Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[SteveCangialosi123]

Oh, idk. Maybe because he's big and fast and a much more valuable quantity than Johnsson. Probably for the same reason GMs are going to waaaayyyyy overpay him next year.

I don’t know why a rebuilding team would want a shitty 27 year old on an expiring contract

 

[My3Sons]

Oh, idk. Maybe because he's big and fast and a much more valuable quantity than Johnsson. Probably for the same reason GMs are going to waaaayyyyy overpay him next year.

If the goal scoring picks up again sure but for a while now Wood has been pretty meh. I’m not sure a GM overpays for a guy like him if he is only scoring in the 12-14 goal range with about 30 points or less.

 

[Bleedred]

I don’t know why a rebuilding team would want a shitty 27 year old on an expiring contract

It's possible they'd take him as a body to play out stretch, but I don't think they'd be all that interested either.

Kind of like when Dallas took back an old Randy McKay, with absolutely nothing left in the tank and on an expiring contract, in the Nieuwendyk/Langenbrunner for Arnott trade.

 

[JimEIV]

You're leaving out the fact that the goalie could be the one making saves to keep you ahead. It's not like the other team isn't taking shots.

You still need the goals to be ahead. Doesn't work any other way.

If you are scoring average or below average doesn't it stand to reason that you will tied or trailing more often?

 

[My3Sons]

You still need the goals to be ahead. Doesn't work any other way.

If you are scoring average or below average doesn't it stand to reason that you will tied or trailing more often?

No question better amd more timely scoring relative to last season has made a difference. Better goaltending can also be making a difference. People on both sides of the discussion can be right. NJ has certainly done a better job scoring clutch goals as the season has gone on as well. If you lose in regulation by two or three what’s the difference but scoring the last second goal to get you to OT likely only happens if your goalie helps. Like the Vitek against Dallas. I don’t read this discussion as two mutually exclusive things.

 

[Nubmer6]

No question better amd more timely scoring relative to last season has made a difference. Better goaltending can also be making a difference. People on both sides of the discussion can be right. NJ has certainly done a better job scoring clutch goals as the season has gone on as well. If you lose in regulation by two or three what’s the difference but scoring the last second goal to get you to OT likely only happens if your goalie helps. Like the Vitek against Dallas. I don’t read this discussion as two mutually exclusive things.

But... HFDevils

 

[NjDevsRR]

View attachment 643626View attachment 643627

Who scored today?

 

[Triumph]

History of the franchise? You think an era of 2.62 Goals per game is in anyway comparable to a league with 3.15 goals per game? 249 goals for led the Eastern Conference in 2002, it's not even NHL average (255) today.

Goalies had to give up less than 2&1/2 then. Binnington has 18 wins in 38 starts giving up 3.28 goals per game....that would've been impossible 15 years ago...hell 10 years ago too. It's not remotely close.

You're just goalpost shifting. Goaltending has always been important in this franchise's history - from Sean Burke's arrival coinciding with the team massively improving to his being bad coinciding with the team being back in the muck, Brodeur's arrival coinciding with the team's leap from average team to contender, Schneider's decline coinciding with the team falling apart, Blackwood's ascent dragging the worst version of the team to mediocrity, only to have him fall apart as the franchise improved outside the net. The goal-scoring environment has nothing to do with it. It's hard to be bad when your team gets great goaltending (apart from 2015 and 2016), it's hard to be good when your team gets awful goaltending (2013, 2021, 2022).

 

[JimEIV]

No question better amd more timely scoring relative to last season has made a difference. Better goaltending can also be making a difference. People on both sides of the discussion can be right. NJ has certainly done a better job scoring clutch goals as the season has gone on as well. If you lose in regulation by two or three what’s the difference but scoring the last second goal to get you to OT likely only happens if your goalie helps. Like the Vitek against Dallas. I don’t read this discussion as two mutually exclusive things.

Vitek was down 2-0 on 18 shots after the first period. They trailed from 10:50 of the first period to 3:55 of the second period in the Dallas game. They trailed for a little more than 13 minutes of 60+ minute game. With Vitek saving 89% of the shots in the first period...that's good goaltending?

Jack getting the 3rd goal of the game early in the second and Wood following up shortly after was way important than 89% saves.

 

[Guttersniped]

Goaltending has gotten worse in the last two seasons, likely from the addition of two teams and the effects of COVID on goalie development/ available playing time.

It was due for a corse correction anyhow. We went through a crazy Golden Age of sorts in goaltending from ~2010-17. Lots of people resented it because of lack of scoring (hence the proposals for bigger nets, smaller goalie equipment, etc).

This led to my one of my favorite articles to dig up, from October 2015.

The NHL's 100 point scorers are gone and probably won't be back

The NHL scoring champion managed to record just 87 points in 2014-15. Things probably won't be much different this season in a league where defense and goaltending is king.

www.cbssports.com

Oh no, they won’t be back?

Ok, nevermind.


It’s still an advantage to have a healthy above average (or just a couple of average) NHL goalies. If someone wants to be willfully obtuse over this basic reality there’s not much you can do.

You also don’t technically have to go “back to the 80’s” because the high scoring NHL didn’t go away until later in the 1990s.

SV%*/GAA in Year (Goals)
.906/ 2.94 in 2022-23 (3.15)
.907/ 2.92 in 2021-22 (3.14)
.908/ 2.74 in 2020-21 (2.94)
.910/ 2.82 in 2019-20 (3.02)
.910/ 2.81 in 2018-19 (3.01)
.912/ 2.78 in 2017-18 (2.97)
.913/ 2.59 in 2016-17 (2.77)
.915/ 2.51 in 2015-16 (2.71)
.915/ 2.52 in 2014-15 (2.73)
.914/ 2.56 in 2013-14 (2.74)
.912/ 2.54 in 2012-13 (2.72)
.914/ 2.54 in 2011-12 (2.73)
.913/ 2.61 in 2010-11 (2.79)
.911/ 2.66 in 2009-10 (2.84)
.908/ 2.73 in 2008-09 (2.91)
.909/ 2.61 in 2007-08 (2.78)
.905/ 2.77 in 2006-07 (2.95)
.901/ 2.92 in 2005-06 (3.08)
.911/ 2.46 in 2003-04 (2.57)
.909/ 2.54 in 2002-03 (2.65)
.908/ 2.51 in 2002-01 (2.62)
.903/ 2.65 in 2001-02 (2.76)
.904/ 2.64 in 1999-00 (2.75)
.908/ 2.56 in 1998-99 (2.63)
.906/ 2.53 in 1997-98 (2.64)
.905/2.80 in 1996-97 (2.92)
.898/ 3.04 in 1995-96 (3.14)
.901/ 2.89 in 1994-95 (2.99)
.895/ 3.14 in 1993-94 (3.24)
.885/ 3.53 in 1992-93 (3.63)
.888/ 3.37 in 1991-92 (3.48)
.886/ 3.35 in 1990-91 (3.46)

*not including Empty Net Goals

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

The NHL's 100 point scorers are gone and probably won't be back

The NHL scoring champion managed to record just 87 points in 2014-15. Things probably won't be much different this season in a league where defense and goaltending is king.

www.cbssports.com

The Surge: The NHL's influx of 100-point scorers and why it's unlikely to end anytime soon

Today’s goalies are probably getting real tired of the red light behind them constantly flashing; constantly flashing at the hands of the same players night after night. The goals keep coming — 6.12 per game for those counting at home, the highest mark since 2005-06 — and it’s because...

theathletic.com

 

[JimEIV]

You're just goalpost shifting. Goaltending has always been important in this franchise's history - from Sean Burke's arrival coinciding with the team massively improving to his being bad coinciding with the team being back in the muck, Brodeur's arrival coinciding with the team's leap from average team to contender, Schneider's decline coinciding with the team falling apart, Blackwood's ascent dragging the worst version of the team to mediocrity, only to have him fall apart as the franchise improved outside the net. The goal-scoring environment has nothing to do with it. It's hard to be bad when your team gets great goaltending (apart from 2015 and 2016), it's hard to be good when your team gets awful goaltending (2013, 2021, 2022).

The Sean Burke that had .876 SV% while he was here?

Now you're gonna goalpost shift and talk about era right?

 

[Bleedred]

Vitek was down 2-0 on 18 shots after the first period. They trailed from 10:50 of the first period to 3:55 of the second period in the Dallas game. They trailed for a little more than 13 minutes of 60+ minute game. With Vitek saving 89% of the shots in the first period...that's good goaltending?

Jack getting the 3rd goal of the game early in the second and Wood following up shortly after was way important than 89% saves.

Oh my god, come on now.

You're gonna dissect a goalie having an 89% for a period out of a game where overall he went .943% and 1000% in the last 2 periods?

 

[Guttersniped]

No question better amd more timely scoring relative to last season has made a difference. Better goaltending can also be making a difference. People on both sides of the discussion can be right. NJ has certainly done a better job scoring clutch goals as the season has gone on as well. If you lose in regulation by two or three what’s the difference but scoring the last second goal to get you to OT likely only happens if your goalie helps. Like the Vitek against Dallas. I don’t read this discussion as two mutually exclusive things.

I don’t think anyone is saying scoring or Jack going super nova doesn’t matter a lot. We only got one “Debate Me!” on the other side.

You have to have a pretty extreme position on our increased scoring, and our Beloved Scraggly Super Star, to get a debate out of it but “nothing else matters whatsoever” is “debatable” because it’s wrong.

Other good things happening on the team do matter. Love is a Many Splendored Thing. It Takes a Village. My Arms are too Short to Box with God.

That sort of thing.

 

[JimEIV]

[

Oh my god, come on now.

You're gonna dissect a goalie having an 89% for a period out of a game where overall he went .943% and 1000% in the last 2 periods?

Right .943 AFTER goal support because before the goal support he was below 90%

 

[Bleedred]

The Sean Burke that had .876 SV% while he was here?

Now you're gonna goalpost shift and talk about era right?

Sean Burke was overall NOT a good goalie here, which is pretty much the point.

But his .883% in 13 regular season games in 87-88 was above average (league average was .880% that season) and his .889% in 17 playoffs games was also above average. He was a +10.4 in goals saved above average for that playoffs.

His .873% the next season in 62 games the very next season was a -10.2 GSAA and we stunk that year and took a huge step back.

He stunk the next two years he played here too, but it just so happened that Chris Terreri did not and was above average those years, while Sean Burke was not.

And Burke whined about it and his role as backup and diminished playing time and held out an entire season over it. He continued to be really bad in his first year in Hartford and then turned it around in year 2 and mostly had a good career after that, outside of a few tail end years when he was in his late 30's.

 

[Bleedred]

[

Right .943 AFTER goal support because before the goal support he was below 90%

This is just really weird data snooping and grasping and weird micro analyzation.

This is actually even stranger than ''Well, if the skaters would have killed the penalty, the goalie's save percentage goes from .910% this game all the way up to .925%.''.

And even weirder than arguing ''Well, he had a .902% January, so you can't give him the Vezina, as he needs to be at least a .925%- .930% every month''.

 

[Oneiro]

Jack Adams winners and their goaltenders

• 2022: Darryl Sutter, Calgary Flames - Markstrom .922 (Vezina runner up)
• 2021: Rod Brind'Amour, Carolina Hurricanes. - Nedelkovic .932 (Calder runner up)
• 2020: Bruce Cassidy, Boston Bruins. - Rask .929 (Vezina runner up)
• 2019: Barry Trotz, New York Islanders. - Lehner .930 (Vezina third place)
• 2018: Gerard Gallant, Vegas Golden Knights.- Fleury .927 (Cup finalist)
• 2017: John Tortorella, Columbus Blue Jackets. - Bobrovsky .931 (Vezina winner)
• 2016: Barry Trotz, Washington Capitals. - Holtby .922 (Vezina winner)

But who cares?

Let the man cope by once more being painfully wrong about everything.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

This is just really weird data snooping and grasping and weird micro analyzation.

This is actually even stranger than ''Well, if the skaters would have killed the penalty, the goalie's save percentage goes from .910% this game all the way up to .925%.''.

And even weirder than arguing ''Well, he had a .902% January, so you can't give him the Vezina, as he needs to be at least a .925%- .930% every month''.

It’s especially stupid considering one of the goals went off of Haula’s asscheek and had nothing to do with the goalie. The other was a two man advantage unstoppable goal.

 

[billingtons ghost]

If the goal scoring picks up again sure but for a while now Wood has been pretty meh. I’m not sure a GM overpays for a guy like him if he is only scoring in the 12-14 goal range with about 30 points or less.

You're neglecting speed.

We brought up Chorske. We brought up Rolston. We traded for washed up Kamensky, we traded for Friesen. Blake Coleman was an asset. We traded for old Steve Sullivan.
We got Brunner. We traded for Grabner.

GMs overvalue speed.

You're also neglecting size. I can't put myself in a rival GMs spot and have them say: naw, I don't need another Mikes Wood type player for the playoffs.

I think he'd be a tremendous candidate to get us great return value if we dealt with a bubble team.

 

[Triumph]

The Sean Burke that had .876 SV% while he was here?

Now you're gonna goalpost shift and talk about era right?

LOL god it rules how pathetic your arguments are now. You latch on to the wrong thing and just fire away. I wasn't saying Sean Burke was good for any stretch except the most important one in the franchise's history to date, in the stretch drive and playoffs of 88. After that he was a below-average goalie and h-r thinks his final season here was worse than anything Blackwood's done for a full season.

Goaltending is important. Hard to win without a good one. Hard to lose with a great one.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

You're neglecting speed.

We brought up Chorske. We brought up Rolston. We traded for washed up Kamensky, we traded for Friesen. Blake Coleman was an asset. We traded for old Steve Sullivan.
We got Brunner. We traded for Grabner.

GMs overvalue speed.

You're also neglecting size. I can't put myself in a rival GMs spot and have them say: naw, I don't need another Mikes Wood type player for the playoffs.

I think he'd be a tremendous candidate to get us great return value if we dealt with a bubble team.

a pending UFA making $3 million with 2 goals in half the season

how could GMs resist?!

 

[billingtons ghost]

Jack Adams winners and their goaltenders

• 2022: Darryl Sutter, Calgary Flames - Markstrom .922 (Vezina runner up)
• 2021: Rod Brind'Amour, Carolina Hurricanes. - Nedelkovic .932 (Calder runner up)
• 2020: Bruce Cassidy, Boston Bruins. - Rask .929 (Vezina runner up)
• 2019: Barry Trotz, New York Islanders. - Lehner .930 (Vezina third place)
• 2018: Gerard Gallant, Vegas Golden Knights.- Fleury .927 (Cup finalist)
• 2017: John Tortorella, Columbus Blue Jackets. - Bobrovsky .931 (Vezina winner)
• 2016: Barry Trotz, Washington Capitals. - Holtby .922 (Vezina winner)

But who cares?

Let the man cope by once more being painfully wrong about everything.

Wait, I'm not sure about this post.. are you saying that the goaltender makes the coach or vice versa? All of those coaches are about sacrifice and playing good defense.

You have Nedjelkovic and Holtby and Markstrom on there. Bobrovsky wasn't much in Philly. Trotz is on there twice and could list a few more Vezina candidates.

Obviously there's some symbiosis.

Anyone saying Burke 'wasn't good' based on SV% during the 80s is completely ridiculous. He carried us. SV% is not relevant to 80s goaltending.

 

[Hisch13r]

You're neglecting speed.

We brought up Chorske. We brought up Rolston. We traded for washed up Kamensky, we traded for Friesen. Blake Coleman was an asset. We traded for old Steve Sullivan.
We got Brunner. We traded for Grabner.

GMs overvalue speed.

You're also neglecting size. I can't put myself in a rival GMs spot and have them say: naw, I don't need another Mikes Wood type player for the playoffs.

I think he'd be a tremendous candidate to get us great return value if we dealt with a bubble team.

Nice job shifting the goal posts to “bubble team”. Originally the conversation was about SJ. Last time I checked they’re definitely not a bubble team. Also if you’re a bubble team and you see a contender trying to pawn off a roster player onto you wouldn’t you be suspicious and realize there’s probably an issue there with that player?

 

[Oneiro]

Wait, I'm not sure about this post.. are you saying that the goaltender makes the coach or vice versa? All of those coaches are about sacrifice and playing good defense.

You have Nedjelkovic and Holtby and Markstrom on there. Bobrovsky wasn't much in Philly. Trotz is on there twice and could list a few more Vezina candidates.

Obviously there's some symbiosis.

Anyone saying Burke 'wasn't good' based on SV% during the 80s is completely ridiculous. He carried us. SV% is not relevant to 80s goaltending.

Simplify the Jack Adams trophy and consider it as success on some level, whether it's "surprise success" or "outright success." That's the only point. You need good goaltending to get somewhere.

Or you could also look at cup and conference finalists and how many of them are Vezina winners or, expanding out to include guys like Bishop/Lehner, how many are runners up. You cover way more than the lion's share of those appearances with just two criteria: Vezina winner or runner up. Few exceptions include Bobrovsky and Kuemper, and the latter posted a .921 when he won it all.

 

[billingtons ghost]

a pending UFA making $3 million with 2 goals in half the season

how could GMs resist?!

Last I checked we are halfway through the season and he has 8 goals and 17 points. But I know you can't read.