Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part II

[Bleedred]

I already miss Devils hockey.

Why do I do this to myself.

I absolutely do not. But only because I know it’s a short break.

If we knew we weren’t gonna get to see any Devils hockey for the next 5-6 months then I’d probably feel the same way.

But I really needed this break.

 

[Call Me Al]

oh i’m relishing the break. hopefully they come back with a little more focus and effort because the last month and change has been a slog. it’s felt like a chore to watch this team play uninspired, bad hockey

 

[Devils Trap]

I absolutely do not. But only because I know it’s a short break.

If we knew we weren’t gonna get to see any Devils hockey for the next 5-6 months then I’d probably feel the same way.

But I really needed this break.

We, as a fanbase and as a team needed this break.

10 days off for the amount of injuries we have is huge. Jack probably could be back by now but the extra long break gives him more time to be 100%.

Siegs is closer to returning, so is Nosek and Smith. Once those are done it just leaves Dougie who wont be back unless we make the playoffs.

 

[forceten]

Nosek isn't our 3C solution but he's probably underrated as a key piece of this year's team. I thought his signing was excellent and he's key for the fourth line.

 

[glenwo2]

You might be thinking of 2022 when it looked like Bratt would be the representative because Jack had missed so much time in the beginning of the year, but they took Hughes anyway.

This is probably what HBK was thinking of.

Good call.

 

[glenwo2]

it’s actually hilarious how being an all star for us is apparently a kiss of death injury wise. so next year who will fill in for bratt?

So who is going to play the role of Brady Tkachuk in the game then?

He was the one who injured Jack last Allstar game.

I personally think Jesper is so shifty, anyone would have a tough time trying to deliberately injure him in the event.

 

[glenwo2]

Oh brother...the puns...

 

[Rhodes 81]

never heard about the 9+2 thing but thinking back to my decades of soccer playing it makes sense....if we were out 2 key players (usually mids and forwards) our offence was f***ed....

our D was a force and we were legit 6 deep for a 4 man back system for years. also helped that half of us D could play up in the formation and be fine but with less attack

Yeah, it's not telling you anything you don't know already, mostly just providing some criteria to measure how to evaluate injuries affecting a team. If you have one injury as a hockey team, even if it's to your top guy, but everyone else is fine then it probably isn't because of injuries that you're losing. I first saw it bandied about in an Atlanta United discord server a couple of years ago where they were just getting decimated by injuries, including multiple season-enders. The conclusion was basically that they sucked, but it was hard to really tell how bad because they only had 9+2 or better for about 5 out of 30 games that year.

I haven't gone through and actually figured it out, but it has to be less than 10% of our games played to this point where we had some combination of our top 13-14 forwards and 7 D on the roster to start the year. It's simply not possible to properly execute any system consistently given that.

Hockey is a game where you don’t need a complicated system….any sport for that matter

Keep it simple players are at their best when they are reacting and not thinking

I agree to an extent that simple systems can be fine, but if you tell players to just go out there and play with no structure that's abysmal. We've had a coach in recent history who had a system that was too simple and wound up just looking like a bunch of guys going out and skating aimlessly. You need defined ways to move the puck out of the defensive zone and to enter the offensive zone, you need to understand what you want to do with possession in the offensive zone and how you want to try to open up opportunities, you need to know how you're defending in the neutral zone. I think the happy medium is somewhere between what Ruff does and a straight up man to man defensive coverage and freewheeling on offense.

You have a pretty good handle on the system but there is more of 3 forwards than centers and wingers in the defensive zone.

It is pretty rare for teams to have both defenseman leave the crease like this because the likeliest outcomes are the crease isn’t defended, it’s defended by a forward who isn’t good at it, and/or the defender came later than the offensive player and the offensive player now has superior positioning.

So take a puck that is in the corner. Defenseman 1 will engage directly with the puck. Defenseman 2 will engage and support. Forward 1 will also engage and support but from a foot away to try and anticipate where the puck will come out. Forward 2 will sit against the halfboards on the side the puck is. Forward 3 owns the slot. The entire rest of the ice is nobodies responsibility.

This system is a good idea if your defenseman can rapidly engage and recover the puck, winning that initial puck battle almost immediately. If you don’t win the puck almost immediately then you’re in for a bad time as the offensive players away from the puck have a lot of space and a good view of the defense so they can pick the weak spots. Also, the forwards are either near the puck or in the slot and all standing still so it can be very hard to breakout clean if the other team forechecks. Other teams often aggressively forecheck with 1-3 guys and allow the other 2 to stay in the zone passively forechecking and the Devils don’t have an answer to that except when a player can skate it out themselves.

The bolded is a key difference between this year and last year, imo. Severson in particular was great at this, but missing Hamilton has hurt as well. Both of them can pick a pass and spring a rush when they have the puck.

The swarm bit itself is not totally abnormal. Some other teams do run it in doses and many teams default to a version with a forward and D pressuring the puck. Many of our D-zone breakdowns this year have also been completely unrelated to the swarm and more due to the D making bad reads trying to make outlet passes, or the forwards being worse at receiving passes and generating controlled exits to take back possession. The support D is also supposed to disengage after the rest of the opponents establish positioning in the zone to help cover the slot or the pass behind the net and that hasn't happened as quickly this year either. This is where the lack of experience in the system hurts. Last year, Severson, Graves, Hamilton, Seigenthaler, and Bahl all had at least a bit of experience in the system. Smith and Marino were newcomers but they both had pro experience at least, and Marino has a lot of the attributes that make for a good D in the system.

There's also the caveat that this is only the system in the D zone, and there's a lot of decisions and defensive responsibility on the forwards' part in the offensive and neutral zones that ideally keep the other team on their heals and keep them from breaking out quickly. When that is happening more consistently, they only end up attacking with one or two forwards at first and it is easier to either break up their rush in the neutral zone or for the swarm to gain control in a safer environment before the other team gets numbers into the attack. That all requires forwards and D that are working together seamlessly in the offensive and neutral zones, another area that is crippled with so much lineup inconsistency.

 

[devilsfan950003]

Nosek isn't our 3C solution but he's probably underrated as a key piece of this year's team. I thought his signing was excellent and he's key for the fourth line.

Boston fans were disappointed they didn't re-sign Nosek, especially how the devils signed him to a cheap contract. I thought devils signed Nosek as a McLeod replacement. Nosek will never come close McLeod's speed, but he's good at face-offs. He's a solid fourth-line defensive forward.

 

[Zippy316]

If Hughes and Nosek are set to return after the break, this team could finally look formidable. With Flyers slipping of late, the third spot in the metro is definitely up for grabs.

I would imagine Haula or Lazar move to 3C, Jack slides into 2C, and Nosek plays 4C. Aside from Lazar at 3C, everyone definitely is an a role they should succeed.

Palat - Hischier - Bratt
Toffoli - Hughes - Mercer
Meier - Haula - Holtz
Bastian - Nosek - Lazar

That’s a pretty solid forward core. If Siegenthaler or Smith can return soon, Nemec seems like he’s been able to carry them on the first pairing too. Allows us to slot Bahl (or Hatakka) with Miller and Luke with Marino and hopefully run three solid pairings.

 

[JimEIV]

Yikes, some posters here are vastly uninformed on this matter and really need to see the extensive investigation that went into this which was reported by the fifth estate. Such an eye opening report that it caused law enforcement to reopen this case.

The incident is disgusting. The slush fund created to cover this up and other incidents is worse.

I saw your post late last night and I am definitely one of the people who are "vastly uninformed on this matter"...

With that, I went and watched the two videos from the Fifth Estate on Team Canada. Stayed up until 3:30am watching.

My first reaction was this is an exposé type of program, which doesn't negate any of their content but their videos all do have a certain slant of "exposing a dark underbelly"... again doesn't discredit anything but it's fairly obvious that anything they do is done with a certain narrative. Going back to 89' or 2003 in the context of this case is an obvious crafting of a narrative that is completely irrelevant to facts of this case. In some regards I do think that discredits the messenger, not totally but enough to raise an eyebrow and question the motives of the piece.

2nd thing...I think the videos didn't add much to this specific case and was really more of an indictment on Team Canada and hockey culture in general...If anything, they raised more questions regarding consent in this specific case.

And in the end, it's fairly obvious that "consent" will be the defining issue for the courts to settle.

 

[Devils Trap]

If Hughes and Nosek are set to return after the break, this team could finally look formidable. With Flyers slipping of late, the third spot in the metro is definitely up for grabs.

I would imagine Haula or Lazar move to 3C, Jack slides into 2C, and Nosek plays 4C. Aside from Lazar at 3C, everyone definitely is an a role they should succeed.

Palat - Hischier - Bratt
Toffoli - Hughes - Mercer
Meier - Haula - Holtz
Bastian - Nosek - Lazar

That’s a pretty solid forward core. If Siegenthaler or Smith can return soon, Nemec seems like he’s been able to carry them on the first pairing too. Allows us to slot Bahl (or Hatakka) with Miller and Luke with Marino and hopefully run three solid pairings.

Lol @ Holtz 3rd line. Good luck with that

 

[R8Devs]

Lol @ Holtz 3rd line. Good luck with that

I think he played more in the top 9 when the Devils had more bodies than without. Lindy is probably less worried about matchups with guys in the lineup so he doesn't mind starting him higher in the lineup.

I think you'd have to give an extended run of Meier-Hischier out though. If they're actually winning late in games you could make the switch of Palat and Meier for defensive reasons.

Meier-Hischier-Bratt
Toffoli-Hughes-Mercer
Palat-Haula-Holtz
Nosek/Lazar-Nosek/Lazar-Bastian

If Mercer and Meier could get back to last season form they could run Meier-Hischier-Mercer and have Bratt with Hughes but for now they could start with that.

 

[Devils Trap]

I think he played more in the top 9 when the Devils had more bodies than without. Lindy is probably less worried about matchups with guys in the lineup so he doesn't mind starting him higher in the lineup.

I think you'd have to give an extended run of Meier-Hischier out though. If they're actually winning late in games you could make the switch of Palat and Meier for defensive reasons.

Meier-Hischier-Bratt
Toffoli-Hughes-Mercer
Palat-Haula-Holtz
Nosek/Lazar-Nosek/Lazar-Bastian

If Mercer and Meier could get back to last season form they could run Meier-Hischier-Mercer and have Bratt with Hughes but for now they could start with that.

Thats my ideal lineup. Meier HAS to be with Nico for his best success

Bratt with Jack, Nico with Timo. Dont mind if Toffoli or Mercer are on which line

 

[My3Sons]

Thats my ideal lineup. Meier HAS to be with Nico for his best success

Bratt with Jack, Nico with Timo. Dont mind if Toffoli or Mercer are on which line

Why drop Meier to the third line?

 

[Devils Trap]

Why drop Meier to the third line?

 

[My3Sons]

View attachment 813154

OK, that is a very unflattering picture of me.

 

[Bleedred]

We need an updated 2024 version of that video.

With a bunch of stuff about all the injuries, Vitek can’t stop a beach ball, “Even Rogalski is still here” in place of the “Even Conte is still here” part from the 2015 one. So much good potential material there. You could even have a line about how the owners decided to quickly have a press conference for Fitz’s extension as soon as the McLeod stuff was coming out.

 

[bossram]

I’ve been hearing this for at least 2 seasons now and I wish I understood with some specificity what the system is. It has been said I think that we send both defensemen behind the net when the puck is battled for back there and charge the center with covering the net front and yeah I’ve seen that. But how rare is that really compared to what other teams do? And what are the forwards responsibilities?

I also remember seeing our forwards flying up ice at the first sign we have recovered possession but that was more last year than this.

So in the end I still don’t specifically know what our system is and how it departs from “normal” and I think it’s weird that after all this time nobody had deciphered it better either on this board nor, more tellingly, among all the talking heads and commentators in all their analyses on TV broadcasts and hockey tonight stuff.

Football analysts are much more lucid at explaining whats going on in their sport than hockey guys are here I guess.

There have certainly been many posts explaining and critiquing Lindy's "Swarm" defensive zone scheme over the past couple years. I was one of them. I also posted this diagram by former Leaf employee/Marlies video coach and now public analyst/consultant Jack Han:

The Swarm is a system that no other team runs. No other team has a default system where they want both defensemen to engage behind the net/on the wall. It requires a lot of reads from the defensemen, F1, and F3. And if there is a quick change-of-side play from the offense, then all the Devils players are kinda caught and the weakside has a ton of space.

 

[Camille the Eel]

There have certainly been many posts explaining and critiquing Lindy's "Swarm" defensive zone scheme over the past couple years. I was one of them. I also posted this diagram by former Leaf employee/Marlies video coach and now public analyst/consultant Jack Han:

View attachment 813169

The Swarm is a system that no other team runs. No other team has a default system where they want both defenseman to engage behind the net/on the wall. It requires a lot of reads from the defensemen, F1, and F3. And if there is a quick change-of-side play from the offense, then all the Devils players are kinda caught and the weakside has a ton of space.

Thank you for this. The schematic makes it clear. And the curious thing is running this at the same time that the team is trying to run a fast break offense. The break sure isn’t coming from here unless the forwards take great risks and the D is super competent to take possession back themselves.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

The way I see it the Devils are in trouble even with Hughes and Siegs getting closer to returning, They might have too many holes that they need to fill for midseason deals.
They need a bottom 6 center, a stay at home D and at least a new goalie if not 2.

I've put a lot of thought into who I'd ideally like to see in net and I keep coming back to MAF. He'd be cheaper than Gibson or Markstrom. He's marginally better than VV and he's not under contract for next season which gives them another shot at getting a legit starter in the offseason.

I think Rico or Wennberg are ideal target to replace McLeod assuming they can get either cheap enough but I haven't a clue who to get on the back end that won't break the bank.

I think NJ will once again be hunting for bargains, at least until they know the outcome of the conditions of the pick they traded.

 

[theoptimist]

There’s no goal without the high effort assist. Whether McLeod scored or not, the effort from Palat was the constant.

He did it again for Holtz against Washington (at home).

 

[tailfins]

Just saw this tweet from Wysh that says the court case likely won't take place until 2026. I saw other people referencing that date in here, but didn't realize that was a realistic scenario.

If these guys are out of hockey through mid / end of 2026, that could be it for their careers - regardless of the outcome.



Given how difficult it is to bring a prosecution in cases like this, the fact that there's a case at all sends some pretty strong signals that what happened was bad. And, of course, these guys probably only have careers because of how long it took to bring the case against them in the first place. And, their careers are going to allow them far more resources to defend themselves than they would have had four or five years ago.

Just looking at this as a procedural thing, though, if someone is accused of a crime and it takes years from when they are charged to when the case goes to trial, should they lose their career before they even get to defend themselves? I assume Bettman would evaluate on a case by case basis. Probably an assault charge is treated differently than group sexual assault.

 

[bossram]

Thank you for this. The schematic makes it clear. And the curious thing is running this at the same time that the team is trying to run a fast break offense. The break sure isn’t coming from here unless the forwards take great risks and the D is super competent to take possession back themselves.

Jack Han had an article or video on this as well (may have just been a twitter thread), saying having guys bunched up is not conducive to a fast breakout. The Devils often default to a strong side rim, so F2 in the diagram would sprint up and try to receive the puck. But it is predictable and easily picked off. Otherwise, they resort to a long flip out and have F2 and F3 in the diragram race to retrieve. It's not reliable though, and if picked off, they then have a huge gap between their forwards and defenseman + F1. I think this is why they've looked very vulnerable on opposition counterattacks/regroups.

The Devils' rush offense, IMO, doesn't come from anything schematic. The system actively hampers it. They just have such dynamic talents like Hughes and Bratt that can create a rush chance on their own. Lindy's systems are inefficient, and there is clearly a reason why no other team does this.

 

[Devils Trap]

The way I see it the Devils are in trouble even with Hughes and Siegs getting closer to returning, They might have too many holes that they need to fill for midseason deals.
They need a bottom 6 center, a stay at home D and at least a new goalie if not 2.

I've put a lot of thought into who I'd ideally like to see in net and I keep coming back to MAF. He'd be cheaper than Gibson or Markstrom. He's marginally better than VV and he's not under contract for next season which gives them another shot at getting a legit starter in the offseason.

I think Rico or Wennberg are ideal target to replace McLeod assuming they can get either cheap enough but I haven't a clue who to get on the back end that won't break the bank.

I think NJ will once again be hunting for bargains, at least until they know the outcome of the conditions of the pick they traded.

I doubt MAF goes to a team in the Metro. Hence how he negated a trade to WSH was it??