Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part II

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My3Sons

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Jack Han had an article or video on this as well (may have just been a twitter thread), saying having guys bunched up is not conducive to a fast breakout. The Devils often default to a strong side rim, so F2 in the diagram would sprint up and try to receive the puck. But it is predictable and easily picked off. Otherwise, they resort to a long flip out and have F2 and F3 in the diragram race to retrieve. It's not reliable though, and if picked off, they then have a huge gap between their forwards and defenseman + F1. I think this is why they've looked very vulnerable on opposition counterattacks/regroups.

The Devils' rush offense, IMO, doesn't come from anything schematic. The system actively hampers it. They just have such dynamic talents like Hughes and Bratt that can create a rush chance on their own. Lindy's systems are inefficient, and there is clearly a reason why no other team does this.

At times the scheme having the forwards fly the zone works. Sometimes a defender gets clean possession and a bit of room and the timing is there. We’ve seen plenty of stretch passes based on this but it’s inconsistent and if there is less space or the defender doesn’t have a clean handle there is not gong to be forward support if things go wrong. Again to my eyes Ruff is not adjusting to a young defense that needs more support and at this point he’s only got one breakaway forward anyway. Maybe it’s some sort of big picture thing based on the idea that you force Luke Nemec Bahl and Holtz to do this and it will work next year when the full roster is healthy?🎶
 

HBK27

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I saw your post late last night and I am definitely one of the people who are "vastly uninformed on this matter"...

With that, I went and watched the two videos from the Fifth Estate on Team Canada. Stayed up until 3:30am watching.

My first reaction was this is an exposé type of program, which doesn't negate any of their content but their videos all do have a certain slant of "exposing a dark underbelly"... again doesn't discredit anything but it's fairly obvious that anything they do is done with a certain narrative. Going back to 89' or 2003 in the context of this case is an obvious crafting of a narrative that is completely irrelevant to facts of this case. In some regards I do think that discredits the massager, not totally but enough to raise an eyebrow and question the motives of the piece.

2nd thing...I think the videos didn't add much to this specific case and was really more of an indictment on Team Canada and hockey culture in general...If anything, they raised more questions regarding consent in this specific case.

And in the end, it's fairly obvious that "consent" will be the defining issue for the courts to settle.

I just went and just watched the video as well. I had read articles about the case, but this definitely provides some different perspective, even if there's not much new information.

The piece may be slanted in a certain direction, but at least for me touching on the sheer number of alleged group sexual assault cases among Junior Canadian players (which not directly having a bearing on this case) changes my perspective a bit on this particular case - especially, the alleged details of the 2003 team, which I had not heard before. While I never found the alleged victim in this case to not be credible, it was (and still is to a certain degree) difficult to fathom that 10-12 players (which the video all alleged were in the room at some point that night) were all either a clear sexual assault or witnessed it and did nothing to stop it. We're talking about people that have the brightest of futures, which they've been working for their whole lives, and are on the verge of doing something millions of people can only dream about in playing in the NHL, let alone the WJC's. To think that even just one of those players on the team was willing to risk throwing that all away, let alone 5...8...10...12...again, difficult to wrap my head around. That's not to say I thought these guys were innocent, but that maybe there was some more nuance to this than a simplistic "these guys are just monsters" narrative, but maybe I was just being naïve and underestimated how bad hockey (sports? group?) culture can be in some instances. The whole aspect of these guys even wanting to be part of what happened in that hotel room that night even if she had consented to everything is something that not remotely appealing to me either, so this is a completely different world than I'm used to - I only played sports until my junior year of high school, but I was in a fraternity in college and nothing like that was going on to the best of my knowledge.

The fact that Hockey Canada never did anything to try to stop stuff like this (let alone the cover-ups, hush money, etc.) is also deeply disturbing.

Sorry to mix this in with some quality hockey talk, but this is where this topic currently resides (though I think it should be a different thread).
 

guitarguyvic

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Jack Han had an article or video on this as well (may have just been a twitter thread), saying having guys bunched up is not conducive to a fast breakout. The Devils often default to a strong side rim, so F2 in the diagram would sprint up and try to receive the puck. But it is predictable and easily picked off. Otherwise, they resort to a long flip out and have F2 and F3 in the diragram race to retrieve. It's not reliable though, and if picked off, they then have a huge gap between their forwards and defenseman + F1. I think this is why they've looked very vulnerable on opposition counterattacks/regroups.

The Devils' rush offense, IMO, doesn't come from anything schematic. The system actively hampers it. They just have such dynamic talents like Hughes and Bratt that can create a rush chance on their own. Lindy's systems are inefficient, and there is clearly a reason why no other team does this.
It’s garbage, this is what I’m always trying to convey. Whether we have injuries or not, whether the team finds ways to win individual games, it doesn’t matter. Foundationally, this is not a system that a team with cup aspirations should be employing. And it certainly isn’t maximizing the team’s collective potential.

I guess we could debate if it makes sense to get to turf Ruff now or just stick with him for the year given all the turmoil this season. But all the turmoil doesn’t take away the fact that this team needs a new coach badly.
 
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bossram

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It’s garbage, this is what I’m always trying to convey. Whether we have injuries or not, whether the team finds ways to win individual games, it doesn’t matter. Foundationally, this is not a system that a team with cup aspirations should be employing. And it certainly isn’t maximizing the team’s collective potential.

I guess we could debate if it makes sense to get to turf Ruff now or just stick with him for the year given all the turmoil this season. But all the turmoil doesn’t take away the fact that this team needs a new coach badly.
Turf Lindy ASAP. I've been on that position for two seasons.
 

Devils731

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The Devils' rush offense, IMO, doesn't come from anything schematic. The system actively hampers it. They just have such dynamic talents like Hughes and Bratt that can create a rush chance on their own. Lindy's systems are inefficient, and there is clearly a reason why no other team does this.
That’s such a frustrating aspect to how the Devils play.

The offensive numbers are there but I do believe they’re actually hurt by how the Devils play. Since players have little support on the breakout it does often become needing a player to make a special play to get the puck up ice.

Imagine how much more damage Bratt and Hughes would do if they had 2 passing options on the breakout instead of the opponent collapsing 1-3 forwards on them bc they have no passing options. Hughes and Bratt are so good that sometimes it doesn’t matter how the opponent tries to stop them but if they’re not having a good night then the Devils become pretty easy to stifle.

I think this also leads to players trying to be superheroes and make ridiculously high risk plays. Players know they either try a high risk play and maybe succeed/fail or almost certainly fail. So the players often choose the high risk play because at least that has some upside if they try it.

I just imagine it’s very frustrating being a NJD player right now. You probably want to be a team player but the team gets stuffed when strictly playing the team’s game so you freestyle a bit to make things happen. When good things happen people cheer for you and when bad things happen from it they call you an idiot who shouldn’t try to force those high risk plays.

There have certainly been many posts explaining and critiquing Lindy's "Swarm" defensive zone scheme over the past couple years. I was one of them. I also posted this diagram by former Leaf employee/Marlies video coach and now public analyst/consultant Jack Han:

View attachment 813169

The Swarm is a system that no other team runs. No other team has a default system where they want both defensemen to engage behind the net/on the wall. It requires a lot of reads from the defensemen, F1, and F3. And if there is a quick change-of-side play from the offense, then all the Devils players are kinda caught and the weakside has a ton of space.
I sent a few messages back and forth with Han when he was at the game to diagram out the system.

My impression was he was flabbergasted that the Devils chose to play this way. A couple of tweets in the vein of “why would you do it that way?”
 

glenwo2

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Just saw this tweet from Wysh that says the court case likely won't take place until 2026. I saw other people referencing that date in here, but didn't realize that was a realistic scenario.

If these guys are out of hockey through mid / end of 2026, that could be it for their careers - regardless of the outcome.



Given how difficult it is to bring a prosecution in cases like this, the fact that there's a case at all sends some pretty strong signals that what happened was bad. And, of course, these guys probably only have careers because of how long it took to bring the case against them in the first place. And, their careers are going to allow them far more resources to defend themselves than they would have had four or five years ago.

Just looking at this as a procedural thing, though, if someone is accused of a crime and it takes years from when they are charged to when the case goes to trial, should they lose their career before they even get to defend themselves? I assume Bettman would evaluate on a case by case basis. Probably an assault charge is treated differently than group sexual assault.


I think even if the trial took place TODAY, their careers are over, regardless of outcome.

This is the type of thing you do NOT come back from.

The next time any of these people play Professionial Hockey, they'll be speaking Russian (KHL).
 

HBK27

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We need an updated 2024 version of that video.

With a bunch of stuff about all the injuries, Vitek can’t stop a beach ball, “Even Rogalski is still here” in place of the “Even Conte is still here” part from the 2015 one. So much good potential material there. You could even have a line about how the owners decided to quickly have a press conference for Fitz’s extension as soon as the McLeod stuff was coming out.

This is a good video regarding this season from earlier this month that someone here posted...a bit dated though, given this past week's events.

 

HBK27

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Here's an article link as well:




1706727505452.png


I find this part hard to believe....sure, maybe some teams wanted to see if he'd come work out for them so they can gauge what kind of game shape he's in or see if he's interested in a PTO, but I doubt teams are offering to sign him sight unseen after he's been out of the league a couple years.

Wasn't much of a Subban fan when he was here, but might not be the worst idea if he's open to being a 7th defenseman and can still play.
 
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NjDevsRR

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My last post on the matter…

Some of you still don’t get it. Even if the 5 are found not guilty in a court of law this is still so bad. Best case scenario is they intentionally got a girl drunk at the bar and “legally” gangbanged her. Made her make consent videos. Then with Hockey Canada using a shady slush fund to make it go away…

THATS THE BEST CASE SCENARIO

Sorry but no decent person looks at that and thinks it’s not predatory and vile by the players and an abuse of power by Hockey Canada.


Literally exactly why many of us were “celebrating” McLeod goals on here for the past year with sarcastic clapping gifs. It’s been uncomfortable rooting for him.


There should be no place for this culture on our team, in the NHL and in hockey as a whole.
 
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tailfins

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I think even if the trial took place TODAY, their careers are over, regardless of outcome.

This is the type of thing you do NOT come back from.

The next time any of these people play Professionial Hockey, they'll be speaking Russian (KHL).
I have no issue with that.

And, I guess my point is moot - these things are always case by case. If (when) the next thing happens, it'll be evaluated and dealt with hopefully in the best way.
 

My3Sons

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View attachment 813201

I find this part hard to believe....sure, maybe some teams wanted to see if he'd come work out for them so they can gauge what kind of game shape he's in or see if he's interested in a PTO, but I doubt teams are offering to sign him sight unseen after he's been out of the league a couple years.

Wasn't much of a Subban fan when he was here, but might not be the worst idea if he's open to being a 7th defenseman and can still play.
How slow do you think he'd be at this point?
 
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JimEIV

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My last post on the matter…

Some of you still don’t get it. Even if the 5 are found not guilty in a court of law this is still so bad. Best case scenario is they intentionally got a girl drunk at the bar and “legally” gangbanged her. Made her make consent videos. Then with Hockey Canada using a shady slush fund to make it go away…

THATS THE BEST CASE SCENARIO

Sorry but no decent person looks at that and doesn’t think it’s predatory and vile by the players and an abuse of power by Hockey Canada.


Literally exactly why many of us were “celebrating” McLeod goals on here for the past year with sarcastic clapping gifs. It’s been uncomfortable rooting for him.


There should be no place for this culture on our team, in the NHL and in hockey as a whole.
I think everyone gets it. I think everyone is in agreement that this is reprehensible behavior.
 

NjDevsRR

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View attachment 813201

I find this part hard to believe....sure, maybe some teams wanted to see if he'd come work out for them so they can gauge what kind of game shape he's in or see if he's interested in a PTO, but I doubt teams are offering to sign him sight unseen after he's been out of the league a couple years.

Wasn't much of a Subban fan when he was here, but might not be the worst idea if he's open to being a 7th defenseman and can still play.
maybe AHL teams asked haha
 

JimEIV

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I'll always have a soft spot for PK, and I'm glad that he lets his Devils ties out in the spotlight. Was a joy to watch him go at it with Messier during the playoff series last year.

He'll always be a favorite of mine, even if he wasn't the player he once was when he got here.
Seems like a good guy and fun to be around but his acquisition was just plain dumb.

His legs were showing the signs two years before he got here... I'm still dumbfounded how often this happens and how NHL professionals don't see this or perhaps they're just gambling on the expiration date? I don't know but it was a terrible move for New Jersey.
 

TheUnseenHand

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Seems like a good guy and fun to be around but his acquisition was just plain dumb.

His legs were showing the signs two years before he got here... I'm still dumbfounded how often this happens and how NHL professionals don't see this or perhaps they're just gambling on the expiration date? I don't know but it was a terrible move for New Jersey.

Terrible move for NJ might depend on your perspective. He no doubt brought attention to the team and was exceptionally marketable. And is now our biggest hype man. That probably translates to dollars for the team, even if it didn't translate to more wins.
 
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