Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

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glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
Oct 18, 2008
52,506
25,005
New Jersey(No Fanz!)
You want “proof” that Jesper Bratt is a better skater than Dawson Mercer?

Have you considered watching them both skate?
I just provided actual video of Bratt skating.

No f'n way Mercer (as much as I like the kid) is as good a skater.

 
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guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,085
7,648
There is not one stat that is a be all end all. However, all stats when used properly, help to paint a picture about how good a player is. That much is basically indeniable.
Combining different stats, and putting them in context, paints a picture. Yes. I don't think anyone really denies this?

But individual stats or stat types can be debated as to their usefulness. The advanced stats that most people cite these days is xG. I'm not sold on its ability to truly capture what is most important to measuring performance. It's a perfectly viable debate to have. Replying to people who challenge its usefulness with "it's just the facts!" is not a good argument and contradicts your point about using stats properly.

People used to think plus/minus was one of the best individual indicators of a player's value. But no one cites it in that manner anymore outside of very specific context. Why is that?
 

My3Sons

Nobody told me there'd be days like these...
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So the argument is what exactly…Mercer MIGHT become Bratt so we should trade Bratt? That’s some circular logic which can be blindly applied to anyone younger than Bratt, Holtz might become Bratt too in theory but it’s far less likely to happen than not.
it's the sort of faulty logic that has some thinking that someday a younger poster might become a better poster than me despite all I've accomplished in my time here. Some self deluded people just have a completely inflated sense of their own relative unimportance.
 

Hisch13r

Registered User
May 16, 2012
34,940
35,510
NJ
I decided to listen to the latest NRD podcast and what the f*** is he smoking. Mattias Ekholm?? lol Yeah we'd definitely be targeting the guy who turns 33 in a few months and is making 6.25 through 2026
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,085
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I fail to see how Mercer is a "clone" of Bratt.

That's like saying Nico is a clone of Hughes. Hey they both play center!

LOL
 
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StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
11,079
27,991
Brooklyn, NY
I was going to take the week off from NHL hockey but then Horvat was traded and the amount of negativity from Devils fans on social media and the blogosphere really concerned me.

Look, I understand that many NJ fans are frustrated after a tough decade, to say the least. But the prevailing negativity among Devils fans to current management is very concerning to me. It wasn't so many months ago that Tom Fitzgerald enjoyed an absolutely outstanding off-season -- addressing three major needs with Marino, Vanecek and Palat while giving up absolutely nothing of value -- and Devils fans were calling for his head. The fact that Fitzgerald wasn't willing to mortgage the team's long-term future for a big name who didn't fill a major organizational need was a strength of the Devils off-season, not a weakness.

It's now just January and the Devils have the third best record in the entire NHL, a top-three prospect pool in the entire NHL, the brightest young star in the NHL in Jack Hughes -- who is barely legal to drink and a legit MVP candidate already, and one of the youngest and most exciting teams in the NHL.

And yet, many fans are beside themselves because the Islanders got Bo Horvat?

Here are some salient points which should make us all cool down a bit around the all-star break.

1) With all due respect to Lou Lamoriello -- who it baffles me how he garners so much vitriol among groupthink fans -- he's making the right move at the right time for the right team. Look -- he gave up the Islanders runaway top prospect in Aatu Raty and yet another first-round pick in the best draft class in nearly a decade, plus a solid and versatile winger in Beauvillier -- all to get Bo Horvat. But the Isles are an old team without much of a prospect pool and maybe a year or two left in their chances for a playoff run. Lamoriello is also the oldest GM in the NHL and wants to win now. He just improved his team's chances to win this year, and if he can re-sign Horvat the deal is a win for the Islanders. Did he sell out the team's long-term future? Sure, but it's not as if the logic needs further explanation.


2) What Lamoriello did -- unintentionally -- for the Devils, was keep Bo Horvat out of Carolina. I can't tell you how much I've seen written by Devils fans about the distance between the Devils and Rangers (currently 6 points) in the battle for 2nd place in the Metropolitan Division. I don't get the obsession with this, because I'm more concerned with the even smaller gap (4 points) between the Devils and 1st-place Carolina Hurricanes. Tom Fitzgerald is a very good GM, and as such I think he's more concerned with what it takes to be the best team in the NHL than what it takes to be "better than the higher profile team across the river".

Carolina is a terrific, young team with one glaring weakness -- they aren't going far in the playoffs with Sebastian Aho as their only top 6 center. Because you can look at every roster on every cup winner for the past decade and they are all extremely talented with two top centers.

What the Bo Horvat trade does not do is drive the price up on an interior, scoring winger like Timo Meier. What the Bo Horvat trade does do is astronomically jack up the price on the one remaining top center who could be had in the current trade market, which is Ryan O'Reilly. Top 6 centers and top-pairing defenders always cost more than wingers at the deadline. Always. And I think we can guarantee now that the ability of Carolina to get O'Reilly -- both now with his price higher and the competition fiercer (Boston, Rangers, Minnesota, Colorado, Vegas, Calgary all likely in the chase) -- is severely hampered. Because you're not winning a Stanley Cup with Jesperi Kotkaniemi as your 2C, you're just not.


3) As they stand right now, the Devils could conceivably make a deep playoff run. But there is no doubt a player like Timo Meier would make them a lot better. The Devils are an elite team at scoring off the rush, but they are still below average when it comes to Meier's bread and butter, which is scoring greasy goals off rebounds, deflections, net-front havoc and power plays down low. Meier is also a great shooter, which the Devils could use.

However, if the cost of acquiring Meier is prohibitive, Tom Fitzgerald has to think about the long-term future of the team over the benefits of the right now. This is to say that Luke Hughes, Simon Nemec and Dawson Mercer are not on the table, nor should they be. These incredible young talents should all be homegrown, core pieces for the next decade. The Devils still have more than enough -- because Fitzgerald was wise enough not to make a panic trade for a Fiala or DeBrincat -- to outbid any team which does not make a drunken sailor offer to San Jose. The Sharks will certainly have great interest in Alexander Holtz, a good friend and former linemate of their top prospect William Eklund.

The Sharks are desperate for prospects at LD -- and the Devils have the strongest group of LD prospects not only in the NHL right now, but maybe in the past decade for any team. San Jose's top LD prospect is currently Artemi Kniazev, who would have no chance of cracking the current Devils top 7, which I'd rank as Hughes/Mukhamadullin/Okhotiuk/Bahl/Vilen/Orlov/Misyul. As much as (certain) Devils fans bitch about Okhotiuk/Bahl as they are getting their feet wet in the NHL and making rookie mistakes as rookies, either one immediately steps into the Sharks line-up and has every chance to be a long term piece of that club going forward. Mukhamadullin would immediately become that team's unchallenged #2 overall prospect behind only Eklund.

As Devils fans, we naturally obsess over our own team, but the fact remains NJ probably fits San Jose trade-wise better than any other team.


4) The New Jersey Devils are in a tremendously bright position to be an NHL contender both now and going forward for the next decade. The last thing Tom Fitzgerald should be doing is panicking. The last thing Devils fans should be doing is panicking. Fitzgerald is certainly going to try to improve the team at the trade deadline, and Timo Meier is obviously a target. But it's doubtful Bo Horvat every truly was -- the Devils have ridiculous wealth at 1/2C with Hughes/Hischier going forward. I'm guessing Fitzgerald was just tracking the market on Horvat, and probably secretly hoping Carolina didn't land him.

As for me, I'm just going to enjoy the all-star break and take a break from the NHL to watch some prospects and 2023 draft-eligibles. And I think we should all be happy with the position the Devils are in right now. It's been a fun year, and it's a harbinger of good times to come in the future.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
14,003
14,920
Again, this is the same poster who last year was advocating trading Hischier because Mercer had supplanted him. Like, this guy would be regarded the same as Jim or any of our other resident 'I just say shit' people because he just says shit and then immediately jumps into a seven-dimensional defense that involves five unrelated things. He just changes his name every month so no one knows who he is.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
72,971
47,100
PA
I was going to take the week off from NHL hockey but then Horvat was traded and the amount of negativity from Devils fans on social media and the blogosphere really concerned me.

Look, I understand that many NJ fans are frustrated after a tough decade, to say the least. But the prevailing negativity among Devils fans to current management is very concerning to me. It wasn't so many months ago that Tom Fitzgerald enjoyed an absolutely outstanding off-season -- addressing three major needs with Marino, Vanecek and Palat while giving up absolutely nothing of value -- and Devils fans were calling for his head. The fact that Fitzgerald wasn't willing to mortgage the team's long-term future for a big name who didn't fill a major organizational need was a strength of the Devils off-season, not a weakness.

It's now just January and the Devils have the third best record in the entire NHL, a top-three prospect pool in the entire NHL, the brightest young star in the NHL in Jack Hughes -- who is barely legal to drink and a legit MVP candidate already, and one of the youngest and most exciting teams in the NHL.

And yet, many fans are beside themselves because the Islanders got Bo Horvat?

Here are some salient points which should make us all cool down a bit around the all-star break.

1) With all due respect to Lou Lamoriello -- who it baffles me how he garners so much vitriol among groupthink fans -- he's making the right move at the right time for the right team. Look -- he gave up the Islanders runaway top prospect in Aatu Raty and yet another first-round pick in the best draft class in nearly a decade, plus a solid and versatile winger in Beauvillier -- all to get Bo Horvat. But the Isles are an old team without much of a prospect pool and maybe a year or two left in their chances for a playoff run. Lamoriello is also the oldest GM in the NHL and wants to win now. He just improved his team's chances to win this year, and if he can re-sign Horvat the deal is a win for the Islanders. Did he sell out the team's long-term future? Sure, but it's not as if the logic needs further explanation.


2) What Lamoriello did -- unintentionally -- for the Devils, was keep Bo Horvat out of Carolina. I can't tell you how much I've seen written by Devils fans about the distance between the Devils and Rangers (currently 6 points) in the battle for 2nd place in the Metropolitan Division. I don't get the obsession with this, because I'm more concerned with the even smaller gap (4 points) between the Devils and 1st-place Carolina Hurricanes. Tom Fitzgerald is a very good GM, and as such I think he's more concerned with what it takes to be the best team in the NHL than what it takes to be "better than the higher profile team across the river".

Carolina is a terrific, young team with one glaring weakness -- they aren't going far in the playoffs with Sebastian Aho as their only top 6 center. Because you can look at every roster on every cup winner for the past decade and they are all extremely talented with two top centers.

What the Bo Horvat trade does not do is drive the price up on an interior, scoring winger like Timo Meier. What the Bo Horvat trade does do is astronomically jack up the price on the one remaining top center who could be had in the current trade market, which is Ryan O'Reilly. Top 6 centers and top-pairing defenders always cost more than wingers at the deadline. Always. And I think we can guarantee now that the ability of Carolina to get O'Reilly -- both now with his price higher and the competition fiercer (Boston, Rangers, Minnesota, Colorado, Vegas, Calgary all likely in the chase) -- is severely hampered. Because you're not winning a Stanley Cup with Jesperi Kotkaniemi as your 2C, you're just not.


3) As they stand right now, the Devils could conceivably make a deep playoff run. But there is no doubt a player like Timo Meier would make them a lot better. The Devils are an elite team at scoring off the rush, but they are still below average when it comes to Meier's bread and butter, which is scoring greasy goals off rebounds, deflections, net-front havoc and power plays down low. Meier is also a great shooter, which the Devils could use.

However, if the cost of acquiring Meier is prohibitive, Tom Fitzgerald has to think about the long-term future of the team over the benefits of the right now. This is to say that Luke Hughes, Simon Nemec and Dawson Mercer are not on the table, nor should they be. These incredible young talents should all be homegrown, core pieces for the next decade. The Devils still have more than enough -- because Fitzgerald was wise enough not to make a panic trade for a Fiala or DeBrincat -- to outbid any team which does not make a drunken sailor offer to San Jose. The Sharks will certainly have great interest in Alexander Holtz, a good friend and former linemate of their top prospect William Eklund.

The Sharks are desperate for prospects at LD -- and the Devils have the strongest group of LD prospects not only in the NHL right now, but maybe in the past decade for any team. San Jose's top LD prospect is currently Artemi Kniazev, who would have no chance of cracking the current Devils top 7, which I'd rank as Hughes/Mukhamadullin/Okhotiuk/Bahl/Vilen/Orlov/Misyul. As much as (certain) Devils fans bitch about Okhotiuk/Bahl as they are getting their feet wet in the NHL and making rookie mistakes as rookies, either one immediately steps into the Sharks line-up and has every chance to be a long term piece of that club going forward. Mukhamadullin would immediately become that team's unchallenged #2 overall prospect behind only Eklund.

As Devils fans, we naturally obsess over our own team, but the fact remains NJ probably fits San Jose trade-wise better than any other team.


4) The New Jersey Devils are in a tremendously bright position to be an NHL contender both now and going forward for the next decade. The last thing Tom Fitzgerald should be doing is panicking. The last thing Devils fans should be doing is panicking. Fitzgerald is certainly going to try to improve the team at the trade deadline, and Timo Meier is obviously a target. But it's doubtful Bo Horvat every truly was -- the Devils have ridiculous wealth at 1/2C with Hughes/Hischier going forward. I'm guessing Fitzgerald was just tracking the market on Horvat, and probably secretly hoping Carolina didn't land him.

As for me, I'm just going to enjoy the all-star break and take a break from the NHL to watch some prospects and 2023 draft-eligibles. And I think we should all be happy with the position the Devils are in right now. It's been a fun year, and it's a harbinger of good times to come in the future.

I have not seen literally one single poster "beside themselves" that the Islanders got Bo Horvat lol are we reading the same board?

Trading all that for a 2nd line center (albeit a very good one) and then giving him $8+ million/year is a bad move for the Isles
 

Hisch13r

Registered User
May 16, 2012
34,940
35,510
NJ
I have not seen literally one single poster "beside themselves" that the Islanders got Bo Horvat lol are we reading the same board?

Trading all that for a 2nd line center (albeit a very good one) and then giving him $8+ million/year is a bad move for the Isles

The majority think it's hilarious.
 
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NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,475
33,954
Look anyone who’s new that immediately gets into it with the board might be a returning poster but A) it gets into personal attacks when we start blindly throwing around accusations and innuendos, B) more than one person here dislikes Jesper Bratt as much as people want to believe it’s one poster with ten accounts and C) it’s kinda dense to have the hill you die on be this board undervalues Mercer and wants to trade him cause they don’t think he’s got Bratt potential offensively. I mean Mercer is probably one of one current players who I haven’t seen any kind of extended ripping on or throwing into trade proposals here, you would think someone who’s been here would pick a different fight than that.
 
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Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
14,003
14,920
I have not seen literally one single poster "beside themselves" that the Islanders got Bo Horvat lol are we reading the same board?

Trading all that for a 2nd line center (albeit a very good one) and then giving him $8+ million/year is a bad move for the Isles

We're not, STI just reads Twitter and thinks it's here. Twitter is not here. Tired of people thinking that it is, tired of people quote tweeting their own tweets (hilarious photoshops excepted), etc. A board like this with ~50 regular posters is an idiosyncratic place and somewhere like here can develop totally different opinions on players than e.g. Reddit or Twitter or AATJ or anywhere else where fans congregate.
 

MachoDiablo

Registered User
Mar 12, 2012
1,388
2,055
Jersey City
Jesper Bratts skating improved the most when he was skating in the offseason with our then-Newly drafted Prospect Holtz

That offseason he came in faster stronger and better in every area of his skating

Players cant improve their skating between 21-24? Lmfao right, sure thing boss
I2NbLgo.gif
 

My3Sons

Nobody told me there'd be days like these...
Sponsor
Look anyone who’s new that immediately gets into it with the board might be a returning poster but A) it gets into personal attacks when we start blindly throwing around accusations and innuendos, B) more than one person here dislikes Jesper Bratt as much as people want to believe it’s one poster with ten accounts and C) it’s kinda dense to have the hill you die on be this board undervalues Mercer and wants to trade him
cause they don’t think he’s got Bratt potential offensively. I mean Mercer is probably one of one current players who I haven’t seen any kind of extended ripping on or throwing into trade proposals here, you would think someone who’s been here would pick a different fight than that.
If NJ was playing actual games this week the discussion would be much better. Instead of comparing Bratt to Mercer we'd be hurling epithets at Graves and a few at Haula and McLeod and Wood. It would be discourse at a much higher level.
 

forceten

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jul 15, 2004
5,238
6,222
Raleigh, NC
If NJ was playing actual games this week the discussion would be much better. Instead of comparing Bratt to Mercer we'd be hurling epithets at Graves and a few at Haula and McLeod and Wood. It would be discourse at a much higher level.

We'd be invariably benching {player a} and wondering why he is playing instead of {player b and c}
 

MartyOwns

thank you shero
Apr 1, 2007
24,668
19,267
We're not, STI just reads Twitter and thinks it's here. Twitter is not here. Tired of people thinking that it is, tired of people quote tweeting their own tweets (hilarious photoshops excepted), etc. A board like this with ~50 regular posters is an idiosyncratic place and somewhere like here can develop totally different opinions on players than e.g. Reddit or Twitter or AATJ or anywhere else where fans congregate.
he literally said on social media and blogs, not here.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
14,003
14,920
he literally said on social media and blogs, not here.

Why would someone write 5000 words about shit happening elsewhere, commenting on that stuff? Blogs are free and Twitter is free, those items being talked about there can be written about there. I comment sometimes on AATJ, I don't drag their arguments in here to talk about.
 
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