Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

[Comparison Ford]

Last year the top 4 forwards were Haula, Mercer, Hischier, McLeod/Lazar...Bratt also averaged a minute.

I would imagine it will stay similar?

Haula-Mercer
Hischier-Bratt
Lazar-???

i love Nico and Bratt on PK but do get worried about blocked shots, etc

 

[njdevils1982]

SIGN OLIWA

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

the whole top 6 vs top 9 debate is so dumb lol. top 6 bottom 6, that's the way it goes.

I mean, its not. Factual evidence (ice time) states otherwise. Hockey has changed over the past 10 or 20 years.

 

[Devil X]

Haula-Mercer
Hischier-Bratt
Lazar-???

i love Nico and Bratt on PK but do get worried about blocked shots, etc

Probably depends on how Keefe wants to deploy his guys.

I believe, and I am sure one of your stat wizards will either show I am right or wrong but doesnt Noesen kill penalties. If so he could jump in. Dont think Cotter does or Tatar.

 

[MartyOwns]

I mean, its not. Factual evidence (ice time) states otherwise. Hockey has changed over the past 10 or 20 years.

maybe i just refuse to consider it that way, who knows. i’m just curious, is that ice time 5 on 5 only?

 

[RNCDevil]

Top 6, bottom 6...blah..blah.

I think the Florida, TB, Boston points are that the top players cannot be physically taken out of their games. You're not going to intimidate Kucherov, Barkov, Marchand, Vegas, etc...

Softness, for me, just means that when pushed, a player fundamentally becomes a worse player when the refs decide it's ok to try to cripple the opponent (i.e. playoff hockey).

I'm also worried that simply adding tough players is not the answer. Their play was not going to make a difference either way. It's the potential difference makers whose game vacillates that worries me.

 

[Guttersniped]

Probably depends on how Keefe wants to deploy his guys.

I believe, and I am sure one of your stat wizards will either show I am right or wrong but doesnt Noesen kill penalties. If so he could jump in. Dont think Cotter does or Tatar.

Lol is “stat wizards” another way to say “people weird/dumb enough to waste time to look up PP ice time”?

Neither new guy PKs

 

[BurntToast]

Wow. Sooo many pages over toughness..

I thought something dope happened.

Fitz never said anything about the top 6. He said the defense sucked and the bottom 6 was too vanilla.

Jon Marino got Ffff*cked up this year, Siegs got ffff*cked up, Bahl didn’t always play to his size.
The defense was changed.

The 3rd has been a blackhole for years through multiple coaches. Noe for the price is dope. Go read through the Canes page, they would rather have Noe under 3 than Martinook over 3AVV.

It’s ok to have a team that can adapt to different styles of play. It would be nice to see the Devils win a few games when the rush is struggling.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

maybe i just refuse to consider it that way, who knows. i’m just curious, is that ice time 5 on 5 only?

correct, 5 on 5. Obviously special teams skews it a bit, but yeah

 

[My3Sons]

I don't think we did much to change the hardness/softness factor honestly. I think we just rearranged the furniture.

Dillion is a plus for sure but he's replacing Bahl who had 151 hits and 82 PIMs and killed penalties... Dillon is no doubt a significant upgrade but it's going to be at the same 3LHD slot doing the same exact thing albeit better and heavier. There is no wealth to spread here with this add. And it's still only 1 physical Dmen of 6. The one of 6 that probably will get 5th minutes.

Pesce for Marino does little to nothing in the hardness factor.

Over the last two years we lost Wood and McLeod and we are basically replacing them with Lazar and Noesen...I'm not sure we are gaining anything at all there, in fact it's probably a bigger loss than anyone is willing to admit.

But the real issue from my POV is softest part of the team has pretty much been exactly the same for a number of years... adding to the defense year after and shuffling bottom 6 forwards does not address the soft top 6 that gets the vast majority of the minutes. Meier definitely helps, but he hasn't been the force we need him to be since he's gotten here... I think a little more help is needed for guys like Jack and Bratt.

Edit: and I absolutely do believe PIMs are an indication of aggressiveness. Highly aggressive players take more penalties. And taking penalties because your aggressive and playing with an edge is absolutely not a bad thing. We need more of it.

Unless those penalties are for doing things like leaving your feet to make a hit or elbowing someone in the head or drilling them into the boards from behind they are just half meausres. Do you want to win or just hit guys?

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

Unless those penalties are for doing things like leaving your feet to make a hit or elbowing someone in the head or drilling them into the boards from behind they are just half meausres. Do you want to win or just hit guys?

I think hitting is beyond being* hard to play against. Being tough or hard to play against is willing to take the hit (and being able to) to make a play

Throwing hits is bonus and helps to weaken the other team, maybe drain some stamina. The issue was we had so many guys willing to make the skill plays but not the dirty plays

Its a mindset that can be adopted but isnt easy to, I dont think

* - edit

 

[guitarguyvic]

Top 6, bottom 6...blah..blah.

I think the Florida, TB, Boston points are that the top players cannot be physically taken out of their games. You're not going to intimidate Kucherov, Barkov, Marchand, Vegas, etc...

Softness, for me, just means that when pushed, a player fundamentally becomes a worse player when the refs decide it's ok to try to cripple the opponent (i.e. playoff hockey).

I'm also worried that simply adding tough players is not the answer. Their play was not going to make a difference either way. It's the potential difference makers whose game vacillates that worries me.

This is well framed. There’s just too many people who will assume that anytime someone utters “toughness” or whatever other cliche term, that you’re talking about unskilled goons who don’t play on the top lines.

It’s sometimes hard to articulate what it is specifically they are lacking, perhaps one example is “pushback”. Our guys get bullied and also don’t do any bullying. Nikita Kucherov is a top five player in the world, but he will absolutely play dirty, either as a response or proactively against the opposition. Another way to be “tough” is to be physically imposing. A guy like Barlow isn’t gonna get knocked off the puck or beat along the boards very easily, and on the other end he is the guy knocking opposing players off the puck and beating them in the corners. Relentless willingness to crush opponents with shoulders and play with an edge is another element. There’s different examples. The idea isn’t that each player has to be possess all of these qualities, just that there should be different players that can do at least one of those things that fall into the “tough” and “hard to play against” bucket.

 

[My3Sons]

I think hitting is beyond being* hard to play against. Being tough or hard to play against is willing to take the hit (and being able to) to make a play

Throwing hits is bonus and helps to weaken the other team, maybe drain some stamina. The issue was we had so many guys willing to make the skill plays but not the dirty plays

Its a mindset that can be adopted but isnt easy to, I dont think

* - edit

Except the only guy being honest is Marchand. He admitted that the goal is to injure thr guys on thr other team. I think someone else ancknowledged the way the game is reffed the team that is the best at cheating wins? Anything else is just lip service. If you want to win you cheap shot guys at every opportunity and clutch grab hold and cheap shot some more. Otherwise you are not really trying to win.

 

[devilsblood]

I think hitting is beyond being* hard to play against. Being tough or hard to play against is willing to take the hit (and being able to) to make a play

Throwing hits is bonus and helps to weaken the other team, maybe drain some stamina. The issue was we had so many guys willing to make the skill plays but not the dirty plays

Its a mindset that can be adopted but isnt easy to, I dont think

* - edit

Especially for guys who have played a skill game their whole lives.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

Except the only guy being honest is Marchand. He admitted that the goal is to injure thr guys on thr other team. I think someone else ancknowledged the way the game is reffed the team that is the best at cheating wins? Anything else is just lip service. If you want to win you cheap shot guys at every opportunity and clutch grab hold and cheap shot some more. Otherwise you are not really trying to win.

I can agree the game is geared towards player policing, which goes against what the refs should be there for. Players policing = overreactive violence

Especially for guys who have played a skill game their whole lives.

forget a skill game - I think its more tied to the mental and emotional personalities of the player. Not everyone is built to be a tough guy and thats okay too

 

[My3Sons]

I can agree the game is geared towards player policing, which goes against what the refs should be there for. Players policing = overreactive violence

forget a skill game - I think its more tied to the mental and emotional personalities of the player. Not everyone is built to be a tough guy and thats okay too

I think it’s more than player policing though. The supplemental discipline sucks and the refs game manage their way to irrelevancy. There is little reason not to just send some thugs out to intentionally injure the other team. Worst case scenario your player sits for a game while the other team loses guys for a month or more

 

[Goptor]

This year there is a clear top6 and bottom6. Hughes/Bratt/Meier/Hischier are all top6. Mercer is quiestionable, depending how he improves, everyone else are bottom 6 players

I assume Fitz knows this too since he said he was trying to sign a top6 player but didn't get one/under estimated the market.

 

[JimEIV]

Unless those penalties are for doing things like leaving your feet to make a hit or elbowing someone in the head or drilling them into the boards from behind they are just half meausres. Do you want to win or just hit guys?

Too many scenarios at play to address hypotheticals ...

Let me ask you would you have supported someone on our team throwing an elbow at Trouba's head?
Or Marchand?

I have no problem with retribution.

But in general I think having a player that plays on the edge to some degree is an element every team should have.

No defense attorney would ever want me on a jury.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

I think it’s more than player policing though. The supplemental discipline sucks and the refs game manage their way to irrelevancy. There is little reason not to just send some thugs out to intentionally injure the other team. Worst case scenario your player sits for a game while the other team loses guys for a month or more

One can hope the reason is good-will and morals getting in the way lol

 

[My3Sons]

Too many scenarios at play to address hypotheticals ...

Let me ask you would you have supported someone on our team throwing an elbow at Trouba's head?
Or Marchand?

I have no problem with retribution.

But in general I think having a player that plays on the edge to some degree is an element every team should have.

Forget retribution. The trick is to throw the elbow at their head without being provoked. Do unto others before they do unto you is how you win . Look at every instance of way over the top cheap shots. What’s the punishment? A five minute power play? Maybe a one game suspension? How many games did Siegenthaler and Bastian miss compared to Rempe? How many games have Wilson victims missed compared to him? The league is broken and they want to basically have low key gladiatorial combat without admitting it. Given how they administer the game you have no choice but to go beyond the acceptable hitting to win.

 

[JimEIV]

Forget retribution. The trick is to throw the elbow at their head without being provoked. Do unto others before they do unto you is how you win . Look at every instance of way over the top cheap shots. What’s the punishment? A five minute power play? Maybe a one game suspension? How many games did Siegenthaler and Bastian miss compared to Rempe? How many games have Wilson victims missed compared to him? The league is broken and they want to basically have low key gladiatorial combat without admitting it. Given how they administer the game you have no choice but to go beyond the acceptable hitting to win.

The league is not broken, it's the way it's always been. But now we have a lot more players that can't defend themselves than ever before.

 

[RSeen]

This year there is a clear top6 and bottom6. Hughes/Bratt/Meier/Hischier are all top6. Mercer is quiestionable, depending how he improves, everyone else are bottom 6 players

I assume Fitz knows this too since he said he was trying to sign a top6 player but didn't get one/under estimated the market.

I think 2 of Mercer/Palat/Tatar start there. Perhaps 1 by the trade deadline.

 

[BostonDevil]

I'm still worried about who's going to play with Jack

 

[CalamityX23]

I'm still worried about who's going to play with Jack

Noesen & Tatar...

Lol

 

[Emperoreddy]

I'm still worried about who's going to play with Jack

Either Bratt and Mercer or Bratt and Timo