Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Triumph]

His career just wasn’t that good. He scored 94 and 82 points when he was 24 and 25 years old, then never scored 70 points again.

Even if you look at his full season pace in the years he was injured, he was never at a 70 point pace again. His 82 game scoring average for his career is 58 points. FIFTY EIGHT. Sorry, that’s not a hall of famer. In any era.

Sure it is - if Parise played his prime during the 80s when 10+ players were scoring 50 goals a year, he wouldn't be averaging 58 points a season, he'd be closer to 70 points a season. Parise was also a top play driver in his prime and seldom played with another HOF-level player at forward.

I guess he wouldn't likely be a Hall of Fame forward even in that case, but he'd be a lot closer and would at least be a guy where he gets asked about.

 

[Guttersniped]

I think money was certainly a factor in Parise leaving, but it clearly wasn't the factor in him leaving. And it's pretty obvious from the quotes above that Ryan Suter is the one wearing the pants in that relationship.

That being said - after seeing Martin Brodeur in a St. Louis Blues jersey, Scott Gomez in a New York Rangers jersey Brian Rafalski in a Detroit Red Wings jersey, and Scott Niedermayer in an Anaheim Ducks jersey, I just simply can't hold grudges against these players anymore. My feelings cannot possibly be hurt any more than they have been. I'm numb to it at this point.

Parise went to Minnesota and it didn't matter for Minnesota, their homecoming was a colossal failure (at least on the ice, I'm sure ownership is happy with how many tickets and sweaters they sold). And it wouldn't have mattered to New Jersey if he stayed - Kovalchuk was going to leave for Russia whether Parise was here or not, Brodeur and Elias would have gone quietly into that long good night. DeBoer was going to fall on his sword for us, and the Schneider trade probably still happens regardless.

The only real difference is that Daly and Bettman would be even MORE pissed at us for cap circumvention after pulling that shit twice in back to back years. They would have looked for an excuse to dock us even more money and draft picks. And our rebuild likely would have taken longer to get off the ground due to having an untradeable albatross on our books for the foreseeable future.

Parise was never the same player due to injuries, it’s impossible to stay mad because he broke down. If he was a Pavelski-like ageless wonder then there would be something to be bitter about.

Granted the Wild were a low event hockey team at times but he also just missed so much time with injury.

Under Sutter

Under Lemaire (go figure)

Under De Boer

Spoiler: Parise, 3 years at a time

NJD

Minny

NYI (mostly)

 

[Goptor]

Parise went to Minnesota because they were paying a ton in bonuses. Most players knew there was going to be a lockout and probably lose a whole season.
Zach was looking at getting paid $20mil before he even laced up skates for Minnesota if there was a lost season.

Its funny that he went through all that research to make sure he went to a team with excellent prospects and team but totally blanked out on having Chuck Fletcher as the GM.

 

[Bleedred]

Holik very much left on bad terms because the arbitration hearing and what was said there. He got over it.

I remember that vividly. He sounded off after his arbitration ruling in 2001, where he got a one year deal that took him to UFA the next year. He said something like they don't wanna pay for good labor and wanna get you for cheap. He didn't take any personal shots at Lou or the organization from what I remember, but he was not happy at all. He said flat out that he wanted to maximize his earnings and that he would do that next summer by going to the UFA market.

And he also reiterated that several times when asked about it the next season. I respected him for not blowing a bunch of smoke up everybody's asses.

When I say who they signed with causing the bad terms, I mostly mean the fanbase. That turned the fanbase against them much more than someone like Rafalski, who signed with Detroit. Which is understandable. I don't think Gomez really left on bad terms with Lou or the organization. I don't think Lou really wanted him back anyway and he knew we weren't going to keep him. I don't even think he made him an offer, from what I remember.

 

[JimEIV]

It's also not just getting games but not getting micro-managed / benched / scratched for the smallest things. Dude has not been given a chance whatsoever.

He got opportunities. He just wasn't very good during the opportunities he did get.

No doubt that many of his games this season he got shelfed but that really was his own making.

He played in 19 games this seasons
He got some Power Play time, in fact 2 of his 3 goals were from the PP and he's only scored 1 even strength goal in his career...and that is really the problem. 33 shots in 28 career games, not particularly good at generating anything for himself, not particularly good in his own zone, a bit sluggish on his skates and not a lot of energy in his game. You're never going to get more minutes with the performances he's put in so far.

 

[Bleedred]

Parise went to Minnesota because they were paying a ton in bonuses. Most players knew there was going to be a lockout and probably lose a whole season.
Zach was looking at getting paid $20mil before he even laced up skates for Minnesota if there was a lost season.

Its funny that he went through all that research to make sure he went to a team with excellent prospects and team but totally blanked out on having Chuck Fletcher as the GM.

Fletcher had only been an NHL GM for 3 years by that point. I can't really say if I thought he was really all that bad or not before that, but he hadn't really built the (horrible) resume that he would really accumulate by the time he was with the Flyers.

 

[JrFischer54]

Sure it is - if Parise played his prime during the 80s when 10+ players were scoring 50 goals a year, he wouldn't be averaging 58 points a season, he'd be closer to 70 points a season. Parise was also a top play driver in his prime and seldom played with another HOF-level player at forward.

I guess he wouldn't likely be a Hall of Fame forward even in that case, but he'd be a lot closer and would at least be a guy where he gets asked about.

man i never once thought of parise and HOF in the same sentence. usa hall of fame? sure i guess but even that criteria has to be getting harder with the talent usa is producing. only silver lining to losing the cup in 12 is parise not being able to get the cup win and then skip town on a massive payday.

 

[Saugus]

Parise won't be going to the Hall of Fame, and the injuries and lockouts definitely have something to do with it.

If he had made it to 500G-1000P, won any individual awards, or was anywhere near being a career PPG player, he might have a chance. But unless he plays forever like Recchi or Jagr, he won't get to 500 goals or 1000 points, and the ship has sailed on the other qualifications.

 

[Bleedred]

His career just wasn’t that good. He scored 94 and 82 points when he was 24 and 25 years old, then never scored 70 points again.

Even if you look at his full season pace in the years he was injured, he was never at a 70 point pace again. His 82 game scoring average for his career is 58 points. FIFTY EIGHT. Sorry, that’s not a hall of famer. In any era.

I was surprised it was only 58 points per 82 games. I thought it would be higher.

The last 3 seasons he's only produced at a 34 point pace, so that's likely knocked it down from 65-ish per 82 to 58 per 82.

 

[Bleedred]

Parise won't be going to the Hall of Fame, and the injuries and lockouts definitely have something to do with it.

If he had made it to 500G-1000P, won any individual awards, or was anywhere near being a career PPG player, he might have a chance. But unless he plays forever like Recchi or Jagr, he won't get to 500 goals or 1000 points, and the ship has sailed on the other qualifications.

I don't know it lockouts really had much to do with it, as he really only lost a potential 34 games to lockout and then another potential 26 games to the covid shortened season, where he missed 11 of the 56 games that were played and that was the first season of him being a 30-something point player.

He could have potentially made the NHL in 04-05 though, if there was a season. That was his first year as a pro. It's possible he plays that year at 20 years old or at least part of the season, then has a breakout in 05-06 instead of debuting in 05-06 and not breaking out until 06-07.

Parise is more like a Brad Richards or Lecavalier hall of very good player. Guys that just miss out. He had a similar career to those guys, though due to playing a bit older than they did, his production dropped at the end, lowering his overall career production to significantly less than those guys. Although both of those guys last 2 or 3 seasons were kind of similar to Parise's last 3 seasons to date.

Patrick Marleau is another guy I'd say Parise is probably on par with, but Marleau will get into the HHOF, only because of his games played record. He wouldn't have gotten in if he didn't break that record.

Parise won't be going to the Hall of Fame, and the injuries and lockouts definitely have something to do with it.

If he had made it to 500G-1000P, won any individual awards, or was anywhere near being a career PPG player, he might have a chance. But unless he plays forever like Recchi or Jagr, he won't get to 500 goals or 1000 points, and the ship has sailed on the other qualifications.

I don't know it lockouts really had much to do with it, as he really only lost a potential 34 games to lockout and then another potential 26 games to the covid shortened season, where he missed 11 of the 56 games that were played and that was the first season of him being a 30-something point player.

He could have potentially made the NHL in 04-05 though, if there was a season. That was his first year as a pro. It's possible he plays that year at 20 years old or at least part of the season, then has a breakout in 05-06 instead of debuting in 05-06 and not breaking out until 06-07.

Parise is more like a Brad Richards or Lecavalier hall of very good player. Guys that just miss out. He had a similar career to those guys, though due to playing a bit older than they did, his production dropped at the end, lowering his overall career production to significantly less than those guys. Although both of those guys last 2 or 3 seasons were kind of similar to Parise's last 3 seasons to date.

Patrick Marleau is another guy I'd say Parise is probably on par with, but Marleau will get into the HHOF, only because of his games played record. He wouldn't have gotten in if he didn't break that record.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Pages on Parise…

 

[Blackjack]

I was surprised it was only 58 points per 82 games. I thought it would be higher.

The last 3 seasons he's only produced at a 34 point pace, so that's likely knocked it down from 65-ish per 82 to 58 per 82.

If you remove his last three seasons it’s 63 points.

From 2007-2008 to 2014-2015 he was never under 65 per 82, and in that span he averaged 73 per 82.

Pages on Parise…

View attachment 741557

Meh, we’re just moving through our stages of offseason grief. We had our annual Shero argument a couple weeks ago, we’ll probably slug it out over Niedermayer in another week.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Parise not even close to a Hall of Famer. Like, not even remotely close.

There's probably a list of 150+ players that are not in the Hall of Fame that would be more deserving than him.

 

[Guttersniped]

UPDATED LIST:

- Jason Arnott
- Petr Sykora
- Scott Gomez
- Bobby Holik
- Brendan Shanahan
- Tommy Albelein
- Steve Sullivan
- Alexi Ponikarovsky
- Claude Lemieux
- Stephan Richer
- Mike Rupp
- Nathan Bastian
- Scott Wedgewood
- Scott Clemmensen (3 stints)
- Brian Rolston
- Anssi Salmela


No because Urbom never played another game for us. This list is for guys who played NHL games for us, then went and played NHL games elsewhere, then came back and played NHL games for us again.

Chris Terreri (technically 3, but he never played for Minnesota after they took him in expansion draft, before we made a trade to get him back)
Jim Dowd
Vladimir Malakhov
Alexander Mogilny
Krzysztof Oliwa
(The 2005-06 season basically lol.)
Jay Leach
Mark Fraser
Cam Janssen (come on now, people forgot this favorite?)

 

[JimEIV]

I can't believe everyone forgot Tommy Abelin on the reunited tour.

Edit: ooops...I missed his name of the original list

 

[devilsblood]

It's also not just getting games but not getting micro-managed / benched / scratched for the smallest things. Dude has not been given a chance whatsoever.

He got opportunities. He just wasn't very good during the opportunities he did get.

No doubt that many of his games this season he got shelfed but that really was his own making.

He played in 19 games this seasons
He got some Power Play time, in fact 2 of his 3 goals were from the PP and he's only scored 1 even strength goal in his career...and that is really the problem. 33 shots in 28 career games, not particularly good at generating anything for himself, not particularly good in his own zone, a bit sluggish on his skates and not a lot of energy in his game. You're never going to get more minutes with the performances he's put in so far.

Ya to what Jim says above, he wasn't "scratched for the smallest things". He was scratched because he couldn't keep up with the game. It's a big picture issue for Holtz, not a specific play issue.

I think skating is the biggest issue, others (including the athletic just recently) want to say it's also about the speed at which he mentally processes the game, but all in all, he wasn't good enough.

And I don't want to hear about preseason play. That's very much akin to minor league play. Both of which are against lower competition playing at a slower tempo.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

 

[Nocashstyle]

Good. No need to give up substantial assets for one guaranteed year of Helle and then what would inevitably be a massive and incredibly risky extension

 

[Cheddabombs]

Alright fine, they can have Smith. But that's as far as I'd be willing to go

 

[Guttersniped]

I don't know it lockouts really had much to do with it, as he really only lost a potential 34 games to lockout and then another potential 26 games to the covid shortened season, where he missed 11 of the 56 games that were played and that was the first season of him being a 30-something point player.

He could have potentially made the NHL in 04-05 though, if there was a season. That was his first year as a pro. It's possible he plays that year at 20 years old or at least part of the season, then has a breakout in 05-06 instead of debuting in 05-06 and not breaking out until 06-07.

Parise is more like a Brad Richards or Lecavalier hall of very good player. Guys that just miss out. He had a similar career to those guys, though due to playing a bit older than they did, his production dropped at the end, lowering his overall career production to significantly less than those guys. Although both of those guys last 2 or 3 seasons were kind of similar to Parise's last 3 seasons to date.

Patrick Marleau is another guy I'd say Parise is probably on par with, but Marleau will get into the HHOF, only because of his games played record. He wouldn't have gotten in if he didn't break that record.


I don't know it lockouts really had much to do with it, as he really only lost a potential 34 games to lockout and then another potential 26 games to the covid shortened season, where he missed 11 of the 56 games that were played and that was the first season of him being a 30-something point player.

He could have potentially made the NHL in 04-05 though, if there was a season. That was his first year as a pro. It's possible he plays that year at 20 years old or at least part of the season, then has a breakout in 05-06 instead of debuting in 05-06 and not breaking out until 06-07.

Parise is more like a Brad Richards or Lecavalier hall of very good player. Guys that just miss out. He had a similar career to those guys, though due to playing a bit older than they did, his production dropped at the end, lowering his overall career production to significantly less than those guys. Although both of those guys last 2 or 3 seasons were kind of similar to Parise's last 3 seasons to date.

Patrick Marleau is another guy I'd say Parise is probably on par with, but Marleau will get into the HHOF, only because of his games played record. He wouldn't have gotten in if he didn't break that record.

Parise definitely had Hall of Fame potential, but he needed longevity, and some post season winning and/or hardware, and got none of those things.

He hit 30 hard, late 20s really, and yeah, that’s worse for Parise in terms of legacy because he was 21 years old in his rookie season.

Lecavalier was 18 when he started, he had already done this in the NHL before his age 21 season:

Richard was 20 in his first season. Side note: He lost a tough Calder race despite 62 points.

Turco is a guy my brain always thinks had a better career than he did, his early numbers were eye popping, but his play declined after 30.

Anyhoo, the adjusted hockey guy doesn’t seem to have Parise’s card. Boo.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

- Jason Arnott
- Petr Sykora
- Scott Gomez
- Bobby Holik
- Brendan Shanahan
- Tommy Albelin
- Steve Sullivan
- Alexi Ponikarovsky
- Claude Lemieux
- Stephan Richer
- Mike Rupp
- Nathan Bastian
- Scott Wedgewood
- Scott Clemmensen (3 stints)
- Brian Rolston
- Anssi Salmela
- Alexander Mogilny
- Cam Janssen
- Chris Terreri
- Jim Dowd
- Vladimir Malakhov
- Krzysztof Oliwa
- Jay Leach
- Mark Fraser


That's a huge list! I would bet there is no other franchise that has a list this long from 1982 - now.

 

[devilsblood]

As per Helle's extension, and what we tend to think is an inevitability.

But the NFL has fully come around to just not paying RB's. Even young, very productive players like Bark's. I mean sure a 5 year deal for Bark's is risky, but a one year for $11mil is ridiculously cheap given likely production. It's gotten unfair to RB's actually.

I know it only takes one team, and the Jet's can't slap a franchise tag on Helle's the way the Giants could with Bark's, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is not a situation where Helle's gets considerably less then consensus, at least in terms of years.

 

[Saugus]

That's a huge list! I would bet there is no other franchise that has a list this long from 1982 - now.

If so, it's because we had a GM-for-life who was so committed to recycling that he could have gotten an award from Greenpeace.

 

[Bleedred]

I can't believe everyone forgot Tommy Abelin on the reunited tour.

Edit: ooops...I missed his name of the original list

He was one of the first guys to come back here a second time.

Claude Lemieux definitely returned a second time before he did, but there weren't too many before him.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Zach Parise was never gonna age well from his peak, his play style was always gonna cause late in his career + the game getting way faster. Him and Mike Richards were always two guys that I thought would fall off a cliff, I'll give Zach credit for lasting longer than Richards but it was getting a bit dark for him in Minnesota with that bad injury he had before he bounced back.