Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part II

[Emperoreddy]

I wouldn't say "unquestionably better". Graves in his last year in NJ, was better defensively than Luke Hughes last year. Graves also played a key role on PK.

However, I expect Luke Hughes to continually to get better on defense. He is certaintly not a finished product yet.

Graves was not a good player for the Devils in his final year at 5v5

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah having Luke and Nemec as 1/3 of our defense for a majority of the season was not good. They're talented rookies and they will continue to grow, but growing pains are a thing and we got to experience them this past season. Luke was downright brutal to watch for like half the season.

I hope a new coach and a smarter system will help them.

It really wasn't that bad at all, it's massively overstated and gives a pass to the real issues on the blueline.

Dougie getting hurt, Siegs being borderline replacement level, Marino regressing, and Smith being one of the worst players in the league were the actual D issues on this team.

Luke and Nemec were pulling their weight. The vets were not.

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

i read some of the posts on here and just shake my head. i’m very relieved fitz seems to understand that our window is as open as we want it to be right now.

So we can will it into existence by just making a trade and believing its cup or bust...Doesn't work that way ...Hopefully we got the right coach now add some heavier harder to play against fwds like a Trenin or DeBrusk and a Noeson type ....This is still a young team no need to panic

 

[JimEIV]

Most of those players either aren’t very good or hardly matter.

Severson was probably a loss. Having him on the bottom pair was a real luxury. We did the right thing in no re-signing him though.

Graves was meh, Vitek sucks, Wood is better than a lot of the 4th liners we ended the season with, but Wood at 6 years for anything sucks. 23-24 McLeod was better than 22-23 McLeod and a huge loss in 23-24. However, he wasn’t that good in 22-23 and was probably going to get overpaid because of what he did for 60 games last year. Guy is a rapist, so f*** him anyway.

Sharangovich had a pretty good season last year and was good for us in 22-23, but he was no longer a regular by probably a little over halfway into the season from what I remember.

22-23 Tatar was the best we realistically were ever going to get out of him at this point in his career. He clearly wasn’t as good the year before that, nor was he anywhere near as good last year for two different teams.

Boqvist was never of too much consequence here. Produced like a good borderline 3rd liner his last two years here. We probably could have used him this past year.

Severson may have been the biggest loss. McLeod from the playoff year was nothing special, he was a bigger loss last year. McLeod from the playoff year was definitely better than a lot of the 4th liners we had in the lineup by the end of the year in 23-24 though. And so was Miles Wood. Maybe Boqvist.

You're missing the point....that post is meaningless.... it's not who those players are, it's what we replaced them with.

Now do what we used to replace each of those players..... every single one of replacements were worse than what we used in 2023.... every single one.

So while you say "most of those players aren't any good"....all of the replacements were worse.

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

I think you’re crazy if you’re not ecstatic with the group of guys we have now. There are certain things to be justifiably negative about after the (fluke) terrible season that just went down, but in reality there are still 20+ teams that would swap situations with the devils if given a chance.

There will be signings and trades in the coming months that quell some doubts but not remove them completely and that’s fine. I don’t care that the panthers play heavier than the devils or whatever, the other team in the finals plays a lot like the devils do. Every teams path to success is different, devils have no reason to chase what other teams have done because they could create their own definition of what a cup contending team looks like. I agree that we should have some more rough and tumble guys as depth pieces, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water here.

 

[Guttersniped]

So we can will it into existence by just making a trade and believing its cup or bust...Doesn't work that way ...Hopefully we got the right coach now add some heavier harder to play against fwds like a Trenin or DeBrusk and a Noeson type ....This is still a young team no need to panic

DeBrusk is a heavier, hard to play against forward?

 

[JimEIV]

Nosek, Lazar over Wood and McLeod?

Holtz over Tatar?

A 19 year old 0 game experience Nemec over Severson

A 20 year old 2 game experience over Graves who was a rock for Marino.

Extras of Chris Tierney, Max Willman, MacDermid, Bowers, over
Zetterlund, Sharangovich and Boqvist

Palat shit the bed.
Vitek shit the bed

Mercer got pushed out of the top 6 and had to play the whole season with these scrub replacements...

We brought in Toffoli who moved like Cecil turtle and stapled him to one of the most dynamic skaters in the league...what a f***ing mess.

Injuries sucked but we also iced a shit sandwich.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Luke better than Graves, Nemec better than Severson, Lazar better than Wood, Palat great play driving and defensive numbers, Toffoli 26 goals in 61 games. I will not be taking questions at this time.

 

[JimEIV]

Luke better than Graves, Nemec better than Severson, Lazar better than Wood, Palat great play driving and defensive numbers, Toffoli 26 goals in 61 games. I will not be taking questions at this time.

Luke in 2024 was not better than Graves in 2023....not remotely close

Nemec was is not close to better than Severson at anything this season.

Lazar better was not than Wood....Wood gave us 13 goals, Lazar 8. Lazar is an extra on most teams. Wood consistently provided good goal scoring from the bottom 6.

Palat had 1 goal in a 25 game stretch this season reminiscent of Ruutu.... horrible. Palat was as bad as Vitek and no one is talking about it because all those 6 million dollar years are still out there.

Toffolli"s goals didn't make up for the deficit in team speed he brought. The team was noticably slower this season and it eliminated a major weapon we had in 2023 being able to out skate a lot of teams and Toffoli was one of the biggest culprits of the problem.

 

[hidek91]

I don't know how many times it needs to be said to you that Luke and NEmec this past year were better than Sevs and Graves were in 22-23. They are already legitimate top 4 DMen. at 20 years old.

They won 50+ games with this same core literally a year ago.

Don't you get tired of doing this?

Luke, with his defence, was top 4 d-man in 2023-24?

 

[Nocashstyle]

Luke in 2024 was not better than Graves in 2023....not remotely close

Nemec was is not close to better than Severson at anything this season.

Lazar better was not than Wood....Wood gave us 13 goals, Lazar 8. Lazar is an extra on most teams.

Palat had 1 goal in a 25 game stretch this season reminiscent of Ruutu.... horrible. Palat was as bad as Vitek and no one is talking about it because all those 6 million dollar years are still out there.

Toffolli"s goals didn't make up for the deficit in team speed he brought. The team was noticably slower this season and it eliminated a major weapon we had in 2023 being able to out skate a lot of teams and Toffoli was one of the biggest culprits of the problem.

Puck management 110%

 

[JimEIV]

Puck management 110%

No... Nemec showed flashes of poise no doubt, but he was a train wreck a lot of, if not most of this season. I'm sorry he wasn't good.

People are looking at Nemec and seeing the possibilities like a proud parent ...and rightfully so...but those possibilities aren't what we got this season. His indecisive, out of position play was evident every night.

Great first showing for sure....but not good for a top 3 Dman on a team that wants to make the playoffs....

If it was 2020 and we were throwing away a year letting the kids learn....then Nemec was spectacular...Nemec performance wasn't good enough to play 20 minutes a night for a series team though.

 

[Nocashstyle]

No... Nemec showed flashes of poise no doubt, but he was a train wreck a lot of, if not most of this season. I'm sorry he wasn't good.

People are looking at Nemec and seeing the possibilities like a proud parent ...and rightfully so...but those possibilities aren't what we got this season. His indecisive, out of position play was evident every night.

Great first showing for sure....but not good for a top 3 Dman on a team that wants to make the playoffs....

If it was 2020 and we were throwing away a year letting the kids learn....then Nemec was spectacular...Nemec performance wasn't good enough to play 20 minutes a night for a series team though.

Lol nah.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Luke, with his defence, was top 4 d-man in 2023-24?

yes..........?

at 5 on 5, Luke led the Devils DMen in CF% and was (barely) 2nd in xG% while playing over 21 minutes per game. Oh and he put up 47 points. What else would you call him........?




Also, I can't actually believe someone watched 19 year old Simon Nemec the entirety of his season and say he wasnt good. He was good IN GENERAL, let alone for how old an in-experienced he was.

"but not good for a top 3 Dman on a team that wants to make the playoffs"

how many playoff teams have a 19 year old DMan playing 20 minutes per night.......................?

 

[dgibb10]

yes..........?

at 5 on 5, Luke led the Devils DMen in CF% and was (barely) 2nd in xG% while playing over 21 minutes per game. Oh and he put up 47 points. What else would you call him........?




Also, I can't actually believe someone watched 19 year old Simon Nemec the entirety of his season and say he wasnt good. He was good IN GENERAL, let alone for how old an in-experienced he was.

"but not good for a top 3 Dman on a team that wants to make the playoffs"

how many playoff teams have a 19 year old DMan playing 20 minutes per night.......................?

The list of players not old enough to drink playing 20 minutes a night last year (nemec was just below):

Luke Hughes
Simon Nemec

 

[Oneiro]

No point arguing with a 1995 Scott Stevens bedsheet. It doesn’t change, it says the same thing over and over.

Luke and Nemec were better but not better than Dougie healthy and Severson on the third pair, everyone slotted correctly. Lazar was better than Wood but not when he’s forced to be a third liner vs. being on a real fourth line.

It’s just injuries and team context where guys like Palat and Mercer were not doing their fair share. Mercer sucked last year, you can blame it on his line mates all you want but he’s got a lot to prove. And the reality is that he’s been a passenger his entire time here - there’s never been a period where he’s rolling and taking charge and the team isn’t, unlike a Coleman, Bratt or Jack. This team will look a lot better if he takes the jump he was supposed to take last year. Palat I’ve written off and anything good will be a nice surprise.

The team needs a 3C, wing for Jack and a pair of fourth liners. Most of that isn’t too hard and this team will have plenty of cup chasers to fill it out over the years.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Its just weird revisionist history.

Ryan Graves was very good the first half of the season in 22-23. Down the stretch and in the playoffs, he absolutely stunk. I defended Damon Severson probably more than most on this board, but truth of the matter is he was playing sheltered 3rd pairing minutes last year.

There are many reasons why the team was bad last year. Goaltending, injuries, the coach's terrible system, etc. They weren't as bad as they were simply because they lost 2 middling players in Graves and Severson.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Luke was better than Graves in 2023 playoffs, that's one of the reasons Graves didn't return. There was no need to bring him back when they had an ELC on that left side. The issue also wasn't the kids in the lineup on defense, it was the idea that running back with a cooked Vitek + goaltending they had wouldn't falter with the youth on the backend. The solution would've been to get a better goalie so you offset the young dmen making tons of mistakes which they were bound to make due to the position. Both of them ran into rookie walls but that was supposed to be expected, also it doesn't help that Luke was playing with the worst partner in Brendan Smith most of the year that caved his results to hell. Smith was a 7D in 22-23, their defense was just shambolic due to the coaching decisions and injuries they had.

 

[dgibb10]

Its just weird revisionist history.

Ryan Graves was very good the first half of the season in 22-23. Down the stretch and in the playoffs, he absolutely stunk. I defended Damon Severson probably more than most on this board, but truth of the matter is he was playing sheltered 3rd pairing minutes last year.

There are many reasons why the team was bad last year. Goaltending, injuries, the coach's terrible system, etc. They weren't as bad as they were simply because they lost 2 middling players in Graves and Severson.

Luke was better than Graves.
Nemec was about as good as Severson

Colin Miller was not as good as dougie Hamilton (duh)

Siegenthaler and Marino had down years. It's very easy to look at the players who changed and blame them, but Siegs and Marino took big steps back.

I have faith in them, but worst case scenario they end up as an elite 3rd pair and we have to bring in a legit 2LD (which I think we should do anyway)

 

[JimEIV]

Mercer sucked last year, you can blame it on his line mates all you want but he’s got a lot to prove.

You guys blow me away with the context lapses...

What freaking players over the last 20 years that hasn't missed a single game of their Entry Level Contract and averaged 21 goals and roughly 44 points a season. "has a lot to prove"?


The critical nature of a spectacular ELC is just insane. If this kid toiled in Utica for two of the last 3 years he'd be getting more leeway here like Holtz has who is his peer and nowhere near his class..... it's nuts

 

[guitarguyvic]

The reality is that a lot of different things contributed to the mess, to different degrees.

You had a large amount of turnover with key role players, and no the players they were replaced with were not necessarily better. Maybe if you looked at each in a vacuum you could make that argument, but having someone like lazar playing on the third line is not as good or better than a Zetterlund or Sharangovich.

You have a group of forwards who really can’t be relied on defensively, with two rookie defenders playing prominent roles trying to close that gap and also prop up veteran defenders who suck like Brendan Smith and a struggling Siegenthaler. The vets, including forwards, should be the ones propping up the kids not the other way around.

The goaltending sucked but it was really no surprise given what was in the front of them. A Swayman or Shesterkin would be the only guys who could mitigate the skaters deficiencies in any kind of meaningful way.

On top of that the team was filled with too many players who suck at winning board battles and are soft as f*** physically. Getting brutalized along the boards and with dirty plays because you have zero willingness to be dirty back leads to injuries and fatigue. And boy did we have plenty of that.

And then the base to all this was without a doubt the systems and coaching. There was just no way you were gonna survive all of the above without some outstanding coaching, but the reality is that the asinine system and lack of mature structure and accountability for playing responsibly greatly contributed to all of the above. I can’t imagine being a rookie defender trying to navigate this stupid defensive scheme for 20 minutes a night alongside Brendan f***ing Smith.

To further the point about coaching…this team looked like straight dog shit defensively for a good 15 games before the injuries even started. Even if they had a bit better fortune than losing Dougie and Jack for huge stretches, this team still would not have been anything more than a WC and would have been utterly embarrassed in the first round.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Also the discourse about Mercer is stupid. Kid had a down year on a shit team. There are so many other bigger issues, I don’t understand how anyone can focus their ire on him of all people.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Also the discourse about Mercer is stupid. Kid had a down year on a shit team. There are so many other bigger issues, I don’t understand how anyone can focus their ire on him of all people.

No one is "focused" on him, but his season last year was absolutely disappointing. Maybe he's more a 40-50 point guy rather than a potential 60-70 point guy? That's still okay, but doesn't mean it isn't a bit disappointing

 

[My3Sons]

No one is "focused" on him, but his season last year was absolutely disappointing. Maybe he's more a 40-50 point guy rather than a potential 60-70 point guy? That's still okay, but doesn't mean it isn't a bit disappointing

I’m skeptical he has a nice season at 21 but his 22 year old season is the real Mercer. The whole team was off last season. I’m not reading more into it given the same core was much better just one season prior. Sure it would be disappointing if he was a 20-20 guy going forward but I think he’s more likely a 25-35 type guy in the right spot maybe even a 30-35 type guy. As others have noted Siegs and Marino were much bigger issues than Mercer and to me the injuries the goalies and the stubborn coaching were the big problems compared to whatever other struggles the team had.

 

[JimEIV]

Graves was not a good player for the Devils in his final year at 5v5

Ryan Graves was our best defensemen in shorthanded Goals Against per 60 and was our 2nd best to his partner GA/60 at Even Strength in 2023.

Essentially he was a key component in the 9th best Defense (Goals Against) in the league. Graves and Marino were excellent in 2023.