Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part VI

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

When Nico was drafted, pretty much everyone agreed he would end up around a 70-80 point center who is also a great 2-way player.

Nico is now a 70-80 point center, who is great defensively and is a great leader.

????

I am not sure where the "disappointment" lies, except in your own mind.

 

[Guttersniped]

Do you have any comps for that? Genuinely curious. Damon is in kind of a unique spot as a PMD that doesn't put up a ton of points.

One that I came up with is Ekholm. Not a perfect comparison because RHD is the more valuable position. As far as RHD go, Adam Larsson has been a $4 million man for almost a decade. Damon is better, but is he $3 million better?

Anyway, I know Ekholm and Larsson aren't perfect comps by any means, but again, not sure who to use here.

Wondering if you would take Damon back on the Ekholm deal. 4 x 6.25 with no clauses.

Yes, we'd have three long term contracts in addition to the #2 overall pick, but two of those three contracts would be tradable.

6.5m is the going rate for the 2nd tier guys, the most recent UFA deals have been around that.

Philly just gave two way more problematic defenseman 5m.

Lindholm is having a career renaissance in Boston, but he the bloom was off after his last few years in Anaheim, and he got 6.5m.

Severson is a top 4 RHD who can play on both special teams (he’s quite good PK, meh on PP). He’s a dynamic PMD who can play a lot of minutes. He’s turning 29 in August.

I don’t see him taking any kind of team friendly deal, if you want the AAV down then he gets 8 years.

(Sorry this is small print but I wanted it to fit.)

What got some of these numbers to where they are is 8 year terms. Weeger got a 8 year/6.25m that ends when he’s 37.

You likely aren’t going to be able to trade Severson anytime soon if you give him 8 years, so “just trade him!” is really iffy to me.

Nashville retained salary on Ekholm to move him and he’s only signed for 3 more years.

We can’t afford 6.5m anyway and no way he gets only 4 years with no clauses. Ekholm was a 3 year older LHD and a different kind of player.

I don’t know what Fitz’s plan for defense is but I don’t see how it’s Severson.

I believe he’s a big loss but that’s how the cap works, we made a choice to poor a ton of money into Hamilton and that makes the rest of the budget for defense tight.

Teams don’t spend ~30m on their defense, it’s a poor allocation of cap space.

Considering that there’s been zero said about re-signing Severson and how gloomy he’s been, the writing is kind of on the wall here and has been since the Marino trade.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Well thats certainly a lot easier said than done

Also who are you acquiring and with what assets? and that player likely will be on the third paid or gone in two seasons time

Youre better off just signing a FA unless the perfect deal comes along

Sure if there's a cheap option that's not gonna be dogwater, sign 'em in UFA.

But Fitz has repeatedly shown his ability to find defenseman at fair or better prices on the trade market. Graves, Siegs, Marino. Cap is gonna be tight this year, for a lot of folks, so there might be an opportunity.

 

[NHL Fanatik]

When Nico was drafted, pretty much everyone agreed he would end up around a 70-80 point center who is also a great 2-way player.

Nico is now a 70-80 point center, who is great defensively and is a great leader.

????

I am not sure where the "disappointment" lies, except in your own mind.

Hell, idet most expected 75-80+

So if anything Nico has risen above his realistic expectations; just not to the level of a near-generational 1st overall like some expect

 

[MasterofGrond]

The fact we didn't absolutely blow the Nico pick is enough for me. Devils were drafting like dogshit for about a f***ing decade, and we made the right choice between Nico and Nolan.

 

[Guttersniped]

With the way people react when Sevs/Graves/Hamilton make defensive mistakes, I guarantee Luke is going to be quite the polarizing topic for many on this board. I'm quite excited to see the absolute chaos when he has his first run of 3 or so classic Severson defensive games in a row.

Someone wanted Nemec up to replace Severson right now, as if a kid who turned 19 in February would make fewer mistakes in the NHL.

People undervalue PMD and undervalue Severson.

Severson does has his flaws, including being frustratingly soft around the net, and we can’t afford him.

People can be rightfully excited about our top defensive prospects.

All these things can be true.

 

[Unknown Caller]

The fact we didn't absolutely blow the Nico pick is enough for me. Devils were drafting like dogshit for about a f***ing decade, and we made the right choice between Nico and Nolan.

No doubt in my mind that Conte and Lamoriello would have taken Nolan Patrick.

 

[NHL Fanatik]

Sure if there's a cheap option that's not gonna be dogwater, sign 'em in UFA.

But Fitz has repeatedly shown his ability to find defenseman at fair or better prices on the trade market. Graves, Siegs, Marino. Cap is gonna be tight this year, for a lot of folks, so there might be an opportunity.

Those deals were only manageable because we were in a rebuild with cap space

The Siegenthaler deal was a shot in the dark thats not worked plenty of times before (Mueller for ex). Graves was had for a 2nd+Maltsev which today with our height in the standings would be a 1st or more (not worth for a 2-year gapstop). And Marino was just Pittsburgh being desperate as shit to dump cap; obviously-tilted deals from day one are not something you can just replicate, theyre very situational

We likely arent going to get another top-4 dman whos got a cheap contract that doesnt burn us assets wise. We cant be taking chances on another Siegenthaler either, otherwise why wouldnt I just start Bahl

A FA #4-5 for a 2-3 year deal that you move the final year of is the most realistic scenario

 

[Jersey Fresh]

No doubt in my mind that Conte and Lamoriello would have taken Nolan Patrick.

As I recall, Jim preferred Patrick too

@JimEIV correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[NHL Fanatik]

As I recall, Jim preferred Patrick too

@JimEIV correct me if I’m wrong.

To be completely fair to Patrick, even though I think he and Ty Smith and Will Butcher were all a decade too late, if he didnt have a migraine issue hed be a solid NHL player today I think. Probably a top-9 guy

 

[Guttersniped]

BEAUTIFUL.

JUST BEAUTIFUL.

Nico is a top tier hugger.

And also

Remember when a forward’s defensive play suddenly mattered, for like 5 minutes, to cope with Jack Hughes distressingly good counting stats?

 

[Bleedred]

I like the last two most recent 4th line incarnations.

The guys who are replacing the guys with wood in their name have been way better than the guys they're replacing, who are out.

More than just significantly better, especially in Schmid's case.

 

[Clam Jensen]

At the end of the day, no player is perfect. They all have warts, big and small. All I care about is that this teams current and future is so ridiculously bright and I haven’t been this hopeful about their long-term outlook in over a decade.

 

[Guttersniped]

Those deals were only manageable because we were in a rebuild with cap space

The Siegenthaler deal was a shot in the dark thats not worked plenty of times before (Mueller for ex). Graves was had for a 2nd+Maltsev which today with our height in the standings would be a 1st or more (not worth for a 2-year gapstop). And Marino was just Pittsburgh being desperate as shit to dump cap; obviously-tilted deals from day one are not something you can just replicate, theyre very situational

We likely arent going to get another top-4 dman whos got a cheap contract that doesnt burn us assets wise. We cant be taking chances on another Siegenthaler either, otherwise why wouldnt I just start Bahl

A FA #4-5 for a 2-3 year deal that you move the final year of is the most realistic scenario

Not everything is an equal shot in the dark, and when multiple moves all work out, maybe they aren’t just lucky shots in the dark. Pro scouting, analytics and smart team building are all real things.

Fitz hasn’t made any bad moves on the defensive rebuild so future ones get the benefit of the doubt from me.

 

[Zippy316]

6.5m is the going rate for the 2nd tier guys, the most recent UFA deals have been around that.

Philly just gave two way more problematic defenseman 5m.

Lindholm is having a career renaissance in Boston, but he the bloom was off after his last few years in Anaheim, and he got 6.5m.

Severson is a top 4 RHD who can play on both special teams (he’s quite good PK, meh on PP). He’s a dynamic PMD who can play a lot of minutes. He’s turning 29 in August.

I don’t see him taking any kind of team friendly deal, if you want the AAV down then he gets 8 years.

(Sorry this is small print but I wanted it to fit.)

View attachment 672786

What got some of these numbers to where they are is 8 year terms. Weeger got a 8 year/6.25m that ends when he’s 37.

You likely aren’t going to be able to trade Severson anytime soon if you give him 8 years, so “just trade him!” is really iffy to me.

Nashville retained salary on Ekholm to move him and he’s only signed for 3 more years.

We can’t afford 6.5m anyway and no way he gets only 4 years with no clauses. Ekholm was a 3 year older LHD and a different kind of player.

I don’t know what Fitz’s plan for defense is but I don’t see how it’s Severson.

I believe he’s a big loss but that’s how the cap works, we made a choice to poor a ton of money into Hamilton and that makes the rest of the budget for defense tight.

Teams don’t spend ~30m on their defense, it’s a poor allocation of cap space.

Considering that there’s been zero said about re-signing Severson and how gloomy he’s been, the writing is kind of on the wall here and has been since the Marino trade.

He’s assuredly gone. He’s an absolute luxury to have as a 3RD, but I don’t think I’d want to pay him to be in that tier you mentioned. Probably for the best Fitzgerald went the route he did.

I do wonder if Fitzgerald does Severson a solid and lets him explore the market prior to July 1st. Maybe we could get an asset out of a team that would want the option to sign him to an 8 year deal, if that is allowed. Probably doesn’t do that in the Eastern Conference, but if Severson has a western team lined up, who cares.

 

[Better Call Sal]

At the end of the day, no player is perfect. They all have warts, big and small. All I care about is that this teams current and future is so ridiculously bright and I haven’t been this hopeful about their long-term outlook in over a decade.

Amen, my friend. I have a buddy who drives me up the wall because his constant focus is on Dougie being a one-trick pony for his salary and Palat being overpaid for his production. No matter what happens in the game, this is what he will constantly single out.

It's how UFA tends to work for one, but to overlook what they both bring on a nightly basis is just absurd. What Dougie has done offensively this season is obscene. Something we've never really seen in this organization's history. And while many of us felt the Palat deal was a year too long and a million or so too rich, we know what his value is going to be when the time comes.

I just can't wrap my head around those who choose to focus on the ugly pixel in the beautiful picture.

 

[Bleedred]

I definitely wanted Nolan Patrick that year, but it became clear pretty quickly into that season that we took the right guy.

I was always Team Jack Hughes though. Still remember laughing at all the ''Plays against men'' and wide turns stuff.

And didn't Jack have a not great world championships that year? I don't remember cause I didn't watch any of it, but I remember it got pumped even more with people claiming he looked terrible the first time he played with and against men, which was that tournament lol. Which was literally the month of his 18th birthday.

 

[NHL Fanatik]

Not everything is an equal shot in the dark, and when multiple moves all work out, maybe they aren’t just lucky shots in the dark. Pro scouting, analytics and smart team building are all real things.

Fitz hasn’t made any bad moves on the defensive rebuild so future ones get the benefit of the doubt from me.

I only said the Siegenthaler move was a shot in the dark; Graves and Marino were established already. And Siegenthaler panning out is one in every 10-20 moves like that (Mirco Mueller)

I also wasnt advocating Fitz would make a bad move. Im saying he wont have the option available to him for a top-4 dman cheaper than a UFA equivalent while not spending a 1st+ for a two year rental

Itll likely make the most sense to offer Graves or an equivalent dman 1.25-1.5m above his current 3.125m deal for 2-3 years term and likely move them in the final year.

 

[JimEIV]

He’s also first in plus minus and first in the standings. My guess is the overwhelming majority fo fans would take that outcome over better scoring on a worse team and a player who can’t properly play the role needed.

Yeah ..who would want a Norris and Stanley Cup. Silly me.

 

[Azathoth]

Yeah ..who would want a Norris and Stanley Cup. Silly me.

I shouldn't take the bait, but do you honestly think swapping Nico with Makar would have made this team cup contenders the last few seasons?

I also don't think its outlandish to think Nico will have at least one Selke in the next few years and with the way this team is constructed we should be contending for the cup consistently for the next decade.

 

[Guttersniped]

Amen, my friend. I have a buddy who drives me up the wall because his constant focus is on Dougie being a one-trick pony for his salary and Palat being overpaid for his production. No matter what happens in the game, this is what he will constantly single out.

It's how UFA tends to work for one, but to overlook what they both bring on a nightly basis is just absurd. What Dougie has done offensively this season is obscene. Something we've never really seen in this organization's history. And while many of us felt the Palat deal was a year too long and a million or so too rich, we know what his value is going to be when the time comes.

I just can't wrap my head around those who choose to focus on the ugly pixel in the beautiful picture.

We aren’t where we are without Dougie, it’s nearly impossible to be a top team without getting major production from your defense.

Forwards can’t carry the offense.

 

[glenwo2]

31 was the demarcation of the top 20 goal scores in 2012....how the f*** is pointing that out bad faith or slieght of hand?

You people are f***ing insane.

You know what?

The world is wrong and you're right.

I guess that's what you're saying.

 

[JimEIV]

55th in the league P/60 in his prime from a #1 overall. Color me unimpressed.

 

[NHL Fanatik]

Yeah ..who would want a Norris and Stanley Cup. Silly me.

Are we really ignorant of the butterfly effect here?

Yeah, and who wouldnt want the second greatest player ever and a Stanley Cup? Oh... you mean we wouldnt have drafted Marty or possibly anyone else thereafter? No Stevens arbitration? Possibly even NO LOU??

And yet we could have maybe had five Cups instead of three. But just like Grumpy, I know theres a warm heart deep down that loves Nico

 

[Guttersniped]

Yeah ..who would want a Norris and Stanley Cup. Silly me.

Are you still bitching about not getting Makar?

He was drafted 4th my man. This is an imaginary problem only in your head.

You’re the guy that wanted to trade Nico for winger. Oh, what great heights would we be with Laine right now.

You started a thread on Main Trade Board (last year I think?) trying to trade Nico for a winger and it was just a parade of people pointing out how nonsensical a move that is.

You either won’t admit the obvious value of Nico or centers (to win a dumb internet debate) or you don’t know the value of him or centers.

Neither is a good look.

You can try to turn this into Makar vs Nico, in hopes of gaining a foothold in your meaningless internet debate over this, but you’re wrong about Nico. That’s the fundamental truth at the heart of this.

Makar vs Nico, Pettersson vs Nico, sobbing over other 1OAs… that’s just handwaving.