Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXIV

[Eggtimer]

While I agree with your sentiment on how those guys have played recently, I doubt the organization sees Bahl and Ohkotyuk above Smith right now. In fact Id bet they see Smith as Graves replacement whenever he leaves (deadline or after a playoff run).

Sophomore slumps for smaller defenseman are maybe the harshest if any sophomore slumps in hockey. Usually they are just awful defensively and get lost a lot.

Id wager the odds of Smith looking back to rookie form after the offseason are high and the fact that he has higher potential still reigns true over Bahl and Ohkotyuk, who idt have top-4 d qualities outside of becoming Siegenthaler-level defenders.

Smith and Graves are not comparable style wise and I don’t think Smith is seen as any sort of replacement for Graves. When Fitz talked about Graves just after tradig for him, he said that the Devils habe watched Graves and wanted to acquire him for awhile. Fitz loves his size and mobility for a big man. If anything , Muk , Bahl , Okhotiuk are seen as possible Graves replacements . Not Smith.

 

[Devs3cups]

How great is this!!!

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Whats not simple is any of this, first of all. Im not sure why you keep saying that. If any of this was simple, GMs and professional scouts wouldnt be paid much nor would there be bad ones.

Ty Smith was a two-time winning CHL dman of the year and was taken in a draft class with the likes of Dahlin Hughes Bouchard Dobson etc..

You're essentially casting him aside for a guy who has 12 NHL games this year and, in his first stint here, looked dreadful. If such small sample sizes determined a career then wed be celebrating the careers of guys like Mark Fayne and Eric Gelinas

I think the world of both Bahl and Smith. I just think youre letting your fandom get in the way of reality here

lol I think you need to read my posts again. I’m not casting him aside. I’ve also never been a fan of Bahl. Was probably lower on him than most.


All I’m saying is that the player who is playing better should be the one playing. That gives a team the best chance to win. That is the simple concept. Playing the players who are playing the best gives you the best chance to win. Bahl has been much better than Smith. Therefore, he should play over Smith. Smith has to earn his spot back and shouldn’t just be given that spot despite performance because of where he was drafted and how he did in juniors. Not even sure how you can argue this concept.

Some of your arguments are becoming pretty dumb. You just said I’m casting Smith aside. Read five seconds into the post you were responding to and you would see that’s not the case at all.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Jesper Bratt is one dimensional…I guess if you roll up skating, playmaking, shooting, transition play, etc. into one category and make the other category just height and weight, he’s one dimensional.

 

[Rydev]

Smith and Graves are not comparable style wise and I don’t think Smith is seen as any sort of replacement for Graves. When Fitz talked about Graves just after tradig for him, he said that they had wat he’d Graves and wanted him for awhile. Fitz loves his size and mobility for a big man. If anything , Muk , Bahl , Okhotiuk are seen as possible Graves replacements . Not Smith.

I meant replacing his minutes not his playstyle. Its been a long conversation so its easy for that to get lost

Strictly speaking on the LD2 behind Siegenthaler-Hamilton. No GM in their right mind is gonna pencil in an NHL rookie for the permanent 2LD spot in his sophomore season, before hes even played 30 games

 

[Nubmer6]

How great is this!!!

Would have been better if we still had Goose

 

[TrufleShufle]

Jesper Bratt is one dimensional…I guess if you roll up skating, playmaking, shooting, transition play, etc. into one category and make the other category just height and weight, he’s one dimensional.

I hate to break it to you, but he is one dimensional, the guy isn't wrong. I haven't seen him do a single thing impressive outside of hockey.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I meant replacing his minutes not his playstyle. Its been a long conversation so its easy for that to get lost

Strictly speaking on the LD2 behind Siegenthaler-Hamilton. No GM in their right mind is gonna pencil in an NHL rookie for the permanent 2LD spot in his sophomore season, before hes even played 30 games

Who said anyone was getting penciled into that spot? We also have Graves there so not sure why you keep talking about 2LD like it’s wide open right now and we have no one there.

 

[McDuffz88]

Whats not simple is any of this, first of all. Im not sure why you keep saying that. If any of this was simple, GMs and professional scouts wouldnt be paid much nor would there be bad ones.

Ty Smith was a two-time winning CHL dman of the year and was taken in a draft class with the likes of Dahlin Hughes Bouchard Dobson etc..

You're essentially casting him aside for a guy who has 12 NHL games this year and, in his first stint here, looked dreadful. If such small sample sizes determined a career then wed be celebrating the careers of guys like Mark Fayne and Eric Gelinas

I think the world of both Bahl and Smith. I just think youre letting your fandom get in the way of reality here

I think its the opposite. Your letting your fandom get in the way of reality. Want to hear what reality is? Reality is Bahl is playing better then Smith, thats not fandom thats a fact. I also don’t get what your point is that Ty Smith was drafted in the same draft as Dahlin, Hughes etc. What does that have to do with Ty Smith? Do you forget Zacha was also in the same draft as McDavid? So according to your logic Zacha must be good because he was in the same draft as McDavid right? Your grasping at straws. At this point who cares what titles Smith has won at the minor league level. We ain't the minor leagues & just because someone was good in the minors that doesn't equal success in the big leagues. To go to show how far your fandom goes you said above that Hughes/Mukhamadullin won't be in the NHL for 3 years (your words not mine). When in reality these players are 1 year away. Smith is the most redundant defenseman we have.

 

[Rydev]

lol I think you need to read my posts again. I’m not casting him aside. I’ve also never been a fan of Bahl. Was probably lower on him than most.


All I’m saying is that the player who is playing better should be the one playing. That gives a team the best chance to win. That is the simple concept. Playing the players who are playing the best gives you the best chance to win. Bahl has been much better than Smith. Therefore, he should play over Smith. Smith has to earn his spot back and shouldn’t just be given that spot despite performance because of where he was drafted and how he did in juniors. Not even sure how you can argue this concept.

Some of your arguments are becoming pretty dumb. You just said I’m casting Smith aside. Read five seconds into the post you were responding to and you would see that’s not the case at all.

I dont think I need to read them again lol, I hear you loud and clear - you're saying 12 NHL games this season by Bahl while Smith is in a slump is why Bahl should be considered higher than Smith; because hes playing better now (at the end of a lost season, so whatever thats worth)

So its just as I mentioned last post, you're creeping more toward Bahl based on a 12-game sample size then you are to Smith who was our best defensive prospect since Damon Severson and before Luke Hughes.

And lets temper it down a bit, theres literally nothing simple about any of this. And there is no 'dumb' argument to be made. No need to be rude.

 

[Rydev]

Who said anyone was getting penciled into that spot? We also have Graves there so not sure why you keep talking about 2LD like it’s wide open right now and we have no one there.

The discussion was for when Graves' deal expires.

Please dont play the game of forgetting what the conversation was now, we were having a plenty good debate and now you're acting up because I disagree with you.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I dont think I need to read them again lol, I hear you loud and clear - you're saying 12 NHL games this season by Bahl while Smith is in a slump is why Bahl should be considered higher than Smith; because hes playing better now (at the end of a lost season, so whatever thats worth)

So its just as I mentioned last post, you're creeping more toward Bahl based on a 12-game sample size then you are to Smith who was our best defensive prospect since Damon Severson and before Luke Hughes.

And lets temper it down a bit, theres literally nothing simple about any of this. And there is no 'dumb' argument to be made. No need to be rude.

Is the concept that the player that is playing better and should play over the one that isn’t not true and a pretty simple one? Do you disagree with that concept?

I’m saying that Bahl should play over Smith and has his spot. It’s now on Smith to win it back. You seem to be caught up on where Smith was drafted and what he did in juniors. That’s the only argument you’ve made and it isn’t a good reason him to play over someone who’s been better than him.

And what I said was dumb really was dumb. The statement you made was just so clearly wrong. You suggested I was saying something I very clearly to anyone who can read wasn’t.

There’s also some weird things you said in that response. What does it even mean when you say I’m creeping towards Bahl? Like what? And Bahl should be considered higher than Smith? Just some weird and confusing statements aren’t remotely close to anything I’ve said.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

The discussion was for when Graves' deal expires.

Please dont play the game of forgetting what the conversation was now, we were having a plenty good debate and now you're acting up because I disagree with you.

Umm no we weren’t we were very clearly talking about who’s higher in the pecking order right now and going into next season. I literally started this conversation with a post about going into next season.

I’m not acting up. It just seems like you have no decent arguments so your making weird claims about what I’ve said and statements that aren’t remotely close to true.

 

[Tao Jersey Jones]

It's good to see that they have fun together.

Happy 4/21 NJ!

Stay safe!

 

[Eggtimer]

Simply pit , I hope we look at moving Smith this off-season . If the return is not worth it , then he “should” be auditioning for a spot in the top 6 with everyone else , like everyone else. If he gets outplayed , then so be it. He loses his spot.
Only thing is , with his,limited foot speed amd defensive play , what spot is he really trying out for? We don’t need a D that’s only good at offence.

 

[MartyOwns]

How great is this!!!

i usually skip this part of the video

 

[Rydev]

Is the concept that the player that is playing better and should play over the one that isn’t not true and a pretty simple one? Do you disagree with that concept?

I’m saying that Bahl should play over Smith and has his spot. It’s now on Smith to win it back. You seem to be caught up on where Smith was drafted and what he did in juniors. That’s the only argument you’ve made and it isn’t a good reason him to play over someone who’s been better than him.

And what I said was dumb really was dumb. The statement you made was just so clearly wrong. You suggested I was saying something I very clearly to anyone who can read wasn’t.

There’s also some weird things you said in that response. What does it even mean when you say I’m creeping towards Bahl? Like what? And Bahl should be considered higher than Smith? Just some weird and confusing statements aren’t remotely close to anything I’ve said.

Umm no we weren’t we were very clearly talking about who’s higher in the pecking order right now and going into next season. I literally started this conversation with a post about going into next season.

I’m not acting up. It just seems like you have no decent arguments so your making weird claims about what I’ve said and statements that aren’t remotely close to true.

Ive been pretty partial about the entire conversation, leaning heavily toward neither said. And yes I do agree with you that Bahl has played better than Smith in his stint this season (after his first few games)

But I wont take it any further than that. I wouldnt have him above Smith for that reason nor because hes big and physical.

The entirety of the conversation has been about Ty's fit with the tram long-term. We have no idea right now if Graves will be around in two years or if Bahl and Ohkotyuk will win a spot in camp.

But as of today, 12 NHL games and his AHL career thus far doesn't put Bahl above Smith on the depth chart for our LD. Thatd be casting aside all of Smith's potential we saw in him just six months ago.

And yes I do feel thats what you've insinuated. And it could have been portrayed without the need to state things are 'simple', and pushing along the narrative that the concepts youve out forth are so black and white that.. how could anyone see it differently from you?

Perhaps Im misunderstanding you but you've come across as unwilling to give Ty the benefit of the doubt this season.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Ive been pretty partial about the entire conversation, leaning heavily toward neither said. And yes I do agree with you that Bahl has played better than Smith in his stint this season (after his first few games)

But I wont take it any further than that. I wouldnt have him above Smith for that reason nor because hes big and physical.

The entirety of the conversation has been about Ty's fit with the tram long-term. We have no idea right now if Graves will be around in two years or if Bahl and Ohkotyuk will win a spot in camp.

But as of today, 12 NHL games and his AHL career thus far doesn't put Bahl above Smith on the depth chart for our LD. Thatd be casting aside all of Smith's potential we saw in him just six months ago.

And yes I do feel thats what you've insinuated. And it could have been portrayed without the need to state things are 'simple', and pushing along the narrative that the concepts youve out forth are so black and white that.. how could anyone see it differently from you?

Perhaps Im misunderstanding you but you've come across as unwilling to give Ty the benefit of the doubt this season.

Man I’m not casting Smith or his potential aside at all. I’m just saying his poor play and Bahl strong recent play has lost him the 3LD spot. That doesn’t mean he lost it for good or that I think Bahl has more potential and will be the better player. That just means that Smith has to win that back by showing significantly improved play in camp and going forward.


And this entire conversation isn’t about Smith’s fit long term. I started the conversation and while that is part of it the conversation has also been a lot about where Smith starts on the roster and in the lineup going into next season. I think he has to earn a spot in the lineup after how poorly he played. Why shouldn’t he have to?

The only concept that I have said is simple is that for a team that wants to win, a player who is playing better should play over someone who hasn’t been playing as well. Do you disagree with that concept?

That is why I think if Bahl finishes strong and looks good in camp he should start as the 3LD. Because he played much better than Smith when he got his opportunity this season. Smith needs to show that he is better and that he gives us a better chance to win. I agree that he has good potential. But after how poorly he performed this season he needs to earn that spot back with his performance, not just have it given to him because of his potential.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

Was gone for 9 days on a cruise and now I am reading Bahl is playing better than Smith, when I left it didn't seem like too many posters were that high on Bahl. I guess he's had a few good games.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Was gone for 9 days on a cruise and now I am reading Bahl is playing better than Smith, when I left it didn't seem like too many posters were that high on Bahl. I guess he's had a few good games.

His first couple games were really poor but he has been very solid for the most part since. Settled in very nicely.

Smith has also been really bad for most of this season.

 

[Rydev]

Man I’m not casting Smith or his potential aside at all. I’m just saying his poor play and Bahl strong recent play has lost him the 3LD spot. That doesn’t mean he lost it for good or that I think Bahl has more potential and will be the better player. That just means that Smith has to win that back by showing significantly improved play in camp and going forward.


And this entire conversation isn’t about Smith’s fit long term. I started the conversation and while that is part of it the conversation has also been a lot about where Smith starts on the roster and in the lineup going into next season. I think he has to earn a spot in the lineup after how poorly he played. Why shouldn’t he have to?

The only concept that I have said is simple is that for a team that wants to win, a player who is playing better should play over someone who hasn’t been playing as well. Do you disagree with that concept?

That is why I think if Bahl finishes strong and looks good in camp he should start as the 3LD. Because he played much better than Smith when he got his opportunity this season. Smith needs to show that he is better and that he gives us a better chance to win. I agree that he has good potential. But after how poorly he performed this season he needs to earn that spot back with his performance, not just have it given to him because of his potential.

Well Ty wont get that chance to show he's better outside of camp, until the season starts. So how good does Ty have to be in order to be better than Bahl, if hes also succeeding?

Thats where I differ. I think, unless we are seriously considering moving Ty, if both play even in camp Ty will get the nod due to his potential being slightly higher (as we see it today, maybe thats not the case).

Ty hasn't spent any time in the A, had a great rookie season, and just went through a pretty serious sophomore slump. If we are to project any sort of season for Bahl, one would expect that he'd also have some struggles over the next two years and thus Ty may be further along in that steep development curve.

We will see come training camp but Im not sure it will give us enough information to make the case for either or being better (unless one just has a bad camp). And Bahl will always be more appealing than Smith with what we currently have. But again, this is where I think Fitzgerald may covet Ty more than Kevin; if at least to see if Ty can bounce back at seasons start and round into form.

Id give much more realistic chance of Bahl replacing Ty at 3LD during the season if he plays poorly then him starting there. If he starts there then you have to assume Ty was moved or is possibly fizzling out from a 1st round prospect's status, In which case his value is diminished even further.

If Ty is what the organization thought he was, he should be smart enough to adapt his game between now and then and play better than Bahl in camp.

 

[Ripshot 43]

It's good to see that they have fun together.

I love the decor. Specifically the bikini clad women spraying people with firemens hoses.

 

[MadDevil]

I think they've got the roles reversed. Jack is clearly the Maverick on this team.

 

[Guttersniped]

McLeod has racked up 4 assists in his last 3 games and 5 assists in his last 7 games. His 20 points in 72 games is pretty solid for 4th line production, although it's debatable that he actually plays 4th line minutes.

But his ability to go on these insanely long goal droughts is absurd. He's now at 28 straight games without a goal, which is the second time in his NHL career that he's went 28 or more games without a goal and he's also had three different goalless streaks of at least 25 games and four of at least 16 games.

He won't be able to break his own streak of 38 straight (Which were his first 38 NHL games he played) before this season ends, but he could just a few games into next season.

I'd like to say he'll get one more goal this year, but I didn't think he'd go to 25 games for the third time ever and he did.

He assisted on Boqvist’s goal last night but before that Johnsson-McLeod-Bastian line got two goals in the Vegas game (he got 1 assist). The whole lone had a great game.

In the Seattle game Bratt was on with McLeod-Johnsson for a goal and McLeod got an assist. The whole line was on the ice when he and Bastian got an assist on Severson’s goal in the 3rd. A strong game for the line as well.

Before that, it was Greer with McLeod/Bastian. (Johnsson didn’t play in the 1-3 loss the Avs or the 6-2 win over Arizona.) In the Coyotes game the Greer version of the line was on the ice for Bahl’s goal and the other two forwards got assists.

McLeod played with Greer and Johnsson against Dallas. And that line was pretty terrible that game. Greer did score on this line against Montreal, McLeod got an assist, they were better in that game. That version existed in those 2 games.

The Bastian version with Greer was better in it’s 2 games, yet the Johnsson/Bastian line with McLeod has been better than that (in it’s 3 games).

McLeod doesn’t bring much offense obviously but the bottom six line construction has been iffy at times and it has been in constant flux. He has done more with a better cast in the right mix. (I wouldn’t hold your breath for goals tho.)

In the Rags before this McLeod played half of the game with Vesey and Zacha (lol), then Vesey went down and it was some random lines. (And two goals against).

He was scratched in the Isles game before that. In the game against before Florida before that, the Vesey-McLeod-Bastian was awful.

Bastian was out after the Isles game, and missed the next 3 games, which was a break he probably needed badly. Bastian had 2 goals in 25 games between 2/1-4/3. Since coming back he’s had 4 points (1G) in 5 games.

Vesey had 1 assist in his last 22 games and was basically tormenting us with the promise of offense that mostly never materialized. Hell of a PK guy though, our best forward on it for his entire season.

This year McLeod got worse and unluckier on offense while not improving on defense 5v5, so it’s definitely been a disappointing season. I assumes he probably sticks around, but I don’t care a lot anymore. I definitely have some fatigue with him. He did play decreasing minutes with guys who didn’t score much at all though.

I didn’t even get into the 102 minutes with Geertsen and the 166 minutes with Kuok, his most common linemates after Vesey (306 minutes) and Bastian (386 minutes).

 

[Guttersniped]

It's good to see that they have fun together.

Hey everyone is hanging with ol’ Trade Bait Ty! (I assume that’s his nickname with the guys now.)