Tusks Up
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One of my biggest hopes for this season is Jack plays 75+ games. I wanna see him get the long season in and maintain PPG, but its not a requirement. Consistency over the whole season is important
Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III
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I don't know if I see him making it this year. We have a lot of forwards on the roster at the moment. Next year could make more sense with Johnsson and Tatar gone, but either way, I think Foote's lack of foot speed will limit his ability to play with this roster.
Just playing a full season - like Bratt last year (or was it the year before? but that was weird Covid time to be sure) - to show that Jack can stand up to the pounding of the NHL.
He’s among the top elite offensive creative talents, the league recognizes that already. He’s also a major box office and media attraction. The face of the team and one of the faces of the league and changes the value of the NJ franchise upward and of the league too as far as viewer appeal and profile.
The question is can he take the pounding? And he’s going to attract more and more of it, the better that both he and the team get.
The injuries last year - shoulder and knee - the one the Seattle defenseman planting him into the ice upper body first; the Rangers guy (was it Rangers) maybe knee on knee - were both on plays Jack initiated or at least could have avoided. Or so I think. Against Seattle by staying low as he attempted to go by the defender; against NY by not going back at a guy after contact.
Anyway let him play a full season.
I st
I’ll think that hit leading to the shoulder injury was into the numbers on Jack’s back. The league let’s they go all the time. I’m not sure why drilling someone in thr back is good physical play or good defense.
- May 8, 2010
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Without mentioning slamming him to the ice after lol
It was the slam into the ice where I think he planted an elbow and popped the shoulder out. And my impression of it was that he could have protected himself better and stayed lower in that phase of the wrestling match (so to speak - the opponent got below him and sort of lifted and planted him). But really I would have to watch the play again.
OlfactoryHughes
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No call on the play so obviously it’s great defense, neutralized jack for a month.
with ruff saying….
"I watched the hit," said Ruff after the game. "I don't like how he fell, but the hit itself, I can't find a lot I would have to criticize. It's just that when he went down, I've had my share of shoulder injuries.”
Re-watching it myself, I have issues with it. As you said, he’s behind jack the whole time and just kinda smears him face first into the boards, it wasn’t a big crushing hit, but it was clearly from behind, with jack vulnerable, and no where to go.
OlfactoryHughes
Registered User
If you watch again in slow motion, you can even see a bit of a slew foot motion from Lauzon’s left leg, not that he got his foot, but kinda knees the back of his thigh in an upward motion that sends jack down harder then he would have fallen.
Nothing like getting irritated over something that’s ancient history to get your Sunday off to a good start. Thanks HF
Nothing like getting irritated over something that’s ancient history to get your Sunday off to a good start. Thanks HF
Jack Hughes played a full season in 2020-21, I don't know why this gets overlooked. He played all 56 games of the craziest season a player will ever play, the only thing that was different was the lack of travel, but the Devils played 47 games in 85 days, Jack played in every one, and no one will be asked to do that again in the NHL.
Jack Be Quick
Hasek Is Right
Not even Lidstrom?
I'm too young to have seen Orr in real time, but that's impressive praise. Because as much as I love Nieds and Scotty, Niklas was an animal that I'm grateful to have watched in my lifetime.
And people really need to pump the break on Makar. He's obviously a special player but we're talking about a guy who has been in the league for 3 years.
Erik Karlsson was supposedly the second coming for a few years as well.
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- Dec 20, 2018
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I’m late to the Okhotiuk debate but I don’t have a problem with being a HM on Pronman’s list.
He debuted at #18 in 2019, when we were 3rd (up from 20th in 2018) and the list had 23 prospects, plus 4 “Depth Players”. This was NHL Farm Rankings, without NHL players, so it covered a lot of prospects.*
Okhotiuk was an HM (then called “NHL Potential”) in 2021 when Pronman changed it to Organizational Ranking with NHL players 22 or under (but he was still including older prospects, up to 26, like Kaprizov). He made an effort to cut fringier players, we ranked 2nd and our list had 13 players with 12 HM.
Okhotiuk got dropped in 2021, when we ranked 6th, with 15 players listed and 12 HM (changed again to “Has a chance to play”). Pronman now limited the list to 22 and under for all players.
He’s back now, with our list at 14 and HM at 10.
So Okhotiuk has popped back in, probably in part due to his call up. It’s actually a positive thing to say he could be a 3rd pairing guy in the NHL.
It’s tough to make it beyond that with just defense in the NHL, you need puck moving skills and/or offensive production as well to get ice time.
If you look at the few guys who get more ice time with just defense and physical play they tend to have one thing in common and that’s size.
Bahl’s size does in fact matter and he has a more of a history of offensive production as well. Pronman only sees him a 3rd pairing guy too.
Siegenthaler’s ice time despite his production is actually kind of rare, it’s not a model, and there’s a reason he said he wants to increase his scoring this season.
You have to look at it in terms of comparable players.
There just aren’t guys who didn’t score much at all in the CHL playing big minutes in the NHL. The NCAA has really taken over the market of defensive defensemen.
Even then, there is usually some offense in college and typically a big selling point is their size.
If we put in with Russian defensemen, then you’re looking at players who are older and coming over in their prime after having established themselves in the KHL.
Perhaps he could have developed more offense in the OHL if his age 19 season didn’t get cut short and his age 20 season wasn’t spent in fake AHL season on an undermanned squad.
I like Okhotiuk and Pronman actually does too.
Expecting him to say he has top four potential now is expecting too much. If he shoots beyond these expectations then great.
*Side Note: The “Depth Players” in 2019 were Sharangovich, Hoelscher, Gritsyuk and McCarthy, which ended up being the strongest group of any team (with a major roster player plus #10 on his 2022 list).
The other current NHL roster players from other teams 2019 DP lists were Blake Lizotte (LAK), Gustav Lindstrom (DET), Joel Kiviranta (DAL), Gabriel Carlsson (CLB) and Jeremy Lauzon (BOS).
The other prospects young enough to still be on Pronman’s 2022 list who made it are all HM: Hunter Skinner D (NYR), Danila Zuravlyov D (COL), Matthew Steinberg F (COL), Liam Kirk F (ARI) and Nikita Nesterenko F (MIN).
Yes, I got sidetracked by plunging down that rabbit hole.
theathletic.com
theathletic.com
theathletic.com
theathletic.com
theathletic.com
He debuted at #18 in 2019, when we were 3rd (up from 20th in 2018) and the list had 23 prospects, plus 4 “Depth Players”. This was NHL Farm Rankings, without NHL players, so it covered a lot of prospects.*
Okhotiuk was an HM (then called “NHL Potential”) in 2021 when Pronman changed it to Organizational Ranking with NHL players 22 or under (but he was still including older prospects, up to 26, like Kaprizov). He made an effort to cut fringier players, we ranked 2nd and our list had 13 players with 12 HM.
Okhotiuk got dropped in 2021, when we ranked 6th, with 15 players listed and 12 HM (changed again to “Has a chance to play”). Pronman now limited the list to 22 and under for all players.
He’s back now, with our list at 14 and HM at 10.
So Okhotiuk has popped back in, probably in part due to his call up. It’s actually a positive thing to say he could be a 3rd pairing guy in the NHL.
It’s tough to make it beyond that with just defense in the NHL, you need puck moving skills and/or offensive production as well to get ice time.
If you look at the few guys who get more ice time with just defense and physical play they tend to have one thing in common and that’s size.
Bahl’s size does in fact matter and he has a more of a history of offensive production as well. Pronman only sees him a 3rd pairing guy too.
Siegenthaler’s ice time despite his production is actually kind of rare, it’s not a model, and there’s a reason he said he wants to increase his scoring this season.
You have to look at it in terms of comparable players.
There just aren’t guys who didn’t score much at all in the CHL playing big minutes in the NHL. The NCAA has really taken over the market of defensive defensemen.
Even then, there is usually some offense in college and typically a big selling point is their size.
If we put in with Russian defensemen, then you’re looking at players who are older and coming over in their prime after having established themselves in the KHL.
Perhaps he could have developed more offense in the OHL if his age 19 season didn’t get cut short and his age 20 season wasn’t spent in fake AHL season on an undermanned squad.
I like Okhotiuk and Pronman actually does too.
Expecting him to say he has top four potential now is expecting too much. If he shoots beyond these expectations then great.
*Side Note: The “Depth Players” in 2019 were Sharangovich, Hoelscher, Gritsyuk and McCarthy, which ended up being the strongest group of any team (with a major roster player plus #10 on his 2022 list).
The other current NHL roster players from other teams 2019 DP lists were Blake Lizotte (LAK), Gustav Lindstrom (DET), Joel Kiviranta (DAL), Gabriel Carlsson (CLB) and Jeremy Lauzon (BOS).
The other prospects young enough to still be on Pronman’s 2022 list who made it are all HM: Hunter Skinner D (NYR), Danila Zuravlyov D (COL), Matthew Steinberg F (COL), Liam Kirk F (ARI) and Nikita Nesterenko F (MIN).
Yes, I got sidetracked by plunging down that rabbit hole.
NHL farm system rankings: No. 20 New Jersey Devils
Corey Pronman’s deep dive into the farm system of every NHL organization includes a ranking of all of the team’s prospects, broken into tiers based on their projection; the impact on the upcoming season and an overall ranking of all players under 23. Further explanation of Pronman’s system and...
2019 NHL farm system rankings: No. 3 New Jersey Devils
Corey Pronman breaks down the Devils organization, ranking their best prospects and examining the impact they could have in the NHL.
2020 NHL organizational rankings: No. 2 New Jersey Devils
Corey Pronman ranks and evaluates the best young players in the Devils system.
NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 6 New Jersey Devils betting on Jack Hughes, Nico Hischier to hit another level
Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization with what to expect of every player.
Corey Pronman's NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 3 Devils paced by two Hughes brothers
Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization. Plus, what to expect of every player.
theathletic.com
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billingtons ghost
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- Nov 29, 2010
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Bollocks. Seider, weegar, josi, jones, fox, martinez, McAvoy among block leaders last season. It means more than just being in your zone. It means exactly what was said above; the anticipation and skating ability to put yourself in a position to block a shot.
Yeah, there's Brooks Orpik on the alltime list but guys like Duncan Keith, Weber, suter and Carlson with him.
Your initial point is correct to a degree that good defensemen also accumulate a lot of blocked shots, but they also play more than worse defensemen. Unfortunately NHL.com doesn't allow us to break down blocked shots by game state, but Seider is the only one in the top 50 in blocks/60 at 48 (minimum 40 games) - but now we're getting the reverse survivorship bias of guys who play on the power play seldom blocking shots there, whereas guys who only kill penalties and play at ES getting more opportunities to block. All I know is that most of the top of that list of blocks/60 are not guys I want more than one of on my team.
Blocking shots is barely a skill. It's very difficult to do and takes a lifetime to learn, but at the NHL level, it's just not making much of a difference to who wins and loses. Good teams do it, bad teams do it, there's not a huge repeatable ability to block shots on defense and not get shots blocked on offense.
Josi put up 10 more points on a weaker offensive team so Makar wasn't even tops currently.
He just gets more attention because Josi has been around for a while.
He just gets more attention because Josi has been around for a while.
- Dec 20, 2018
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You compare defensemen who have played a ton of hockey to young defensemen who haven’t though. Colorado has a very young defensive core, Toews is the elder at 28.
Despite his youth Byram was 3rd in 5v5 TOI/GP in the playoff, by far, for the Avs. Girard was 4th in the 7 games he played and he played well.
I think a more seasoned Makar and a brilliant playoff debut by Byram were the most important pieces this year.
Manson had an excellent playoffs, but he’s always paired well with more dynamic defensemen. He was also an 8 year veteran who in his short peak was top 4 defenseman on a very deep unit.
Erik Johnson was the #1 pick in 2006 and has played 857 regular season games. Jack Johnson was the #3 pick in 2005 and has 1024 GP. Luke Schenn was the #5 pick in 2008 and has 863 GP. They were very toolsy, talented guys at one point and have a ton of experience.
In comparison, Butcher was a 5th round pick and he played 275 NHL games. Good for him.
You name a bunch of offensive defenseman and call them “new age defensemen”. I don’t understand the term. I would argue that back in the day the NHL was kinder more one dimensional offensive types. With fewer power plays per game, being a PPQ doesn’t get you much love now. There aren’t many offensive specialists around now and they have to score a ton to hang on (Barrie is another example).
The fact is you need defense from forwards and you need offense from your defensemen or you lose. You don’t need that from all of them but you need it.
One of the reasons the Devils weren’t contenders post-lock out, even when did well in the regular season, was the lack of offense from the blue line. You can’t have six spots with Andy Greene being, by far, the best offensive player. And the best Lou could do at times was dig up Zidlicky’s corpse.
It’s easy to say Colorado needed more size, experience, pushback, etc when they had so much in terms of puck moving, possession and offense from there already.
And turning it back to Okhotiuk, Manson is listed at 6’3” and 218. He was also 23 before he played his first NHL game. Lyubushkin was 24 when he played his first. Graves was 23, and he’s more of PMD with a good amount of offense.
Okhotiuk is 21 with a December birthday and he lost development time due to COVID. He has another year on his ELC after this, he has runway left. I don’t know how good he is at PKing, but that will be important.
He’ll have to turn into a defensive stud to thread the needle, it’s tough to make the NHL in this role and even tougher to stick. The longevity of the players who do, plus the higher end guys who ease into the role later in their careers, don’t make it easier for new guys.
When I mentioned it’s tough to find directly comparable players in my other post, Ben Chiarot is a guy who didn’t score much at all in the OHL or AHL. He also played half his first pro season in the ECHL. Other than one random call-up in the season before at 22, Chiarot started playing in the NHL when he was 23. He’s listed at 6’3” and 226 as well.
Okhotiuk plays bigger than his size and who knows if his current listed measurements (6’1” & 194) are that up to date. That said, there’s a reason the defensive defenseman with established jobs are bigger than the average NHL player.
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Blocked shots is very important. Some of the best scoring chances come after a blocked shot because the defense isn't properly positioned yet.
Good example:
Notice favorite defenseman here Cale Makar playing behind the opponents goal line, leaving MacKinnon to make a bad defensive read at the blue line off a blocked shot.
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then there are the high blocks that manage to cause the puck to go out the zone which allows your teammates to quickly change lines or get better set up.
Waiting for Devils to begin their season i just want to share this incredible game from 1994 its really cool to se a very young Brodeur vs the legend Hasek in the beginning of his primetime in a incredible duel.
MasterofGrond
No, I'm not serious.
I'm absolutely just rehashing here but...
Shotblocking is good and maybe pretty important sometimes (even accounting for the risk of injury and other potential negative externalities), but it should never be the cornerstone of a guy's skillset or something mentioned in the first three sentences of a good NHL player's blurb. Pro hockey is a game of possession and transition, and even if blocking a shot sometimes leads to good results in those areas, it's almost certainly generally better to not be in a position where a dude is taking shots at your net that you're hoping to block.
A robotic mega-defenseman would have zero, after all, since they'd recover the puck before it ever got to that point.
I'm pro-defensive defenseman, I'm pro-physicality, I'm pro-having a dude who can win board battles down low, I'm pro-separating guys from pucks. I'm pro all those things as long as they come in a package that can also use them to actually get the puck back out of our end and to the forwards
Shot-blocking specifically, though? Nice to have if I'm getting all those previous things, I guess, but if I'm getting those and the dude never goes down to block a shot I'm not crying.
Shotblocking is good and maybe pretty important sometimes (even accounting for the risk of injury and other potential negative externalities), but it should never be the cornerstone of a guy's skillset or something mentioned in the first three sentences of a good NHL player's blurb. Pro hockey is a game of possession and transition, and even if blocking a shot sometimes leads to good results in those areas, it's almost certainly generally better to not be in a position where a dude is taking shots at your net that you're hoping to block.
A robotic mega-defenseman would have zero, after all, since they'd recover the puck before it ever got to that point.
I'm pro-defensive defenseman, I'm pro-physicality, I'm pro-having a dude who can win board battles down low, I'm pro-separating guys from pucks. I'm pro all those things as long as they come in a package that can also use them to actually get the puck back out of our end and to the forwards
Shot-blocking specifically, though? Nice to have if I'm getting all those previous things, I guess, but if I'm getting those and the dude never goes down to block a shot I'm not crying.
Sure, that will happen a few times a season, and depending on how much speed or transition ability a team has, it might happen a little more often. It's not a strategy. It's a thing that happens in the course of hockey. This reminds me of the faceoff debates where you can post faceoff wins leading to goals until your youtube feed is just faceoff wins/losses, but faceoffs aren't all that important overall (in part because of this very phenomenon, it's not hard for an offensive zone faceoff win to turn into a breakaway the other way off a block)
Blocked shots aren't important. I suppose it's a skill I would like players to have rather than not have, but it's way, way down on the list.
- Dec 20, 2018
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It’s not the most complicated thing in the world but you have to do it well.
Which means not screening your own goalie by mistake. Or having the puck take an unfortunate bounce of you. And you need to both accept the pain and know how to avoid serious injury.
Defensive defenseman get judged a lot on defending the rush now, even though everyone here tends to focus on crease clearing (granted our crease was often an open house).
Defensemen can be analyzed in a lot of ways.
They’re tough to project as prospects, that’s why it’s a bit scary to have gone defenseman twice at top. It’s even tougher to project lower picks because they get less rope.
I pushed back on poor @StevenToddIves post about defensemen but he does a terrific job of trying to figure out if defensive prospects has the two-play the current NHL demands, while having enough talent in certain areas to pop.
I like Scott Wheeler, but his love of offensive waterbugs that even he sees as “2nd unit PPQ” just don’t cut it, they most likely will end up really helping the AHL team.
On the other hand, I personally do like Bahl’s size. No problem admitting it. Guilty as charged. He has good flexibility/agility for his size, which along with his reach, makes him tough to outmaneuver.
billingtons ghost
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- Nov 29, 2010
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njdevils1982
Hell Toupée!!!
i approve
hamilton's defensive partner, who covers for his short comings.
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