Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Nocashstyle]

My favorite is always “Brodeur was only good because he had guys like Stevens, Niedermayer, and Rafalski in front of him.”

Then the next day: “Stevens and Niedermayer weren’t that good, they just had Brodeur behind them.”

 

[Saugus]

My favorite is always “Brodeur was only good because he had guys like Stevens, Niedermayer, and Rafalski in front of him.”

Then the next day: “Stevens and Niedermayer weren’t that good, they just had Brodeur behind them.”

A related circular argument that is a favorite of mine: "Brodeur was only good because he played behind the trap." followed by "The trap only worked because Brodeur came out to play the puck so much."

They never seem to make the connection between the two.

 

[Hisch13r]

My favorite is always “Brodeur was only good because he had guys like Stevens, Niedermayer, and Rafalski in front of him.”

Then the next day: “Stevens and Niedermayer weren’t that good, they just had Brodeur behind them.”

Besides 96-97 some of his best years numbers wise also came after the Scotts were gone and some of those also after Rafalski was gone. Martin also gets criminally underrated. He was elite

96-97 was his best year SV% wise and GSAA just every so slightly behind 06-07 despite playing 11 fewer games. Potentially coincidentally that was his only year he played under 70 games from 95-96 to 07-08. Him playing so much probably hurt his numbers.

Martin was a beast

 

[NjDevsRR]

Please tell me you didn’t see my initial reply before yours, im crying

 

[Saugus]

Paul Martin was ridiculously underrated because he wasn't a super physical defenseman. Instead, he was effective because he was one of the best positional defenseman of his era, excellent at getting his stick in the shooting lane or steering an onrushing attacking player to the outside and into the corners.

But he played at a time where the guys thought of as top defensive defensemen (Phaneuf, Pronger, Volchenkov, Orpik, etc) were routinely blowing guys up with big hits, so he was overshadowed.

 

[Nocashstyle]

A related circular argument that is a favorite of mine: "Brodeur was only good because he played behind the trap." followed by "The trap only worked because Brodeur came out to play the puck so much."

They never seem to make the connection between the two.

“Trap” is such a buzzword that I’m confident that at least 90% of fans that throw it around as an insult don’t even understand what it is, or that their favorite team also employs versions of a NZ trap at times during a game.

 

[Saugus]

“Trap” is such a buzzword that I’m confident that at least 90% of fans that throw it around as an insult don’t even understand what it is, or that their favorite team also employs versions of a NZ trap at times during a game.

This is true for a stunningly high proportion of the broadcast crews around the league too, with the result that they actively misinform their audiences.

 

[njdevils1982]

Paul Martin was ridiculously underrated because he wasn't a super physical defenseman. Instead, he was effective because he was one of the best positional defenseman of his era, excellent at getting his stick in the shooting lane or steering an onrushing attacking player to the outside and into the corners.

But he played at a time where the guys thought of as top defensive defensemen (Phaneuf, Pronger, Volchenkov, Orpik, etc) were routinely blowing guys up with big hits, so he was overshadowed.

i'll admit i wasn't big on charmin for that exact reason

 

[njdevils1982]

Most of those names don't surprise me. Stepan kind of does.

Not that I think we should sign him, but wasn't he still pretty good very recently? Or does he have some injury, or hit a steep decline that I'm unaware of?

one of the greatest american players of all time unsigned?! ...what in the world is going on!

 

[My3Sons]

A related circular argument that is a favorite of mine: "Brodeur was only good because he played behind the trap." followed by "The trap only worked because Brodeur came out to play the puck so much."

They never seem to make the connection between the two.

I think Brodeur’s puck handling hurt his goaltending numbers. He was the main reason NJ only gave up 20 shots per game behind the trap. Dump and chase didn’t work and often led to counterattacking. My guess is that Brodeur would have faced several more weak shots per game had he stated in the net and let it play out in typical fashion. The opponent wasn’t getting to the front of the NJ net through Steven’s Daneyko etc. but maybe they get a few more one and done average chances that Brodeur can stop. At the rarefied air he and Hasek and Roy are in you are just splitting hairs anyway. Sure Brodeur was a system goalie but without him the system probably isn’t nearly as effective which gets back to your point about the circular argument. I’m just glad I got to watch him for years and the team took home three cups during his tenure and he’s a face of the franchise.

 

[Brodeur]

I can't help it but chime in on the main board thread. Definitely some Bill Simmons-esque takes on there.

"Devils clutched and grabbed!" -- So did everybody else. But if you're implying that they did it to a higher degree than everybody else, that must have meant they were one of the more penalized teams coming out of the lockout when refs were instructed to call every bit of obstruction. Devils were the least penalized team in three of the first five years coming out of the lockout. Brodeur's puckhandling diffused forechecks and helped our D.

"....but it was the system!" -- I went back and listed the primary Ds that Lou fielded post-lockout and boy were there some rough blue lines. Mike Mottau was brought in off the AHL scrap heap and played 20 minutes on his weak side (and that was one of the better ones). I had forgotten about the Sheldon Brookbank experience, almost every game I wondered how on earth he scored 50 points in the AHL the previous season.

 

[xigon]

lol.

 

[Bleedred]

The main board is always full of these weird, nonsensical takes. I’ve realized it’s on most teams and not just certain ones.

For instance, I remember that poll of which team would win the cup at the start of the finals, people voted Florida over Vegas by quite a bit over 50%.

Then after Vegas beat Florida, there were loads of posts about how Florida was in fact the weakest team we’ve seen in the cup finals in a very long time. Either two years is a very long time or they slept through 2021 or just didn’t follow hockey in 2021 when the Canadiens were in the Stanley Cup Finals. The same Canadiens that finished dead last the next season and picked first overall the next summer. The 2021 Canadiens had to be the weakest since the 2006 Oilers.

But some of the main board folk insisted that the 2023 Panthers were the weakest of the last 15-20 years.

 

[devilsblood]

I know pedantry, and I know that if I argued the same shit you were arguing there - something which I've certainly done - I would've pointed out 'oh, actually, double retention is really expensive so it's stupid to even consider it in this case'.

To pivot on a dime from one post arguing that Josh Anderson is a value at double retention to then get all huffy and sarcastic when I point out that no, he isn't, is why you are insufferable.

If you had followed along with the thread you would have seen posts like “I wouldn’t take him at 50% retention for free”. Ill take the liberty of speaking for Cangy here but his “double retention” post to which I responded certainly did not imply a 1st rounder going back the other way.

So i was merely responding to what was on the table. Which everyone would agree wasn’t a discussion about the Devils actually considering trading for Anderson. It was more along the lines of what I quoted above , that being “I wouldn’t take him for free”

You dropping into the discussion, with the 1st rnd return, (which is pure speculation on your part) is a perfect example of what you accuse me of.

 

[Triumph]

If you had followed along with the thread you would have seen posts like “I wouldn’t take him at 50% retention for free”. Ill take the liberty of speaking for Cangy here but his “double retention” post to which I responded certainly did not imply a 1st rounder going back the other way.

EDIT: No, it didn't, but it's the only thing that makes sense. Cangy was operating in a world where somehow Anderson is available at double retention for minimal cost. The thing is that while teams may misunderstand the value of a player, they know how to price dead cap space so you can't ever get that for free, at least not for more than one year.

So i was merely responding to what was on the table. Which everyone would agree wasn’t a discussion about the Devils actually considering trading for Anderson. It was more along the lines of what I quoted above , that being “I wouldn’t take him for free”

You dropping into the discussion, with the 1st rnd return, (which is pure speculation on your part) is a perfect example of what you accuse me of.

I guess I have to admit that you were right about dropping in wrongly since I explained the concept to you again that Cangy did, but it's not pure speculation on my part. You play dumb pretty well, but nobody picks up dead money without a serious inducement to do so.

 

[RyGuy]

lol.

I pretty much do that at least once a day. That or just completely butcher a legit handshake. Hands make me flustered I guess.

 

[Blackjack]

one of the greatest american players of all time unsigned?! ...what in the world is going on!

Was that Joe Micheletti? I’m trying to find the quote.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

Please tell me you didn’t see my initial reply before yours, im crying

Actually, I didn't.

 

[njdevils1982]

Was that Joe Micheletti? I’m trying to find the quote.

indeed it was

 

[Saugus]

Was that Joe Micheletti? I’m trying to find the quote.

I also remember him claiming once (and I believe it was in a preaseason game no less) that Del Zotto was sure to be a future Hall of Famer.

 

[My3Sons]

I also remember him claiming once (and I believe it was in a preaseason game no less) that Del Zotto was sure to be a future Hall of Famer.

Wow, I get that local announcers tend to be cheer leaders but hall of fame? For Del Zotto? That's a bit much. What's next, someone is going to say Ben Lovejoy was the best defensemen NJ ever iced? That's the sort of opinion that gets you committed as clearly a danger to yourself and others.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Was that Joe Micheletti? I’m trying to find the quote.

 

[Devils731]

I also remember him claiming once (and I believe it was in a preaseason game no less) that Del Zotto was sure to be a future Hall of Famer.

I believe there was a preseason game where the announce team was in agreement there would be multiple Norris trophies between Del Zotto and Matt Gilroy.

 

[Bleedred]

Matt Gilroy just turned 39 and has been out of the NHL for 10 years now. He hasn't been a full time NHL player in 11 years.

He wound up playing 50 fewer NHL regular season games than Will Butcher has so far.

Both are former Hobey Baker winners and both had pretty short NHL careers.

 

[Hisch13r]