Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[TBF1972]

Its nice to know our key players are just as miserable as us. I really think next year if we don't take the next step we will have a really pissed off lockeroom. Nico & Severson sound miserable & Hamilton basically said our culture is dog sh*t compared to where he came from. Hughes needs to just shut up about Ruff being great. As much as I love Hughes he probably just likes Ruff cause he knows he can do whatever he wants without fear of being punished. Also sounds like he has fun with the coach. How can you be having fun when your a bottom dweller team? Happy Nico is the captain over someone like Hughes.

working and having fun aren't exclusive.

different people are motivated for different reasons. hughes doesn't seem to be the hard working type, who reaches his goal by pure dedication and repetition. he is more of an artist on ice, who needs room for his creativity to shine. obviously there needs to be a balance between fun and discipline to get the best results. but him trying to be positive about his environment is no reason for concern. i don't think fitz will keep ruff because of the hughes' quote.

hughes on the other hand will learn from turnovers and gain confidence form successful plays. an experienced and confident hughes has more value for the devils than a bonsai version, who tries to avoid mistakes.

 

[Normal Devil]

Having an actual Goaltender (Saros) kinda helps make the coach look like he's "doing a good job", though.

Put Blackwood/Hammond or whatever flotsam of Goaltenders we have in net on the Preds, and they'd be selecting in the top 10 of the draft.

Hynes is not a good coach.

He just has a better goaltender.

I think that's it right there ... get a #1 goaltender and watch us start winning close games. I don't know how they are going to get that accomplished, but you definitely can't count on Blackwood being anything more than a #2.

 

[TBF1972]

Oh good, the seeds are being planted already for a future Nico vs Jack war on this board. I can't wait.

which upsets glenwo2 because bratt is left out ...

 

[NjDevsRR]

Its gonna be a long offseason on here

 

[RangerDoggo]

I’m more confident in coaches being fired after yesterday’s media availabilities, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The "culture" talk is so vague as to be pointless. Like, yeah, no shit the attitude is better in a room where you're winning a lot. Obviously transparency and accountability are good things, but they don't make you winners. Bad teams have them too.

Hard Work = Success is another one of those bullshit myths that needs to die. Most people work hard, only a fraction of a percent ever reach the top. You can't just will yourself to a Stanley Cup if the structure and talent aren't already there.

 

[My3Sons]

Jesus, people sure can read a lot into three sentences.

I'm a lawyer, that's what I do.

Post automatically merged: May 2, 2022

I don’t see Jack as insincere and it’s pretty wild that people are upset a 20 year kid didn’t publicly drag his coach so they could get their jollies.

So he likes Ruff? The guy he works with and for? The guy he’s supposed to listen to, learn from and take orders from? And that’s bad because he’s already fired in your head.

It’s a little different when you know the guy, I expect players to be stunned if/when Ruff gets it. Part of the reason you do that is to have that effect.

Of course Hughes went through that in 2019-20. We do want to avoid the other cliche of endlessly struggling team, like the Oilers and Sabres, with their ever-changing cast of coaches. Taylor Hall had 5 head coaches (w/ one interim) in 6 years while in Edmonton.

Yes, the 20 year old shouldn’t have been made Captain and wasn’t. I’m glad Nico’s leadership is getting recognized now (not sure why it wasn’t when he first got the C). Not every player is the same.

Jack made incredible advances as a player while only playing in 49 games this season. He takes his game seriously. The idea that he’s some lackadaisical hot dog is bizarre to me.

I don't think Hughes has to be lackaadaisical to need some age and experience to have a better perspective. It's just the nature of being 20 and super talented. I don't doubt he's very competitive and wants to win. It's just really hard in the NHL and requires a lot of self sacrifice. I only think Hischier really started to understand this season what he needs to do to really lead the team. I'm sure Jack will be a different player in two years than he is today. As long as the players and coaches realize what they need to improve on to get better it should be fine in the long run.

 

[NjDevsRR]

I'm a lawyer, that's what I do.

Post automatically merged: May 2, 2022

I don't think Hughes has to be lackaadaisical to need some age and experience to have a better perspective. It's just the nature of being 20 and super talented. I don't doubt he's very competitive and wants to win. It's just really hard in the NHL and requires a lot of self sacrifice. I only think Hischier really started to understand this season what he needs to do to really lead the team. I'm sure Jack will be a different player in two years than he is today. As long as the players and coaches realize what they need to improve on to get better it should be fine in the long run.

The litigation of The Lighthouse all makes sense now.

 

[tailfins]

Having an actual Goaltender (Saros) kinda helps make the coach look like he's "doing a good job", though.

Put Blackwood/Hammond or whatever flotsam of Goaltenders we have in net on the Preds, and they'd be selecting in the top 10 of the draft.

Hynes is not a good coach.

He just has a better goaltender.

These guys seem to disagree

Two years into John Hynes’s tenure, was he the right coaching choice for Nashville?

www.ontheforecheck.com

 

[RangerDoggo]

My conspiracy theory was that Hynes was trolling us. He's actually a decent coach, he was just never going to be that for us because he hates us.

 

[Triumph]

Hynes isn't a good coach but he isn't a bad one. That Nashville team is stuck in the middle but he's not hurting them. Any coach looks good when their starting goalie posts a .918 and the team isn't otherwise awful.

 

[Oneiro]

Jesus, people sure can read a lot into three sentences.

I was surprised no one mentioned Dougie's comment, and I thought twice about posting that quote. But I did it anyway...

The average age of this team is 24.9. For reference, one of the younger (relative to the league average) teams to win was the '10 Blackhawks who were 26.5 (relative to an avg. of 27.3) and '12 Kings who were about 27.. Most cup winners are over the average. We are very young.

The organization seems to have been laissez faire for a while but from the sound of those pressers, that will stop as of now. But I wouldn't be reading into players' personalities / preparation levels / attitudes - that's just fan-fiction.

 

[McDuffz88]

The "culture" talk is so vague as to be pointless. Like, yeah, no shit the attitude is better in a room where you're winning a lot. Obviously transparency and accountability are good things, but they don't make you winners. Bad teams have them too.
Hard Work = Success is another one of those bullshit myths that needs to die. Most people work hard, only a fraction of a percent ever reach the top. You can't just will yourself to a Stanley Cup if the structure and talent aren't already there.

I diagree. The culture talk isn't vague & pointless. When you got your teams top players openly stating things need to change & Hamilton calling us out on our loser culture it ain't vague at all. Its obvious we got a culture problem from the players to management. Also you need hard work to be successful in this league. How is that a myth? You don't win a Stanley cup by coasting on cruise control. Imagine a whole team with the motivation of Pavel Zacha, that team would go no where.

 

[Guttersniped]

To those surprised by Dougie's comments on the culture and it needing to become a winning culture, we just won 27 games out of 82 and finished with 63 points. No kidding, it's not currently a winning culture.

Yes, this is saying “we have to do better”. It’s not some stinging condemnation of the entire team. The former is the right thing to say and the latter is bitchy thing some people weirdly want.

The team did become messier as the losing set in and the endless parade of ineffectual goalies got longer, but that will happen with a lot of losing and seven goalies (five of whom you never played with before).

Losing begats more losing, it a tough cycle to break, it doesn’t mean the players don’t care. Part of the reason you go younger is older players are more likely to simply mentally check out in situations like that. Young guys are excited for the opportunities while vets are too old for this shit.

Frustration as they work to get better is good, but hopeless apathy is a real threat, and that comes after misery. So no, I don’t want miserable players.

I believe in team culture, but that’s something you have to grow, helped along with some smart additions. I don’t know a lot of winning clubs where people complain about the culture and losing ones where they don’t though.

I wanted veteran defensive forward help in the off-season, before the PTO season, in hopes of avoiding the defensive mess that our bottom six was from the start. In the end we did get more looks at young guys (more so after everything fell apart, so I still don’t see what the plan was) and I don’t know if we were helped by the filler (Gauthier, Geertsen, AHL tweener call-ups) that happened earlier on.

We could have used the depth on both ends, Utica was pretty thin, so Fitz not getting anyone to replace the many forwards lost (including vets) seemed like a mistake at the time. I’m curious what he does this off-season.

The team can cull from the herd at this point if additions are made. I generally have more faith in the staff knowing who is a good locker-room culture guy than fans, who tend simply favor “guys who are producing” and “guys who’s facial expressions/body language and interview clips are interpreted as representative of ‘the right vibe’ according to me”.

Nico failed the latter test for a numerous people early on as a Captain this season, in part probably because he was also seen as failing the former one by them. I thought it was dumb then, the kid was an obvious gamer, stuck out as leader pretty early on, and got the C for a reason, but people love to bitch about that magic letter (and facial expressions apparently).

People want to win and want good locker room culture, but if the latter requires sacrifices they don’t want to make, well, they aren’t always so into it. The people interested in Evander Kane better not have anything to say about wanting a good locker-room culture guys since I don’t know a player whom I recently heard so many specific negative stories about their bad locker-room influences (and no, a love of museums doesn’t count). But the Oilers are winning with him, so who cares, right?

 

[Guttersniped]

Hynes isn't a good coach but he isn't a bad one. That Nashville team is stuck in the middle but he's not hurting them. Any coach looks good when their starting goalie posts a .918 and the team isn't otherwise awful.

Or he’s a good coach. Yes, the Preds had an excellent goaltender, a Norris contender and shot well as group but things like that need to happen for teams to be successful. Boudreau isn’t turning the Canucks around like he did without Demko either.

I don’t understand the problem here. All coaches are hired to get fired and that’s particularly true of the NHL. You don’t have to like the guy and it’s not like he could have stayed here any longer. Sorry if some of your predictions that he wouldn’t have a career after us didn’t come true? Get over him?

We were Hyne’s first NHL coaching job. He very often knee-capped by goaltending, even in our playoff year Schneider completely stopped functioning mid-season and nearly sank us single-handedly.

 

[My3Sons]

Yes, this is saying “we have to do better”. It’s not some stinging condemnation of the entire team. The former is the right thing to say and the latter is bitchy thing some people weirdly want.

The team did become messier as the losing set in and the endless parade of ineffectual goalies got longer, but that will happen with a lot of losing and seven goalies (five of whom you never played with before).

Losing begats more losing, it a tough cycle to break, it doesn’t mean the players don’t care. Part of the reason you go younger is older players are more likely to simply mentally check out in situations like that. Young guys are excited for the opportunities while vets are too old for this shit.

Frustration as they work to get better is good, but hopeless apathy is a real threat, and that comes after misery. So no, I don’t want miserable players.

I believe in team culture, but that’s something you have to grow, helped along with some smart additions. I don’t know a lot of winning clubs where people complain about the culture and losing ones where they don’t though.

I wanted veteran defensive forward help in the off-season, before the PTO season, in hopes of avoiding the defensive mess that our bottom six was from the start. In the end we did get more looks at young guys (more so after everything fell apart, so I still don’t see what the plan was) and I don’t know if we were helped by the filler (Gauthier, Geertsen, AHL tweener call-ups) that happened earlier on.

We could have used the depth on both ends, Utica was pretty thin, so Fitz not getting anyone to replace the many forwards lost (including vets) seemed like a mistake at the time. I’m curious what he does this off-season.

The team can cull from the herd at this point if additions are made. I generally have more faith in the staff knowing who is a good locker-room culture guy than fans, who tend simply favor “guys who are producing” and “guys who’s facial expressions/body language and interview clips are interpreted as representative of ‘the right vibe’ according to me”.

Nico failed the latter test for a numerous people early on as a Captain this season, in part probably because he was also seen as failing the former one by them. I thought it was dumb then, the kid was an obvious gamer, stuck out as leader pretty early on, and got the C for a reason, but people love to bitch about that magic letter (and facial expressions apparently).

People want to win and want good locker room culture, but if the latter requires sacrifices they don’t want to make, well, they aren’t always so into it. The people interested in Evander Kane better not have anything to say about wanting a good locker-room culture guys since I don’t know a player whom I recently heard so many specific negative stories about their bad locker-room influences (and no, a love of museums doesn’t count). But the Oilers are winning with him, so who cares, right?

I don't think it's a one size fits all thing. If Hughes needs some freedom and an acknowledgement that at times he will make a bad risky pass to play his game to his potential you have to do that. Conversely, you probably don't want to do that with Zacha. In retrospect, maybe Hynes was right about him. Nico used the words "self-starter" or something close to that about getting ready for next season. He's clearly that sort of player but not everyone is and they likely can't just become one because he says they should. The lower down the roster you are the more "try hard" you probably need to be.

 

[NJDevs26]

Culture is more than about winning or talent, it’s about having a cohesive organization-wide system and holding people accountable. You think organizations that stress accountability would have let Ty Smith do what he did all year or throw up their hands and give up trying to motivate Zacha, just let him play by default?

Organizations with accountability do what the Mets did today…you aren’t cutting it? Screw contracts or how much you’re liked, you’re gone.

 

[SKNJD9]

One of these are not like the others

 

[AfroThunder396]

I diagree. The culture talk isn't vague & pointless. When you got your teams top players openly stating things need to change & Hamilton calling us out on our loser culture it ain't vague at all. Its obvious we got a culture problem from the players to management. Also you need hard work to be successful in this league. How is that a myth? You don't win a Stanley cup by coasting on cruise control. Imagine a whole team with the motivation of Pavel Zacha, that team would go no where.

Of course things need to change, we're a bad team. We need better goaltending and better coaching. That has nothing to do with work ethic. 31 teams don't win the Stanley Cup, are you suggesting every one of them is filled with lazy freeloaders and the one winner is blue collar culture team?

What did our winning culture under Lou Lamoriello get us from 2012-2015? We had a no-nonsense Hall of Fame GM, a Jack Adams runner-up, the best goalie of all time, and decades of success. All it got us is slow shitty grinding hockey that sucked to watch and led to embarrassing finishes. What did winning culture get us in 2010 when Stanley Cup champion and captain Jamie Langenbrunner had a pissing contest with Hall of Fame coach Jacques Lemaire that lead to the worst 2nd half collapse in franchise hitsory?

How did Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Washington break through and win their first Stanley Cups this decade after 50 years of losing culture? How did Ryan O'Reilly get to be a Conn Smythe winning franchise center after getting traded by COL for being a bad leader and being banished from buffalo of all places? How did Mike Richards and Jeff Carter get traded out of Philly due to locker room reasons and then immediately win 2 Cups in 3 years in LA? How did Marian Hossa go from a heartless mercenary chasing the money to Hall of Famer and one of the best two-way players of his generation?

It's an illusion, that's it. If you win, that means you earned it because you worked hard. Pay no attention to the other 700 players in the league that worked just as hard as you but didn't win. No, it's definitely because you're special and try the most hardest out of anyone. Culture and work ethic make it easier for fans of bad teams to believe they have a chance against superior talent if they can just play hard enough. Sometimes it happens for a game, or a playoff series or two. But it's not sustainable.

Obviously if there's a bad apple then you need to get rid of them. But we didn't miss the playoffs because Zacha didn't backcheck hard enough. We missed because of our historically bad goaltending, atrocious power play, lack of quality depth options, and injuries to key players.

 

[Bad Goalie]

They should get a shot in camp, but without any trades, there might be not enough tickets. Only Vesey and Subban are UFA's and in Vesey's case I think there could be interest from both sides for an extension. I think Subban is gone.
The Devils have four RFA forward in Boqvist, Bratt, Wood and Zacha. Bratt is an easy choice for an extension and only if they are worlds apart for a long term deal and Bratt is pushing for a contract right to UFA, a trade is an option. Boqvist should get a bridge quite easily. Wood's health could be a deciding factor, but I expect him back on a short term proof me deal. With Zacha any scenario is realistic.

Without any trades the Devils could have 13 forwards and 5 defensemen signed for next season. Neither Zetterlund, nor Okhotyuk will have an easy way on the opening day roster.

C
Hughes, Hischier, Boqvist, McLeod

LW
Sharangovich, Johnsson, Tatar, Wood, Kuokkanen

RW
Bratt, Mercer, Bastian

Other forward options
Vesey, Zacha, Thompson, Holtz, Foote

LD
Siegenthaler
Graves
Smith

RD
Hamilton
Severson

Other defensemen options
Bahl, Walsh

The bolded ones I would be extremely surprised, if they aren't on the opening day roster.

I can see, Johonsson, Tatar, Wood, Zacha, Graves and Smith in trades.

I can see Wood, Kuokkanen and Smith starting in the AHL.

Wood and Kuok could be lost to waivers, Yes?

Wood maybe not due to his injury time off. They took Studenic and he had a whole lot less NHL time than Kuok who has over 100 GP. I looked up Kuok's waiver situation and he may have another year before becoming waiver eligible. I even looked up waivers for dummies and this dummy still has a problem with counting the years from x to y.

 

[Omar Little]

Culture is more than about winning or talent, it’s about having a cohesive organization-wide system and holding people accountable. You think organizations that stress accountability would have let Ty Smith do what he did all year or throw up their hands and give up trying to motivate Zacha, just let him play by default?

Organizations with accountability do what the Mets did today…you aren’t cutting it? Screw contracts or how much you’re liked, you’re gone.

I do think the lack of organizational depth has hurt this. I do think making the acquisitions some of us have been discussing (one top 6 winger, middle six winger or center, potentially 4th line center, 3rd pairing RD) should help make this a reality. Discarding Zacha at a minimum (and potentially one of Tatar/Johnsson and maybe Smith) will help.

But it’s clear that these moves need to be made now. There is no more available patience in waiting for players to take the next step and there shouldn’t be the assumption rookies are penciled in for roster spots.

 

[swiiscompos]

Hynes isn't a good coach but he isn't a bad one. That Nashville team is stuck in the middle but he's not hurting them. Any coach looks good when their starting goalie posts a .918 and the team isn't otherwise awful.

Having a defenseman with the best offensive season in several decades also helps.

 

[MauDevils]

Gillies got an invite to worlds? Is he playing for Ghana?

 

[TrufleShufle]

Of course things need to change, we're a bad team. We need better goaltending and better coaching. That has nothing to do with work ethic. 31 teams don't win the Stanley Cup, are you suggesting every one of them is filled with lazy freeloaders and the one winner is blue collar culture team?

What did our winning culture under Lou Lamoriello get us from 2012-2015? We had a no-nonsense Hall of Fame GM, a Jack Adams runner-up, the best goalie of all time, and decades of success. All it got us is slow shitty grinding hockey that sucked to watch and led to embarrassing finishes. What did winning culture get us in 2010 when Stanley Cup champion and captain Jamie Langenbrunner had a pissing contest with Hall of Fame coach Jacques Lemaire that lead to the worst 2nd half collapse in franchise hitsory?

How did Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Washington break through and win their first Stanley Cups this decade after 50 years of losing culture? How did Ryan O'Reilly get to be a Conn Smythe winning franchise center after getting traded by COL for being a bad leader and being banished from buffalo of all places? How did Mike Richards and Jeff Carter get traded out of Philly due to locker room reasons and then immediately win 2 Cups in 3 years in LA? How did Marian Hossa go from a heartless mercenary chasing the money to Hall of Famer and one of the best two-way players of his generation?

It's an illusion, that's it. If you win, that means you earned it because you worked hard. Pay no attention to the other 700 players in the league that worked just as hard as you but didn't win. No, it's definitely because you're special and try the most hardest out of anyone. Culture and work ethic make it easier for fans of bad teams to believe they have a chance against superior talent if they can just play hard enough. Sometimes it happens for a game, or a playoff series or two. But it's not sustainable.

Obviously if there's a bad apple then you need to get rid of them. But we didn't miss the playoffs because Zacha didn't backcheck hard enough. We missed because of our historically bad goaltending, atrocious power play, lack of quality depth options, and injuries to key players.

You seriously can do this with any issue. Boil it down to sound like people are saying it's the only issue and make it sound like nonsense.

You need elite players to win, so are you saying there are no elite players on 31 NHL teams?

You need a good goalie to win, so are you saying 31 teams have garbage goalies?

You need a good head coach to win, so are you saying 31 teams have Helen Keller steering the ship?

You want me to keep going, or can we look at the culture issue as something we could work on, while acknowledging teams who win the cup have a good one along with everything else.

It's ok to talk about multiple issues, trust me, no one is going to forget about our horrible goaltending.

 

[Triumph]

Losing begats more losing, it a tough cycle to break, it doesn’t mean the players don’t care. Part of the reason you go younger is older players are more likely to simply mentally check out in situations like that. Young guys are excited for the opportunities while vets are too old for this shit.

Couldn't help but notice when I was evaluating the pond hockey ness of the Devils how dismal the Islanders were down the stretch, they were at NHL .500 but way underwater territorially, in a way they typically haven't been even under Trotz.