Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season begins!

[RNCDevil]

I worry that we are breaking these players, playing some system that just does no work. This team cannot recover from a turnover. There's always two people going to a puck carrier leaving someone open in a dangerous position. They overpass like crazy.

This has been such a frustrating year with the only adjustments being a couple new d-pairings and benching Holtz.

Who is playing above expectations this year beside McLeod? Bastian stinks. Timo stinks (but maybe improving), Bratt, Hischier, Hughes, Palat are probably at expectations. Toffoli seems like a liablity when he's not shooting. Siegs, Marino have taken steps back.

Is that ALL on those players?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Must be a total coincidence that the D looked like shit in 21-22 and 23-24.

And I have to say...I don't think the D looked otherworldly last year either. More like average and we caught lightning in a bottle with VV and Shmid. In the end it wasn't sustainable, hence what we saw in the playoffs and now this year.

 

[theoptimist]

I guess that’s a little contradictory. But I mean I don’t think he’s as big or important of a piece as I think a lot of fans were hoping. Still worrying locking up and keeping around

I might need another season for Mercer. Would you trade him for a goaltender?

 

[Guttersniped]

Another reason why anyone who blames this being a transition year with 2 rookie dmen is clueless because they're actively outplaying the veterans. They get anything from Siegs/Marino from last year and the defensive core is passable

Siegenthaler hasn’t been very good but Marino has it tougher with Bahl.


Someone posted Sieg’s micro stats. Here’s all the available micro stats for all the defenseman for the last two seasons. (Nemec isn’t available yet.)

Spoiler: Micro Stats 2022-23 vs 2023-24

John Marino 2022-23

John Marino Playoffs 2022-23

John Marino 2023-24

Kevin Bahl 2022-23

Kevin Bahl Playoffs 2022-23

Kevin Bahl 2023-24

Ryan Graves 2022-23

Ryan Graves Playoffs 2022-23

Ryan Graves 2023-24

Jonas Siegenthaler 2022-23

Jonas Siegenthaler Playoffs 2022-23

Jonas Siegenthaler 2023-24

Dougie Hamilton 2022-23

Dougie Hamilton Playoffs 2022-23

Dougie Hamilton 2023-24

Brendan Smith 2022-23

Brendan Smith 2023-24

Luke Hughes 2022-23
N/A
Luke Hughes Playoffs 2022-23
N/A
Luke Hughes 2023-24

Damon Severson 2022-23

Damon Severson Playoffs 2022-23

Damon Severson 2023-24

Colin Miller 2022-23

Colin Miller Playoffs 2022-23

Colin Miller 2023-24
N/A

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I might need another season for Mercer. Would you trade him for a goaltender?

That was meant to be a worth locking up and keeping around not a worrying.

I wouldn’t necessarily. But that’s because I’m pretty against trading valuable assets for goalies given how unpredictable they are. But at the same time if it was a top goalie like Hellebuyck I’d consider it. That’s kind what I mean. Not sure he’s a core player who’s close to untradeable. That’s reserved for (Hughes, Hischier, Bratt, and probably Nemec, L.Hughes, and Meier (if he can get back to his best).

 

[Bleedred]

Vitek is a complete nutcase at this point. No one wants to play in front of him, no one really wants to see him and I'm certain he doesn't wanna play behind any of them.

The Adam Erne goal (AHL BUM with his first goal of the season) was excruciatingly bad after getting scored on 2 times in a minute before that and he deserves at least some blame on the sixth goal.

Everyone plays scared in front of him. It's like that dickhead parent (or someone in your life) that makes you nervous when you're just getting your license. Or some other asshole back seat driver when you're a new driver and you're afraid you're gonna hit a parked car or take out a pedestrian any second, because you got some asshole just doing nothing but killing your nerves. This is not something that bothers me today, but it sure did when I was 16-17.

 

[palek1019]

When people are talking about the defense and singling guys out, it bothers me. It's a unit. A unit that lost two guys who ate plenty of meaningful minutes in Graves and Severson, and has since lost a 3rd in Dougie. It takes time to grow accustomed to one another, and to read and react off each other. To think it just happens right away is hopeful at best.

Just because they are the more experienced players doesn't mean that their increased responsibilities as a result of the changes to the unit itself doesn't wear on them in some capacity. Doesn't mean that you can't be disappointed in how they've performed, but it's a very real factor. Siegenthaler has been the most disappointing to me. Bahl has struggled, but I expected that could happen and I feel Marino has attempted to cover for him a great deal given they've largely been paired together.

Hopefully Miller's return will help stabilize things a bit. Maybe allow him and Luke to stay together, and move Bahl with Nemec and Siegenthaler with Marino? What could it hurt?

Yeah it's been a tough season for them. From the start, it's an adjustment with the Graves/Sevs losses. But losing Dougie at this time makes the adjustment even harder on the rest. We can see the struggles and it just looks like they're overwhelmed. Teams see that and they press knowing the team will fold and that the goalies, unfortunately, are what they are. I mean, if my stupid ass can see that all you need to do against the Devils is pressure them even just a teensy bit, professionals are.

I think this is when the coach needs to make a change to the system to simplify things more. System works when everything is clicking and team is healthy. But right now, it seems like it's a season where things just aren't going right. They're second guessing and overthinking, which probably happens with this kind of a system where things have to be locked in perfectly for it to work effectively. Once something is off, it's a catastrophic meltdown. Either needs a system change or a focus on coaching the team on maintaining composure when shit isn't going right.

I dunno. I'm accepting that this season may be a further step back than anticipated at the start (I thought they would take at least a step back). And it may end up resulting in the team getting smacked in the face and brought down to reality. But there's also time left and they aren't in the gutter and could turn things around. Who knows.

 

[Billdo]

The fact of the matter is that almost every advanced metric has this pointing directly at goaltending being the most significant issue. The defensive metrics show the team actually be quite good but they're saving way less than expected across all situations. Obviously these aren't 100% reliable stats but they are significant. The goalies have sucked. Sure there are tons of defensive lapses but it's still probably a 90% goaltending issue. We cannot let this go on any longer if they want to make the playoffs.

 

[guitarguyvic]

The fact of the matter is that almost every advanced metric has this pointing directly at goaltending being the most significant issue. The defensive metrics show the team actually be quite good but they're saving way less than expected across all situations. Obviously these aren't 100% reliable stats but they are significant. The goalies have sucked. Sure there are tons of defensive lapses but it's still probably a 90% goaltending issue. We cannot let this go on any longer if they want to make the playoffs.

LOL the team is not "quite good" in front of these goalies and there is no way you can pin just 10% of the blame on the skaters. I'm sorry but that's absurd. Just look at what's going on on the goals last night...bordering on certifiably insane to say the skaters have been good. If you told me it was like 60/40 or 50/50 blame then OK I might at least consider it.

Like I've said before, I actually wouldn't mind Fitz grabbing someone that people think will be average just for the sake of seeing how far we can take this argument if the new guy also stinks.

 

[RememberTheName]

BLENDER IS BACK BABY f*** YEAH

 

[Blackjack]

The fact of the matter is that almost every advanced metric has this pointing directly at goaltending being the most significant issue. The defensive metrics show the team actually be quite good but they're saving way less than expected across all situations. Obviously these aren't 100% reliable stats but they are significant. The goalies have sucked. Sure there are tons of defensive lapses but it's still probably a 90% goaltending issue. We cannot let this go on any longer if they want to make the playoffs.

Yeah, but what do you do? Vitek and Schmid were both solid if a bit mediocre goaltenders last year, and this year the wheels fall off.

There are two main reasons most of us were okay with Fitz going with them this year. First, they were generally average goaltenders, and second, there were no compelling options on the FA or trade market.

So who do you get? Another average goalie? Why shouldn’t we expect the same type of catastrophic collapse? A top goalie? Who’s available?

 

[guitarguyvic]

The goalies looked good enough and gave up a less goals in those handful of games when everyone agrees the team looked like they tightened up in their own end and NZ. Must be just another coincidence.

 

[Guttersniped]

I worry that we are breaking these players, playing some system that just does no work. This team cannot recover from a turnover. There's always two people going to a puck carrier leaving someone open in a dangerous position. They overpass like crazy.

This has been such a frustrating year with the only adjustments being a couple new d-pairings and benching Holtz.

Who is playing above expectations this year beside McLeod? Bastian stinks. Timo stinks (but maybe improving), Bratt, Hischier, Hughes, Palat are probably at expectations. Toffoli seems like a liablity when he's not shooting. Siegs, Marino have taken steps back.

Is that ALL on those players?

Toffoli isn’t a liability?

Since I busted out those micro-stats:

Toffoli 2022-23

Toffoli 2023-24

How about Haula?
Haula 2022-23

Haula Playoffs 2022-23

Haula 2023-24

 

[Better Call Sal]

I don't see Lazar lasting there very long, but you never know lol.

I do like Bratt being back with Jack and Toffoli, and I liked what Meier-McLeod-Mercer did together. Flip Holtz and Lazar and I'm on board. And Bastian in for Tierney, of course.

I do find it amusing the defensive pairings weren't touched. I assume Miller will go back in for Smith, but maybe I'm a fool.

 

[Bleedred]

The goalies looked good enough and gave up a less goals in those handful of games when everyone agrees the team looked like they tightened up in their own end and NZ. Must be just another coincidence.

They did, but I wonder if we had to sacrifice offense for that?

There were games earlier where the team played well defensively and we scored a ton, like the Pittsburgh game and the last Buffalo blowout game.

But the recent games? It felt we struggled to generate much of anything ourselves in the Boston and Philly games.

 

[Blackjack]

Toffoli isn’t a liability?

Since I busted out those micro-stats:

Toffoli 2022-23
View attachment 788724
Toffoli 2023-24
View attachment 788723

How about Haula?
Haula 2022-23
View attachment 788728
Haula Playoffs 2022-23
View attachment 788727
Haula 2023-24
View attachment 788729

I hope Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny defeat the aliens

 

[njdevil26]

I am officially team "Fire the coach"

Obviously this team has a ton of issues with goaltending being at the top, but let's take this back to game 1 for a second.

How many times has the other team scored first? How many times has this team come out absolutely flat and without urgency, physicality, and speed? Last year this team took the entire league by surprise in the first period of like every game. That has happened a total of 2/3 times this year.

To me this is something that should have been solved by the end of October and it hasn't gotten any better.

Bad loss to the Capitals in October, next game Buffalo scores first.
Bad loss to Colorado 11/7, next game Washington is up 3-0 in the third at home (2-0 in the first)
Bad home loss to Washington, head to Winnipeg and lose 6-3 (down 2-0 in the second)
Embarrassing home loss to the Rangers, head to Detroit and lose 4-0, THEN come home and lose 2-1 to Columbus.

Last week, BAD loss at home to Anaheim, come back with that shocking overtime loss to Philly, the team then reacts by going down 2-0 in the first few minutes to Edmonton last night.... which is almost a tale of two games. Devils go up 3-2 THEN get absolutely blitzed in the third.

The bad starts have not been cured... they almost never lose then come out the next game with any urgency whatsoever.

Yes, the goaltending is putrid, yes, Jack is oddly playing poorly and Bratt/Toffoli are not filling the net. Meier is still injured and trying to play through it..

But to me, the bad starts ESPECIALLY after coming off bad losses to me is absolutely shocking and that's what I will get Ruff fired.

Either no one is listening to him in the locker room, or whatever is being preached just "ain't it"

This team plays hockey like it's a practice session and the other team is not even on the ice and it is so frustrating we are over 30 games in and nothing has been improved upon.

 

[Satans Hockey]

I am officially team "Fire the coach"

Obviously this team has a ton of issues with goaltending being at the top, but let's take this back to game 1 for a second.

How many times has the other team scored first? How many times has this team come out absolutely flat and without urgency, physicality, and speed? Last year this team took the entire league by surprise in the first period of like every game. That has happened a total of 2/3 times this year.

To me this is something that should have been solved by the end of October and it hasn't gotten any better.

Bad loss to the Capitals in October, next game Buffalo scores first.
Bad loss to Colorado 11/7, next game Washington is up 3-0 in the third at home (2-0 in the first)
Bad home loss to Washington, head to Winnipeg and lose 6-3 (down 2-0 in the second)
Embarrassing home loss to the Rangers, head to Detroit and lose 4-0, THEN come home and lose 2-1 to Columbus.

Last week, BAD loss at home to Anaheim, come back with that shocking overtime loss to Philly, the team then reacts by going down 2-0 in the first few minutes to Edmonton last night.... which is almost a tale of two games. Devils go up 3-2 THEN get absolutely blitzed in the third.

The bad starts have not been cured... they almost never lose then come out the next game with any urgency whatsoever.

Yes, the goaltending is putrid, yes, Jack is oddly playing poorly and Bratt/Toffoli are not filling the net. Meier is still injured and trying to play through it..

But to me, the bad starts ESPECIALLY after coming off bad losses to me is absolutely shocking and that's what I will get Ruff fired.

Either no one is listening to him in the locker room, or whatever is being preached just "ain't it"

This team plays hockey like it's a practice session and the other team is not even on the ice and it is so frustrating we are over 30 games in and nothing has been improved upon.

Just to pile on to this but I feel like we have taken way more too many men on the ice penalties since Ruff took over years ago. With it happening over the course of several seasons that means it's not just the players but something behind the bench as well.

 

[Guttersniped]

Yeah, but what do you do? Vitek and Schmid were both solid if a bit mediocre goaltenders last year, and this year the wheels fall off.

There are two main reasons most of us were okay with Fitz going with them this year. First, they were generally average goaltenders, and second, there were no compelling options on the FA or trade market.

So who do you get? Another average goalie? Why shouldn’t we expect the same type of catastrophic collapse? A top goalie? Who’s available?

Schmid played 18 games last year, starting in 14, in the regular season. He had a nice run in the playoffs but that was 9 games with 8 starts.

That doesn’t tell you a ton about what we could expect the next season, he’s still developing. He should be in Utica since he’s struggling and that’s normal for a goalie at his age with his history.

And with Vanecek, bad seasons after a solid or even very good one happen with goalies.

I’m sure Toronto thought Samsonov would be better.

The same with the Avs and Georgiev.

Even Dallas and Oettinger.

We most definitely got other issues but goalies aren’t pieces of equipment that have no individual effect on the game.

And no one is voicing an optimistic plan for an instant goalie replacement? We know no one is available and there’s a number of teams that would be interested if someone decent was actually available.

If a team’s goalie stats only reflected their team’s defense then the Hurricanes have the worst team defense in the NHL. I don’t believe that’s true though.

 

[RememberTheName]

I wonder if Sal would have any interest in hopping behind the bench. Obviously would be a crazy jump in roles for him but he has been around the team a lot and clearly is a very smart, well spoken guy and knows his shit about the game. Don't know if he could be a permanent fix but I think he could potentially be able to instill some semblance of a better d-zone structure in these guys for a shorter time period.

 

[Guttersniped]

I hope Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny defeat the aliens

I don’t know what that means but sure.

 

[NJDevs26]

Who are the three worst?! Carolina, Edmonton, ???

And I’d still like to see the explanation for the same two goalies play going down dramatically. If it were just Vitek you could attribute it to the playoffs but Schmid too?!

 

[ninetyeight]

Much better, Bratt has to be with Hughes. I don't mind Lazar in the 2nd, although I'd probably have Mercer or Holtz there instead. I'd definitely scratch Tierney, have Smith instead of him as a forward and Miller as #6D.

 

[Guttersniped]

I wonder if Sal would have any interest in hopping behind the bench. Obviously would be a crazy jump in roles for him but he has been around the team a lot and clearly is a very smart, well spoken guy and knows his shit about the game. Don't know if he could be a permanent fix but I think he could potentially be able to instill some semblance of a better d-zone structure in these guys for a shorter time period.

I’m pretty sure he’s said he doesn’t want to coach and likes his job (while coaching kids). I agree that he could potentially make a good one though.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Schmid played 18 games last year, starting in 14, in the regular season. He had a nice run in the playoffs but that was 9 games with 8 starts.

That doesn’t tell you a ton about what we could expect the next season, he’s still developing. He should be in Utica since he’s struggling and that’s normal for a goalie at his age with his history.

And with Vanecek, bad seasons after a solid or even very good one happen with goalies.

I’m sure Toronto thought Samsonov would be better.
View attachment 788736View attachment 788735


The same with the Avs and Georgiev.
View attachment 788736
View attachment 788738

Even Dallas and Oettinger.
View attachment 788741View attachment 788740

We most definitely got other issues but goalies aren’t pieces of equipment that have no individual effect on the game.

And no one is voicing an optimistic plan for an instant goalie replacement? We know no one is available and there’s a number of teams that would be interested if someone decent was actually available.

If a team’s goalie stats only reflected their team’s defense then the Hurricanes have the worst team defense in the NHL. I don’t believe that’s true though.

The Hurricanes are a known entity defensively, so it’s a lot easier to identify that the goalie is mostly to blame there. Historically they have had plenty of JAG goalies who put up better than average numbers thanks to their defense. This is not what the devils are, so there’s no comparison to be made there whatsoever.

It’s not as simple saying “goalie on team A is bad and has bad stats, therefore the goalie on B who has similar stats must be exactly as bad as goalie A.” This would be doing the opposite of what you’re saying - making it seem like the skaters have no impact on goalie performance.