That is going backwards in my opinion.

 

[Bologna 1]

interesting names out there of younger forwards who could possibly be had in a deal centered around, lets say, gelinas: markus granlund & victor rask...both interesting names to me

 

[Colin226]

Preseason Schedule News

Devils @ Flyers - 9/30 (Wednesday)

Flyers @ Devils - 10/2 (Friday)

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=770456&navid=DL|PHI|home

 

[Burner Account]

Kessel is a baby. Typical "you never played" guy in media scrums.

Pass.

 

[JimEIV]

Kessel is a baby. Typical "you never played" guy in media scrums.

Pass.

I don't really care about the media stuff, I care that twice he has worn out his welcome from two separate organizations. Something is more than not right there.

It isn't too often that you see two different organizations chomping at the bit to get rid of a consistent 30 goal scorer.

 

[217 Forever]

I don't disagree with any of that but I think the value of time is lost in these discussions.

We've gone through a development process with Gelinas, what is the value of 45 points from a Gelinas next year vs a 70 point forward 3 years from now? Same with trading a Larsson for a player who may become dominant 4 or 5 years from now...it's like an 8 or 9 year wait for a payoff(in the Larsson scenario)when you count the years we've put into these dmen plus waiting for the forward to reach their true potential.

That is going backwards in my opinion.

I don't know how you look at things in a vacuum like that. Trading Gelinas doesn't lose you 45 points. You lose the difference between him and his replacement. Peter Harrold could probably get you 35 if you gave him a regular shift so you'd only lose 10 points if that's what you're worried about (for example).

The phrase "going backwards to go forward" came from somewhere.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I don't really care about the media stuff, I care that twice he has worn out his welcome from two separate organizations. Something is more than not right there.

It isn't too often that you see two different organizations chomping at the bit to get rid of a consistent 30 goal scorer.

Exactly my narrative.

But whenever I bring up that Kessel has failed in two of two cities, I get point totals thrown in my face.

 

[Davegarri]

I don't really care about the media stuff, I care that twice he has worn out his welcome from two separate organizations. Something is more than not right there.

It isn't too often that you see two different organizations chomping at the bit to get rid of a consistent 30 goal scorer.

Media wouldn't be a problem here anyway. Kessel just can't deal with how the Toronto media acts and how they rip everyone to shreds. NJ media doesn't care as much and the New York media are all up the Rangers ass.

I think Kessel would actually be very successful here, but it still isn't worth the asking price IMO.

 

[217 Forever]

Exactly my narrative.

But whenever I bring up that Kessel has failed in two of two cities, I get point totals thrown in my face.

It's not a good sign but you never know. Kovy didn't exactly have a great reputation either. Many guys straighten up and fly right when they realize their livelihood is at stake (not financially but performance wise).

 

[goawaygary*]

From what I've seen, Crouse can't play in the league yet and has the biggest bust potential. Need to steer clear of him

Zacha can absolutely play in the NHL now

Rantanen is 50/50 if he sticks in the NHL year 1

 

[MichaelJ]

interesting names out there of younger forwards who could possibly be had in a deal centered around, lets say, gelinas: markus granlund & victor rask...both interesting names to me

Rask could be a very nice pickup. I still would rather chase Grigorenko. I'd love for this team to find a way to hoard young forwards that other teams think are expendable

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

It's not a good sign but you never know. Kovy didn't exactly have a great reputation either. Many guys straighten up and fly right when they realize their livelihood is at stake (not financially but performance wise).

Kovalchuk and Kessel have two completely different situations.

IK was the captain for a franchise that was run so poorly it doesn't exist anymore. There was never a vision in Atlanta, never a direction. He just showed up, skated fast and scored goals. It's not that he never wanted to be a two-way guy, he never had to. And was never coaxed into it. Until he was traded to NJ.

PK, on the other hand, has failed in two high-profile organizations with obvious direction, and under two notable coaches known for the structure they preach (Julien and Carlyle). Hockey is played in 3 zones, and Kessel plays in 1. And with the attitude and motivation issues that have been swirling this guy since his draft year, it's no surprise that he simply won't comply with a defense-oriented system. He would fail in New Jersey.

Context.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Rask could be a very nice pickup. I still would rather chase Grigorenko. I'd love for this team to find a way to hoard young forwards that other teams think are expendable

CAR is very high on Rask. They see E Staal-J Staal-Rask moving forward.

Nash is the more realistic target in Carolina.

 

[JimEIV]

I don't know how you look at things in a vacuum like that. Trading Gelinas doesn't lose you 45 points. You lose the difference between him and his replacement. Peter Harrold could probably get you 35 if you gave him a regular shift so you'd only lose 10 points if that's what you're worried about (for example).

The phrase "going backwards to go forward" came from somewhere.

That is not what I am talking about at all - This is a conversation that was going on from the previous page...

The issue is selling low. And when you sell low you are going to end up paying twice the amount for the same return.

The issue is a Gelinas doesn't have the value today that he can once fully developed, really none of our defensemen do.

So in order to get the return we are looking for we will have to add for a forward. It is not a smart move at all. You're losing the value of your development time, you losing the true value of the player because you don't have the patience to wait and you're throwing away an other asset (the add) to make up the difference in the current low value...It is an all around loser deal.

 

[217 Forever]

Kovalchuk and Kessel have two completely different situations.

IK was the captain for a franchise that was run so poorly it doesn't exist anymore. There was never a vision in Atlanta, never a direction. He just showed up, skated fast and scored goals. It's not that he never wanted to be a two-way guy, he never had to. And was never coaxed into it. Until he was traded to NJ.

PK, on the other hand, has failed in two high-profile organizations with obvious direction, and under two notable coaches known for the structure they preach (Julien and Carlyle). Hockey is played in 3 zones, and Kessel plays in 1. And with the attitude and motivation issues that have been swirling this guy since his draft year, it's no surprise that he simply won't comply with a defense-oriented system. He would fail in New Jersey.

Context.

The Leafs have direction? They just gutted their whole front office. And how old was Kessel in Boston when he "failed"? Seguin "failed" there too. Guess they should have probably given him a second chance instead of trading him at such a young age.

 

[217 Forever]

That is not what I am talking about at all - This is a conversation that was going on from the previous page...

The issue is selling low. And when you sell low you are going to end up paying twice the amount for the same return.

The issue is a Gelinas doesn't have the value today that he can once fully developed, really none of our defensemen do.

So in order to get the return we are looking for we will have to add for a forward. It is not a smart move at all. You're losing the value of your development time, you losing the true value of the player because you don't have the patience to wait and you're throwing away an other asset (the add) to make up the difference in the current low value...It is an all around loser deal.

I guess in your mind you don't ever trade a guy until you know what he's worth. I make trades if I think it improves the team. That's the nature of trading. No guarantees in life.

 

[JimEIV]

The Leafs have direction? They just gutted their whole front office. And how old was Kessel in Boston when he "failed"? Seguin "failed" there too. Guess they should have probably given him a second chance instead of trading him at such a young age.

Kessel and Seguin didn't fail as players in Boston...They failed at being good professionals and teammates. Just like Kane did in Winnipeg.

At least according to Chara that is what happened...Now we are seeing the exact same AGAIN in Toronto with Kessel. Not good.

 

[217 Forever]

Kessel and Seguin didn't fail as players in Boston...They failed at being good professionals and teammates. Just like Kane did in Winnipeg.

At least according to Chara that is what happened...Now we are seeing the exact same AGAIN in Toronto with Kessel. Not good.

Anyone hear of problems with Seguin in Dallas? Sometimes it just takes a little maturing and the right setting.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Anyone hear of problems with Seguin in Dallas? Sometimes it just takes a little maturing and the right setting.

Kessel will be 28 when the puck drops next season.

You're making excuses for him.

 

[JimEIV]

I guess in your mind you don't ever trade a guy until you know what he's worth. I make trades if I think it improves the team. That's the nature of trading. No guarantees in life.

That is an excellent mindset for a contender...Someone chasing a cup, someone looking to get to the next level...That is why we move a Souray for a Malakhov or a Morrision for a Mogilny...

It is not what a team does while rebuilding.

We should be stockpiling right now. We should developing our own assets and grooming them into established NHL players.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

The Leafs have direction? They just gutted their whole front office. And how old was Kessel in Boston when he "failed"? Seguin "failed" there too. Guess they should have probably given him a second chance instead of trading him at such a young age.

They sure as hell had direction when that fat extension was signed. Nonis was essentially a Bowman, remember?

Kessel is part of the reason why that front office was just gutted. The Leafs absolutely thought he would turn a corner.. in fact they gambled $64M on it (and two firsts). He didn't, though, and now they're picking 4th overall and he turns 28 soon.

He failed in Toronto.

 

[217 Forever]

They sure as hell had direction when that fat extension was signed. Nonis was essentially a Bowman, remember?

Kessel is part of the reason why that front office was just gutted. The Leafs absolutely thought he would turn a corner.. in fact they gambled $64M on it (and two firsts). He didn't, though, and now they're picking 4th overall and he turns 28 soon.

He failed in Toronto.

I hope you're kidding.