Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part II

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Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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The system is already simple for defense. Thats where the majority of the injuries are coming from. He's correct to keep using the current system when almost an entire team of defensemen are missing.

You can argue that he should have changed the system when Hughes and Hischier were both out at the same time though.
The defensive system is very complicated. Siegenthaler called it the most complicated system he ever played and didn’t feel he got a hold of it conceptually until next years training camp.

Some of the reads both the defenseman and forwards make contradict what their instincts say are good hockey so I think that’s tough to get by.
 

Camille the Eel

Registered User
The defensive system is very complicated. Siegenthaler called it the most complicated system he ever played and didn’t feel he got a hold of it conceptually until next years training camp.

Some of the reads both the defenseman and forwards make contradict what their instincts say are good hockey so I think that’s tough to get by.
I’ve been hearing this for at least 2 seasons now and I wish I understood with some specificity what the system is. It has been said I think that we send both defensemen behind the net when the puck is battled for back there and charge the center with covering the net front and yeah I’ve seen that. But how rare is that really compared to what other teams do? And what are the forwards responsibilities?

I also remember seeing our forwards flying up ice at the first sign we have recovered possession but that was more last year than this.

So in the end I still don’t specifically know what our system is and how it departs from “normal” and I think it’s weird that after all this time nobody had deciphered it better either on this board nor, more tellingly, among all the talking heads and commentators in all their analyses on TV broadcasts and hockey tonight stuff.

Football analysts are much more lucid at explaining whats going on in their sport than hockey guys are here I guess.
 

Devs3cups

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I quoted a million messages since Sunday and then decided to just summarize my thoughts in monologue form instead.

Every fan base in the league blames coaching for some flaw in their team. You can look through all the other team forums here and see that plainly. Coaches always get blame for losses and players always get credit for wins, and it's always driven by results rather than how the team actually played.

There's a theory I've seen used in soccer discussion called the 9+2 theory. Essentially, soccer is a weak-link sport because scoring almost comes exclusively from a mistake. Two teams try to force each other to make a mistake over and over again until one screws up and then there is a chance for a goal. Hockey is very similar, but there is more randomness due to the higher difficulty of controlling the puck, the greater chance for rebounds and odd bounces, and the smaller playing surface. That said, goals usually come from scoring chances, which usually come from either a great individual effort by the attacking team, a mistake by the defending team, a lucky bounce, or a combination of all three. Soccer is closer to a chess match and tactics matter more than in hockey, but in both cases it's all about trying to create moments where you are able to catch your opponents making a mistake. Again, hockey has the added variable that more events occur in a game due to a variety of factors

Where 9+2 comes into this is with the personnel. Basically in soccer you have your best 11 players, and then of course you make substitutions at some point but usually the first 60 minutes of the game is played with your best 11. The idea is that you can usually play with 10 of your best 11 + 1 replacement and the drop off shouldn't be too perceptible. Once you get to 9 of your best 11 + 2 replacements, you become noticeably worse. Once you're down to 8+3 or worse, you have to completely shift the way you play the game at a tactical level, usually hamstringing the other players in the process as they have to alter their play to make up for deficiencies, don't get the ball as quickly as they usually would, or whatever else.

To apply this to hockey, you're probably looking at any game where you have to dip outside of your top 13 forwards and top 7 D as a 9+2 scenario, and anything where you go beyond that as 8+3. Once you're there, the effectiveness of your other players is tangibly impacted. Even 5 plays a game that are not executed optimally can be the difference in a 10-possession swing and that can easily add up to multiple goal scoring opportunities lost and multiple more given up.

More bluntly, Hischier is going to perform better when Jack Hughes is in the lineup drawing more matchups and creating more possessions, tilting more ice, tiring out the other team on D and generating more shots. Either of them is going to perform better when they are backed up 3rd and 4th lines that are capable of being dominant and doing the same. Bratt, Mercer, Meier, and Toffoli are all going to perform better when they are all being centered by elite NHLers instead of NHL 3rd/4th liners and AHL callups. Kevin Bahl is going to do better when he's playing a 3rd pairing role like last year instead of munching defensive minutes against the opponent's top lines. Same goes for Hughes and Nemec, they would make fewer mistakes in more sheltered roles. We haven't had that luxury this year. We've had multiple stretches now where we've been down half or all of our top D pair, multiple scoring forwards, and depth forwards as well. You simply can't expect everyone else to not be affected by 5+ callups in the lineup, even when one of those is Nemec. Particularly when so many of those injuries are to the spine of the team in centers and D. My point:

This team was still very good when Nico and Jack were playing. Maybe winning too much off individual talent to some eyes, but that's part of what wins games and why you have talented players in the first place. And that's also considering many people thought Jack wasn;t playing well in that entire stretch.

I've said numerous times that I actually like Ruff's system, even if I don't think they'll win a cup with it. I recognize it requires a lot on the mental side of the game but I truly believe it gives you an edge when done well. It never had a chance in hell of working right with this many replacement players and rookie D. If I have a great criticism of Ruff, it's that he seemingly hasn't simplified things enough to compensate for not having his 10+1 lineup. I know people want to criticize his attitude or the slow starts or whatever, I still maintain a professional athlete needs to get themselves going, there should be vocal leaders in the room that hype up the team more organically than the geriatric coach coming in screaming. But I've always responded much better to calm and steady management rather than rah rah jokers anyway. We can complain about lines and Holtz' usage and all that, but every coach has someone they play less than fans think they should. We've seen that here with the last 3 coaches that all got blamed for an insufficient roster (Hynes was actually bad though).

I just don't see a coach getting fired until we're complete no-shows for 5+ games in a row. Fitz has not given any indication that he makes emotional decisions based on a few games positive or negative. He has more insight than this board into what Ruff is actually doing, how he's working with players and if the players are playing the way they're being asked. I promise you, Fitz is in a better spot and more qualified to evaluate the coaching than anyone posting here. I would probably make a change in the offseason, but I don't have half the insight he does.

It seems like it's a matter of games before we have Hughes and Nosek back. No idea what happened with Haula and why he hasn't been playing center much this year, but if he is back as well, we suddenly have 4 centers that should match up favorably with the opponent's equivalent lines, and we know we have wingers that can be successful. I want to see how much pressure that might take off of the defense and how we look overall at that point. Will having a healthy forward group for essentially the first time all season help the young D, or will they continue to make individual mistakes? That's the big question.

Losing Graves and Severson hurt. You can tell me all you want about how Nemec and Luke are already better than then, and in a vacuum that may well be true, but for all the heat those two took here they both fit this system very well and had veteran savvy that Hughes and Nemec are still developing. They also both ate a bunch of PK minutes, and the lack of good PK D has been an issue all season. It's why Smith got as much run as he has, it's why Nemec is being tasked with it from the jump instead of working his way in, it scrambles the usage up whenever we got to the PK because we can't spread the minutes out as much. It's been a problem. We knew it was a calculated risk going into the season with the youth on D, but we needed Marino and Siegenthaler to play up to their previous level, we needed Hamilton to eat a lot of minutes, and we needed the goalies to not let in every f***ing half decent shot on net. None of those have happened. To me, the youth on D is the greatest individual contributor to the wild inconsistency we've seen this year. Next is the goaltending, then the injuries, then the natural risks of this system, then the bad matchups and excessive minutes played due to injuries.

I just don't think the team is as much bad as they are inconsistent. On aggregate they've still been quite competitive this year, particularly considering who they've been missing. I've said it before and I'll say again, I think you could run the same team back next year and compete for the division again, coaches included. Make a couple smart moves, hopefully upgrade goal and I'm not worried about a thing moving forward.

I spent like 30 minutes typing this instead of working, oy vey.
Extremely solid post, thanks for sharing! I think you're right on basically everything here. Bookmarked for when I go on an emotional low because of the team lol.
 

Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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Hockey is a game where you don’t need a complicated system….any sport for that matter

Keep it simple players are at their best when they are reacting and not thinking
Agreed. Game moves so fast at the professional level you need your players reacting quickly.

I think the strongest coaches end up with simple systems with strong philosophical underpinnings. The philosophy lets the players understand the whys of the system at an instinctual level and lets them play with confidence and little thought.
 

Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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I’ve been hearing this for at least 2 seasons now and I wish I understood with some specificity what the system is. It has been said I think that we send both defensemen behind the net when the puck is battled for back there and charge the center with covering the net front and yeah I’ve seen that. But how rare is that really compared to what other teams do? And what are the forwards responsibilities?
You have a pretty good handle on the system but there is more of 3 forwards than centers and wingers in the defensive zone.

It is pretty rare for teams to have both defenseman leave the crease like this because the likeliest outcomes are the crease isn’t defended, it’s defended by a forward who isn’t good at it, and/or the defender came later than the offensive player and the offensive player now has superior positioning.

So take a puck that is in the corner. Defenseman 1 will engage directly with the puck. Defenseman 2 will engage and support. Forward 1 will also engage and support but from a foot away to try and anticipate where the puck will come out. Forward 2 will sit against the halfboards on the side the puck is. Forward 3 owns the slot. The entire rest of the ice is nobodies responsibility.

This system is a good idea if your defenseman can rapidly engage and recover the puck, winning that initial puck battle almost immediately. If you don’t win the puck almost immediately then you’re in for a bad time as the offensive players away from the puck have a lot of space and a good view of the defense so they can pick the weak spots. Also, the forwards are either near the puck or in the slot and all standing still so it can be very hard to breakout clean if the other team forechecks. Other teams often aggressively forecheck with 1-3 guys and allow the other 2 to stay in the zone passively forechecking and the Devils don’t have an answer to that except when a player can skate it out themselves.
 

Whaddagoal

The Sheldon Keefe Era Begins
Nov 28, 2005
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I hope we get healthy soon.

Jack
Smith
Siegenthaler.

Also if the team is serious for a playoff push still, they have to replace McLeod spot with a tangible 3C.

Nosek isn't going to cut it.

I wasn't truly onboard the idea of ever bringing Henrique back when it was randomally brought up over the recent years, but somehow since all the news recently, it actually really makes sense to me. I don't know how he'd do in this system ( I remember us complaining about his foot speed even right before we traded him) but I would welcome Adam back with full pomp and support!
 
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My3Sons

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You have a pretty good handle on the system but there is more of 3 forwards than centers and wingers in the defensive zone.

It is pretty rare for teams to have both defenseman leave the crease like this because the likeliest outcomes are the crease isn’t defended, it’s defended by a forward who isn’t good at it, and/or the defender came later than the offensive player and the offensive player now has superior positioning.

So take a puck that is in the corner. Defenseman 1 will engage directly with the puck. Defenseman 2 will engage and support. Forward 1 will also engage and support but from a foot away to try and anticipate where the puck will come out. Forward 2 will sit against the halfboards on the side the puck is. Forward 3 owns the slot. The entire rest of the ice is nobodies responsibility.

This system is a good idea if your defenseman can rapidly engage and recover the puck, winning that initial puck battle almost immediately. If you don’t win the puck almost immediately then you’re in for a bad time as the offensive players away from the puck have a lot of space and a good view of the defense so they can pick the weak spots. Also, the forwards are either near the puck or in the slot and all standing still so it can be very hard to breakout clean if the other team forechecks. Other teams often aggressively forecheck with 1-3 guys and allow the other 2 to stay in the zone passively forechecking and the Devils don’t have an answer to that except when a player can skate it out themselves.

You missed in central idea. The swarm should surround the puck with so many players that it cannot be retrieved. I see this system run to perfection in U-9 lacrosse when the ball inevitably falls out the back when someone tries to shoot.
 

billingtons ghost

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We’re a bad team and not looking to be good anytime soon. The last thing we should be trading is second round picks, and we’re already missing our ‘24 second
I think this is overly pessimistic.

We are a talented team. Draft picks get you more talent.

What we need is players using their heads and talent together to work as a team within a system.

That will happen as some of these guys mature. There are lessons for everyone to learn, but clearly Jack, Nico, Bratt, McLeod, Mercer, Marino, Siegs, and even Lazar and Holz have moved along the curve. Ideally Meier, Hamilton, Palat, Haula and Toffoli should bring what they were expected to bring: vet presence and specific roles.

Luke and Nemec have just started their journey so not much should be expected of them this year.

That means we need the vets to do their job, or replace them with better vets, and we need another solid defender, a couple of top nine fwds with some size, speed and playoff experience and a 1a goalie we can rely upon... And for the coaching staff too get them to gel and execute the system.

I think we're positioned beautifully as the window opens, but there are certainly big questions about the way we play the game and our vets.
 

ZachaFlockaFlame

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Aug 24, 2020
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We’re a bad team and not looking to be good anytime soon. The last thing we should be trading is second round picks, and we’re already missing our ‘24 second

Ok I shit on this team a ton but this simply isn't true lol. The fixes can be easily done, the entire roster is arguably constructed perfectly to a tee in the modern era. We have the centers, wings, dmen. Just missing an adequate coach and a goalie
 

glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
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From a Sixth-rounder (and on his way to the OHL) to AllStar today.

What a journey and what an accomplishment (no matter how it happened). :clap::clap::clap:

giphy.gif
 

billingtons ghost

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Nov 29, 2010
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Hockey is a game where you don’t need a complicated system….any sport for that matter

Keep it simple players are at their best when they are reacting and not thinking
I think that simply depends upon if you have the personnel with enough talent/skill/abilities and experience to execute it.

I think last year we had all of those, and this year we are lacking the experience on the backend and lost a pair of key pieces.
 

HBK27

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Who were the Devils All-Star reps the past few seasons? For some reason, I thought Bratt had already gone to an All-Star game as a fill-in for another injured player.
 

theoptimist

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Apr 22, 2014
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It’s the goal that matters, not the high effort assist. It will be a bitter moment to remember until our next run. Without another run, Palat will have the same impact as Havlat, Clowe, Ryder, Stafford, Cammaelleri….nada….

Actually, I take back Cammalleri
 

Clam Jensen

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It’s the goal that matters, not the high effort assist. It will be a bitter moment to remember until our next run. Without another run, Palat will have the same impact as Havlat, Clowe, Ryder, Stafford, Cammaelleri….nada….

Actually, I take back Cammalleri
There’s no goal without the high effort assist. Whether McLeod scored or not, the effort from Palat was the constant.
 

glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
Oct 18, 2008
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Who were the Devils All-Star reps the past few seasons? For some reason, I thought Bratt had already gone to an All-Star game as a fill-in for another injured player.

Nope.


Bratt, a 25-year-old Swede, is an All-Star for the first time.

EDIT : So apparently, my word and the link stating the answer you're looking for (well the 2nd half of your statement anyway) was not enough for some reason. Okay then. :p:
 
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HBK27

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Jack, Hall, Nico, Schneider is all I can remember

I think I'm confusing Bratt with Nico, who filled in for an injured Palmieri in the 2020 All Star game.

Seems that Palmieri filled in for an injured Taylor Hall in the 2019 game.

Boyle was our 2018 representative, filling in for an injured Hall - who was our representative in 2017.

Schneider in 2016, Elias in 2015...then no All-Star game until back in 2012, when Henrique & Larsson both withdrew to injury as the lockout and winter Olympics cancelled the 2013 & 2014 events.

No idea why I went down that rabbit hole (OK, it was to procrastinate)...
 

Triumph

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I think I'm confusing Bratt with Nico, who filled in for an injured Palmieri in the 2020 All Star game.

You might be thinking of 2022 when it looked like Bratt would be the representative because Jack had missed so much time in the beginning of the year, but they took Hughes anyway.
 
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Call Me Al

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I think I'm confusing Bratt with Nico, who filled in for an injured Palmieri in the 2020 All Star game.

Seems that Palmieri filled in for an injured Taylor Hall in the 2019 game.

Boyle was our 2018 representative, filling in for an injured Hall - who was our representative in 2017.

Schneider in 2016, Elias in 2015...then no All-Star game until back in 2012, when Henrique & Larsson both withdrew to injury as the lockout and winter Olympics cancelled the 2013 & 2014 events.

No idea why I went down that rabbit hole (OK, it was to procrastinate)...
it’s actually hilarious how being an all star for us is apparently a kiss of death injury wise. so next year who will fill in for bratt?
 

Whaddagoal

The Sheldon Keefe Era Begins
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Isn't the easy answer here Haula? Except for the fact that Lindy doesn't like him centering his own line, for whatever reason.

I guess more what I meant is for bringing good depth back to our roster.

Sure haula can fill it. I agree.

But we need to replace McLeod with someone equal or better. He was practically our 3C.
 
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