Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II
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Ripshot 43
Registered User
- Jul 21, 2010
- 14,406
- 12,792
That sob better not be on any trampolines!
Lou is God
Registered User
Where is all this coming from? Did I miss something outside him playing beach volleyball.
MB3
Fire Tom Fitzgerald
- Jan 30, 2023
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bunch of videos of him partying at jersey shore nightclubs and acting hammered on the beach.
see also: things rich 22 year old boys do with their free time.
Broke 22 year olds have been known to get hammered on the beach too.
Ripshot 43
Registered User
- Jul 21, 2010
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i wouldn't mind if he is inducted in the hof before jon gillies.
- May 8, 2010
- 23,174
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You will be old too. Feel free to put me on ignore.
Devils731
Registered User
- Jun 23, 2008
- 13,597
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Since it’s just a blurb I think it’s fine to share this.
We know NJ has an open style management policy and appears to spend on their analytics group so it’s mildly interesting that NJ signed contracts all similar to the EvolvingWild model. Seems their models agree.
AfroThunder396
[citation needed]
I'm not normally a "kids these days don't understand" kind of poster, despite the fact that I'm withering away to dust now that I'm in my 30's. But as we get further and further away from his playing days, Marty's reputation is going to continue to decline. He's one of those players that stats can't adequately capture, you just simply had to watch him play to understand it.
Eggtimer
Registered User
It was his longevity / durability /consistency / ability to come up big in important games that will be forgotten or under rated . He also revolutionized the position with his ability to play the puck. But like you said , none of that is really displayed in stats.
I disagree for two reasons -
A: Nobody plays 70 games in a season anymore. Hellebucyk led the league in games played last year with 64 - Brodeur played more than that 13 times over his career. It will be the equivalent of pitching 300 innings in a season - something that used to be done but no longer is.
B: Goal scoring was trending down between 2006 and 2015 but has gone way up since then, so all of Brodeur's GAA numbers look God-like in comparison. He'll never have the SV% of Hasek, he was never as good as Hasek, but it's very hard to get a below 2 GAA - Ullmark did it with inhuman SV% last year and I don't think we'll see it again for a while.
- Jan 24, 2007
- 7,698
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I was thinking the opposite, in like 20-50 years people are gonna look at his career win totals and games played every year and be baffled. Like those pitchers from 120 years ago that have 30 wins and 400 innings pitched in a season. The strain of modern goaltending / elite athletics is just going to get more and more intense and the numbers will more and more eyepopping and always keep him in best of all time discussions.
KovalchukFistPump
Too lazy to change username
People don't understand the advantage that he provided A) with his puck skills and B) with the fact that you could pencil him in for 70-75 games and get whatever scrub backup goalie. He also took less money on his contract during the cap era.
AfroThunder396
[citation needed]
This is all correct of course, but I guess my point is that things like games played, wins, and GAA have far less weight to them than they did just 10 years ago. People only care about shooting data these days.
Shot quantity data does not flatter Brodeur for a variety of reasons, and shot quality data simply doesn't exist for most of his career. So people are left to speculate and fill in the gaps. Typically they fill in those gaps with "trap" and "Stevens/Niedermayer" and whatnot.
I think history will remember Brodeur more as a novelty than as one of the best to ever play. Any reasonable person should acknowledge that Hasek and many other were better at stopping pucks. But Marty was so much more than a puck stopper. People will continue to admire his durability and puck handling, but I think he'll largely be excluded from top-5/GOAT conversations going forward in favor of more "pure" goalies. I think his reputation will begin to sink in favor of goalies with prettier shot/save numbers, at least as long as the stats community stays in their current meta.
Considering how scorers from the 80s are propped up and scorers from the late 90s/early 2000s are looked down on - I think Marty will get his due in 50 years when everyone only has stats to look at.
Roy is the guy who will likely lose his shine because his numbers aren't that great due to playing a lot in the 80s.
Roy is the guy who will likely lose his shine because his numbers aren't that great due to playing a lot in the 80s.
- May 1, 2011
- 137,087
- 68,466
Taylor Hall's OT winner in 17-18?
I haven't clicked on it, but I recall that very vividly. I remember Ward not having control of the puck and I was YELLING and SCREAMING at the TV ''HE DOESN'T HAVE IT! PUT IT INNNNNNNNN!!!!'' before Hall realized it and got to it.
There are some OT goals that year that I just don't remember. I forgot all about Hall's OT winner vs Pittsburgh in the final few games of the season, until someone else had brought it up a few months back, but I do recall this one.
And if I'm not mistaken, I believe that game was also the very next night after the game in Tampa that Eddie Lack started and won, which I attended in person the night before.
EDIT - Never mind! It was Loktionov all the way back in 2013! I vaguely remember that. It was a soft goal on Cam Ward, who was still considered ''Elite'' by quite a few as of 2013, even though he was falling off the year before that.
Ward is seriously one of the most irrelevant Conn Smythe winners of all time. The guy he was a clone of from the 90's (Bill Ranford) was another. They both had pretty mediocre careers, but won a cup/Conn Smythe. Look at Conn Smythe winners since the 70's and almost all of them are either IN the HOF, WILL be in the HOF or were just barely out of the HOF like Claude Lemieux and Brad Richards.
Justin Williams is a bit of a rando name on there. He's had a good career and was better than Ward and Ranford, but also isn't HOF worthy. I think the most recent winner in Marchessault will likely go down the same way. two others goalies in Giguere and Hextall are both a bit rando, as in they won't be in the HOF, but I'd say both had better careers than Ward and Ranford. Hextall declined early. Giguere kind of did too, but had some solid years as a backup in his early through mid 30's. He just wasn't good enough to be a starter anymore.
Both Ward and Ranford were playing for years and years and years and years as really bad goalies before their retirements. I'm talking closer to a decade straight of poor play before hanging them up. Both of them declined so early that I don't even know if they really declined, but more that they just weren't any good. Ranford had one average or better than average season after he was 25 and played until he was 34. Ward had zero average or above average seasons after he was 28 and played until he was 35. Not to mention Ward's first few years of his career, not including that playoff run were nothing but suckage, before about 4 good years in a row, which then followed him returning to sucking for good.
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- Jan 24, 2007
- 7,698
- 8,441
I was curious so I asked myself If a hypothetical goalie had the most wins in the league each year, how many seasons would I have to go back to beat Brodeur's 691 career wins? This exercise includes COVID shortened seasons but Brodeur's career spans 3 lockouts so I'm ok with it.
So if a hypothetical goalie had the most wins in the league the last 17 years, he'd beat Martin Brodeur's 691 career wins number by 1. That number is just gonna seem crazier and crazier I think. Vasilevskiy is still 428 wins away at age 29.
| Year | Goalie Leader | Wins |
| 2022-23 | Linus Ullmark | 40 |
| 2021-22 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 39 |
| 2020-21 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 31 |
| 2019-20 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 35 |
| 2018-19 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 39 |
| 2017-18 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 44 |
| 2016-17 | Cam Talbot | 42 |
| 2015-16 | Braden Holtby | 48 |
| 2014-15 | Carey Price | 44 |
| 2013-14 | Semyon Varlamov | 41 |
| 2012-13 | Antti Niemi | 24 |
| 2011-12 | Pekka Rinne | 43 |
| 2010-11 | Carey Price | 38 |
| 2009-10 | Martin Brodeur* | 45 |
| 2008-09 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 45 |
| 2007-08 | Evgeni Nabokov | 46 |
| 2006-07 | Martin Brodeur* | 48 |
| TOTAL | 692 |
So if a hypothetical goalie had the most wins in the league the last 17 years, he'd beat Martin Brodeur's 691 career wins number by 1. That number is just gonna seem crazier and crazier I think. Vasilevskiy is still 428 wins away at age 29.
Better Call Sal
Salnalysis
He was my first favorite player and I think almost any Devil fan (except for the most cynical) knew at a certain age that they were witnessing one of the greatest to ever do it. Night in and night out.
It was easy to take for granted what we had with him in the net nearly every single night. And ever since he was gone, even as an avid Cory supporter, it's become more apparent how truly great Marty was.
I don't care how most pundits view him, he's a legend of the game. That is undeniable. And I'm happy he is back here where he belongs.
It was easy to take for granted what we had with him in the net nearly every single night. And ever since he was gone, even as an avid Cory supporter, it's become more apparent how truly great Marty was.
I don't care how most pundits view him, he's a legend of the game. That is undeniable. And I'm happy he is back here where he belongs.
- May 1, 2011
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Someone in that mainboard thread suggested that the ending of Brodeur's career (like his last few years of play, maybe combined with playing for another team) kind of ruined his legacy and made him a bit forgotten in the time since he's retired.
And while we could clearly tell we weren't watching the same Marty anymore by the end, he actually did hold up pretty well, especially compared to the current generation's goalies. Luongo is the only goalie since Marty to have held up as well as he did. He played well up until his last season in the league, but he met his decline roughly 1-1.5 years older than Marty was when he met his.
Even the guy across the river wasn't really holding up like he used to by 34-35, while Marty probably had arguably one of the best seasons in his career at 35, if not the best back to back seasons of his career at ages 34 and 35. Guys like Cory, Holtby, Rask, Bobrovsky, Price, were all noticably declining by 30 years old, if not earlier and many of them didn't see age 35 in the league or pro hockey. Rinne seemed to fall apart early, but then had one last reserve tank of gas that he used for about 3 years in his mid to late 30's.
Most of the guys sort of borderline Marty's generation (Nabokov, Kiprusoff, Vokoun) were either done with hockey by the age Marty started to decline or were even worse than he was by that point.
So my point is that he held up pretty well, all things considered, even if his last 4-4.5 seasons here were a twilight era. Roy retired before he could even have a decline season, but he played his last game at 37. Hasek had a similar ending to Marty, though his last several years were stronger than Marty's last several, but his last year was pretty bad and the last time he skated in-game on NHL ice was him getting yanked in the playoffs and losing his job to Osgood, winning the cup as a backup but never to play in the NHL again.
Belfour had that nasty 01-02 season that got him run out of Dallas and led to Turco overthrowing him, but seemed to have another tank in Toronto, similar to Rinne a few years back, but was a disaster coming back from the lockout, where he was 40 years old, to be fair. I've read Panthers fans rave about Belfour's year he played for them at age 41 in 06-07, but that was NOT at all a good season, especially considering he was right in between Luongo and Vokoun, who were both ELITE there, but the team was so awful it didn't matter. Belfour really wasn't NHL caliber anymore coming back from the lockout.
And while we could clearly tell we weren't watching the same Marty anymore by the end, he actually did hold up pretty well, especially compared to the current generation's goalies. Luongo is the only goalie since Marty to have held up as well as he did. He played well up until his last season in the league, but he met his decline roughly 1-1.5 years older than Marty was when he met his.
Even the guy across the river wasn't really holding up like he used to by 34-35, while Marty probably had arguably one of the best seasons in his career at 35, if not the best back to back seasons of his career at ages 34 and 35. Guys like Cory, Holtby, Rask, Bobrovsky, Price, were all noticably declining by 30 years old, if not earlier and many of them didn't see age 35 in the league or pro hockey. Rinne seemed to fall apart early, but then had one last reserve tank of gas that he used for about 3 years in his mid to late 30's.
Most of the guys sort of borderline Marty's generation (Nabokov, Kiprusoff, Vokoun) were either done with hockey by the age Marty started to decline or were even worse than he was by that point.
So my point is that he held up pretty well, all things considered, even if his last 4-4.5 seasons here were a twilight era. Roy retired before he could even have a decline season, but he played his last game at 37. Hasek had a similar ending to Marty, though his last several years were stronger than Marty's last several, but his last year was pretty bad and the last time he skated in-game on NHL ice was him getting yanked in the playoffs and losing his job to Osgood, winning the cup as a backup but never to play in the NHL again.
Belfour had that nasty 01-02 season that got him run out of Dallas and led to Turco overthrowing him, but seemed to have another tank in Toronto, similar to Rinne a few years back, but was a disaster coming back from the lockout, where he was 40 years old, to be fair. I've read Panthers fans rave about Belfour's year he played for them at age 41 in 06-07, but that was NOT at all a good season, especially considering he was right in between Luongo and Vokoun, who were both ELITE there, but the team was so awful it didn't matter. Belfour really wasn't NHL caliber anymore coming back from the lockout.
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