Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II
- Thread starter NJDevs26
- Start date
- Status
I was actually going to use him as an example myself. I could be wrong but I don’t think he was as highly regarded defensively as Casey is. I think he was seen more as an all offense guy.
ed: also, Casey scored almost twice as much as Butcher did in their respective D+1s, and their birthdays are only two days apart. Pronman’s ranking suggests his career will be similar despite the massive age adjusted gap.
I'd say it's maybe a Russia thing, but he likes Karpovich and even Bardakov.
I think this says that he likes Foote and Filmon more then we do. I'll admit Foote is a head scratcher. Slow footed with modest AHL stats. May not even have a spot in the lineup at 23. Where as Filmon is coming off a huge year, I can see some really thinking he has big upside. I think Filmon's draft position dings him on our board poll, but he has the pedigree of a much higher pick.
Devils731
Registered User
- Jun 23, 2008
- 12,948
- 18,414
I’m thinking the pro-Casey example we may know would be Andy Greene. Undersized guy that was good at both ends of the ice and the neutral zone but not the best at either. Casey is more tilted towards offense but I think that’s a general shift in hockey currently, so dealing in relatives I think it’s similar.
Greene also had trouble getting respect until he hit the NHL due to his size. Greene is bigger than Casey but the whole league was more physical back then so the relative size may be on a similar scale.
Casey’s agility separates him from Greene a bit because Casey has something to hang his hat on and say “I’m great at this” while Greene really could only hang his hat on his results.
Sure Casey is better then Butcher at that similar age.
But Butcher wasn't able to defend in the NHL, which was the point. Granted he was a lousy skater where as Casey's skating looks pretty good.
Butcher's issue is that his offense isn't good enough. He has a weak shot and rarely shoots the puck.
Didn't have a good shot, but his skating was his biggest issue. Took away from his offense. Skating and size both detracted from his ability to defend.
Zippy316
aka Zippo
I wonder if the Devils are going to have any PTOs at camp. I would imagine we see some depth forwards for Utica for some competition.
I had thought we would see a goalie PTO. We only have four healthy goalies on NHL contracts at the moment — VV, Schmid, Kallgren, and Brennan. NHL teams seem to like to carry six goalies in training camp, which I assume could be filled with the AHL guys in Jeremy Brodeur and Poulter.
I would think they would want another option for pre-season minutes, but the pool is pretty weak. Elliott, Halak, Khudobin, Hutchinson, Gillies, Berube, and C. Gibson are the only real options left and almost all of them are completely washed up. Halak is genuinely the best of the bunch, but also 38 years old.
Once teams realized he was both slow and small, it made him too easy to shut down offensively and too easy to expose defensively.
I had thought we would see a goalie PTO. We only have four healthy goalies on NHL contracts at the moment — VV, Schmid, Kallgren, and Brennan. NHL teams seem to like to carry six goalies in training camp, which I assume could be filled with the AHL guys in Jeremy Brodeur and Poulter.
I would think they would want another option for pre-season minutes, but the pool is pretty weak. Elliott, Halak, Khudobin, Hutchinson, Gillies, Berube, and C. Gibson are the only real options left and almost all of them are completely washed up. Halak is genuinely the best of the bunch, but also 38 years old.
I always thought he was a smart player both offensively and defensively. Just didn’t have the size, skating, or offensive tool kit to utilize it.
Once teams realized he was both slow and small, it made him too easy to shut down offensively and too easy to expose defensively.
Greene, Rafaski, Fox, Krug all translated to the NHL with no issue.
Guadana
Registered User
Pronman is a good read to know more about everyone, but he is nothing really good if you want to know something about specific player. He isn’t good in evaluating players. But he is good if we are talking about big amount of players. And even with specific players he is better than wheeler or button. And on my taste he is doing better job than he did few years ago- I don’t see real growth from other big writers,
For writers who is trying to watch most of the young players, can’t make good and deep analysis of every team and often you can read from Pronman the stuff you can read from poster on Twitter or hf boards - looks like he doesn’t know clearly what he is talking about.
Devils fans should not forget that Pronman didn’t really like Hughes and he looked like a fool when Jack started to rock in his third season.
Devils are top 2 team in u23 rankings. And Bedard, Reichel, Moore, Nazar and Korchinski can’t change it.
Last edited:
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
- 67,701
- 30,526
With the exception of Fox all of those Dmen were pretty thick...short yes but Greene was 190, Rafalski was 194, and Krug at only 5'9 is also 194... basically fire hydrants.
I completely agree. I’m posting my disagreements, but I have a lot of respect for Pronman.
Zippy316
aka Zippo
For undersized defenders, to me there’s three criteria that are important: hockey sense, skating, and offensive ability.
If two of those skill sets are average, one has to be elite. Ideally, you’d want all three to be closer to above average too which is what the higher end undersized guys have.
If any of those skill sets are below average, you’re looking at a real uphill battle to be anything more than a depth guy.
Not sure if they weighed that at 19, but point taken. Seamus might need some horizontal growth. He can come to me I can help him accomplish that very quickly.
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
- 67,701
- 30,526
I'm a fan of Casey and I think he has the talent to be NHL player...I am afraid his size could be a problem though. Hopefully he'll get a little thicker as he matures.
I’ll have to go back and check the old rankings to be sure, but i remember Pronman being VERY high on Hughes even after his rookie year made everyone question his upside.
With Pronman you always have to keep in mind how many players he’s attempting to evaluate. He’s basing these evaluations on draft day reports and then any major changes in development that he hears through the grapevine. To me it’s ludicrous that Mercer, Holtz, and Foote are all in the same “below average” skating tier. But realistically it’s not like any of those guys are suddenly blowing by defensemen and making headlines with their skating. And Pronman sure as hell isn’t watching 500 minutes of Mercer footage to re-grade his skills when he has 500 players to rank.
I like to look at it as “this is probably a good representation of how the league views these players.” Helps to keep in perspective that loads of Hamaneeho and Vilen-esque prospects wash out of the league every year.
With Pronman you always have to keep in mind how many players he’s attempting to evaluate. He’s basing these evaluations on draft day reports and then any major changes in development that he hears through the grapevine. To me it’s ludicrous that Mercer, Holtz, and Foote are all in the same “below average” skating tier. But realistically it’s not like any of those guys are suddenly blowing by defensemen and making headlines with their skating. And Pronman sure as hell isn’t watching 500 minutes of Mercer footage to re-grade his skills when he has 500 players to rank.
I like to look at it as “this is probably a good representation of how the league views these players.” Helps to keep in perspective that loads of Hamaneeho and Vilen-esque prospects wash out of the league every year.
I think some of it will be determined by his use of physics and his strength as opposed to just his weight. He had that big hit at the WJSS recently so he probably has a decent idea of how to use his lower base to offset his lack of weight. He’s obviously limited by his lack of reach but on NJ he only has to play a third pair role and maybe he has Bahl to play on the left to deal with the more physical element. I agree he might or might not translate but I give him a chance compared to even 10-15 years ago when I doubt he’d be effective.
Forge
Blissfully Mediocre
This has always been Wheeler more than Pronman to me. That's why Wheeler has always been high on guys like Zion Nybeck. He also had a Casey in his top 30 but Slaf as only #5. Pronman in contrast, had Casey just inside his top 50, I believe, slaf #1, etc.
I think that pronman just has his guys and he's slow to turn the boat on them. I think he was kind of down on Nemec relative to others and may explain why his blurb on Nemec is kind of uninspiring. He was also very, very big on Karpovich (viewed him as a top 50 player in this year's draft and higher than Hameenaho) which explains why he has them higher than both.
The one that kind of blows my mind is the ranking of Gritsyuk.
I'm not a Foote fan at all, so having Gritsyuk behind Foote is especially egregious to me (I would have have had Foote down outside of the top 10 and in the honorable mentioned type category)
Last edited:
billingtons ghost
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2010
- 10,689
- 7,055
Uh .. when I look back at the height/weight stuff before 2010 I'm pretty sure they measured everyone wearing skates and soaking wet after a practice or dunk tank. I can't imagine Rafalski and Krug being exactly the same.
But he was solid...
Poppy Whoa Sonnet
J'Accuse!
- Jan 24, 2007
- 7,611
- 8,271
Pronman has an impossible job, trying to be an expert on every team's prospect pool / and draft eligible prospects. The worst part is his readership is people who are more knowledgable than him about their particular team's pool or the individual draft eligible players, so he just generates grief and irritation as he will inevitably say something "off."
The signal to noise ratio just isn't high enough for me to read him anymore. Remember the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect next time you trust him on another team's prospect pool.
The signal to noise ratio just isn't high enough for me to read him anymore. Remember the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect next time you trust him on another team's prospect pool.
Eggtimer
Registered User
For every one of those guys there is 20 guys that were smaller D men with skill that didn’t make it and 4 examples of guys that made it doesn’t make it any easier for thinking Casey will make it
I’m not saying Casey cannot be a good -great NHL’er . I’m saying it is rare for a smaller D man to make it as an impactful NHL’er .
I’m hoping Casey can be like Spurgeon . Spurgeon is 5’9” and 165 lbs but still a very very good Dman . If Casey can develop the proper way to maximize routes to the puck and proper angle and getting proper position and effective stick , I think he can be a decent defender . His skating and hockey IQ is there .
I doubt that there were 80 sub 5’11 defensemen drafted at all in that timeframe.
NJ has drafted five defensemen under six feet in the last 20 years. Casey, Ethan Edwards (4th round), Jeremy Davies(7th round) Joe Faust - a dude out of high school in the 4th round in 2010, and Zach Tarkir in the 5th round in 2003.
You know what they’ve drafted heaps of? Mid round 6’1 - 6’4 guys that never did a thing. There’s more than a dozen.
Let's give Pronman a pass, folks. He's evaluating a HUGE amount of prospects. No one human can watch enough hockey to know all of them inside and out.
Pronman does a good job giving us a blueprint idea of what the prospects for each team generally look like and where they generally rank, so it's foolish for us to get caught up in specifics. Should Gritsyuk be rated higher? Absolutely, but I'm saying that as a guy who watches Gritsyuk more than any other player in the KHL. As a guy covering ALL the prospects for ALL the teams while ALSO scouting for the 2024 draft, I think Pronman did a marvelous job.
From a Devils standpoint, I give him extra props for singling out Karpovich and Bardakov, two absolutely top 10 Devils prospects who most "experts" know nothing about. On our own prospect rankings, we slighted both those guys in the rankings.
Pronman does a good job giving us a blueprint idea of what the prospects for each team generally look like and where they generally rank, so it's foolish for us to get caught up in specifics. Should Gritsyuk be rated higher? Absolutely, but I'm saying that as a guy who watches Gritsyuk more than any other player in the KHL. As a guy covering ALL the prospects for ALL the teams while ALSO scouting for the 2024 draft, I think Pronman did a marvelous job.
From a Devils standpoint, I give him extra props for singling out Karpovich and Bardakov, two absolutely top 10 Devils prospects who most "experts" know nothing about. On our own prospect rankings, we slighted both those guys in the rankings.
Maybe no human can do that but I have faith in you!!
- Status
