Devils 2021 training camp thread (news, notes and speculation) - Part III [MOD warning in OP]

[Jersey Fan 12]

Bahl and Foote shouldn’t be on the cusp at all to me. Bahl’s never shown anything and Foote is not good enough. Holtz is very easily a tier over them.

Bahl not showing anything has more to do with your ability to evaluate defenders than it has to do with his play to this point .

The maturity to his game and his positional play is extremely advanced for a player his age. By comparison, the physical play and rambunctiousness of Okhotyuk is fairly obvious and apparent to even casual fans.

The subtle parts of Bahl's game take time to appreciate. His size is a strength but there is a lot more to his game.

 

[Devils731]

Did grabner? I'm not sure how good of an actual preventative scoring player grabner was on the pk, but he could certainly create havoc and was always dangerous as a pker

For me, yes, Grabner was more agile than Wood.

I would worry, without seeing how he’s doing, that Wood would create much more chaos for the PK than the PP opponents as he is slow to adjust to the puck movement.

ES and PK is different but Wood can spin like a top at times at ES and I would think that would get exacerbated on the PK…unless the Devils ask the PK players to mostly stand around again.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

 

[Forge]

I do like kuokkanen with Zacha in theory

 

[devilsblood]

Travis Zajac, but he retired.

Pavel Zacha did not have a big relative offensive season at 5v5.

Zacha did have a big offensive season 5v5 relative to the other returning centers. Best on the team in terms of p/60.

It was also a big offensive season 5v5 relative to his career.

As per Zajac, he's neither on the team nor in the league, so how is that a good example?

 

[HyperX]

While having played in a bottom 6 role, partially a 4th line role, with a bunch of fighting majors, while in the Pat Burns doghouse, while averaging less time at 19 years(15:21) old than Jack did at 18(15:52) - Joe is so old they didn't even keep ATOI his rookie year....This was probably all before or around the time you born, I am guessing?

You think this is a good example?

He then only averaged 30-40 assists for three more seasons before 50, 60, and then 92,98, and many more 40-50+ assist seasons

the point is some players explode later than others; Jack having his first PPG year at 20, 21, or 22 isnt some knock on him

 

[AfroThunder396]

Bahl is fine, he could play in the NHL this year and be a competent bottom pairing guy. But we don't need any more bottom pairing guys and there are still aspects of his game to work on. He will definitely see NHL ice this season as the first call up on the left side. He will have an opportunity to stick.

Regarding Foote, he is not ever going to be the engine that drives a line. He is a complimentary player that you stick with a solid pair. Good on the boards, crashes the net. So it's a little unfair IMO that people are criticizing him for not scoring goals like Holtz and Mercer. He's obviously not Holtz or Mercer. He is a nice middle-6 winger with size and a good shot. We saw that in his limited appearance last season and it's pretty clear the coaching staff wanted him to play more but kept him out so his ELC would slide.

 

[Davegarri]

I cant wait to see how Mercer develops further. I really think he is going to be an absolute stud.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Bahl is fine, he could play in the NHL this year and be a competent bottom pairing guy. But we don't need any more bottom pairing guys and there are still aspects of his game to work on. He will definitely see NHL ice this season as the first call up on the left side. He will have an opportunity to stick.

Regarding Foote, he is not ever going to be the engine that drives a line. He is a complimentary player that you stick with a solid pair. Good on the boards, crashes the net. So it's a little unfair IMO that people are criticizing him for not scoring goals like Holtz and Mercer. He's obviously not Holtz or Mercer. He is a nice middle-6 winger with size and a good shot. We saw that in his limited appearance last season and it's pretty clear the coaching staff wanted him to play more but kept him out so his ELC would slide.

Okhotiuk has consistently been a better player than Bahl for quite some time now. He should be the first call up unless he makes the team as the 7th D.

Also Foote has done nothing yet to show that he is a middle-6 NHL winger.

 

[devilsblood]

Regarding Foote, he is not ever going to be the engine that drives a line. He is a complimentary player that you stick with a solid pair. Good on the boards, crashes the net. So it's a little unfair IMO that people are criticizing him for not scoring goals like Holtz and Mercer. He's obviously not Holtz or Mercer. He is a nice middle-6 winger with size and a good shot. We saw that in his limited appearance last season and it's pretty clear the coaching staff wanted him to play more but kept him out so his ELC would slide.

People did say similar about Holtz which I never liked, and I think Holtz's puck skills, beyond just the shot, are such that he will outperform that description.

Per Foote, he does need to show more. Granted it's a preseason game but it was a bit of a skills exhibition, and I would have liked to see something from him(or Clarke, or Z). Needs a big year down in the A this year.

 

[MartyOwns]

you got me black listed at hop sings?!

 

[SKNJD9]

Is Mercer that surprise all-star that teams luck into now and then ? Probably not...but it would be nice.

 

[Triumph]

Zacha did have a big offensive season 5v5 relative to the other returning centers. Best on the team in terms of p/60.

It was also a big offensive season 5v5 relative to his career.

As per Zajac, he's neither on the team nor in the league, so how is that a good example?

It's a great example because it just goes to show how much points are a phantasm. Here, Zajac scored at a top line rate. He then went over to the Island and scored at a sub 4th line rate. He didn't have any magical chemistry with his linemates here - pucks just went in a lot. A couple fluke bounces here and there add up, especially on secondary assists.

My point here is that the supposed chemistry between Zacha, Nico, and Bratt is overstated, and that while putting them back together can certainly make sense, there's no reason why that line should be prioritized above all others. The Devils should be looking to find the optimal combinations and there's nothing that shows that that one is.

 

[devilsblood]

Is Mercer that surprise all-star that teams luck into now and then ? Probably not...but it would be nice.

He's a 1st round pick, that many thought was great value where he was drafted.

So wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

I was a bit in the hold your horses camp regarding Mercer last season and this offseason, but I did decide to let go of my horse.

 

[Hisch13r]

Looking around at the other teams in our division, we really are an insane bunch. We're on page 20 of our 3rd training camp thread. Carolina is on page 5 of their 1st one, Columbus page 10 of their 1st, Isles page 8 of the 1st, Pens page 26 of the 1st one, Caps page 20 of their 1st and that one's been open since the start of the month, Philly page 18 of the first one, Rangers page 47 of the 1st training camp one but they also have a roster thread which went up around the same time as training camp opening which is on page 22.

 

[Triumph]

Yea I can't for the life of me imagine being so annoyed by an opinion, that you create a world where you are protected from ever having to hear from that person again. Seems childish.

I can't imagine not doing this. Seeing dissenting views is fine - seeing dissenting views that argue in bad faith and that constantly get things wrong, it's just healthier for me and the board to have certain people on ignore.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I can't imagine not doing this. Seeing dissenting views is fine - seeing dissenting views that argue in bad faith and that constantly get things wrong, it's just healthier for me and the board to have certain people on ignore.

I get it, but like anything else now a days, when you start calling something a "bad faith" argument, you start doing it with all arguments and it just becomes an easy out to never be challenged on what you say.

I understand just not wanting to deal with it, but I personally have no issue with what anyone wants to say. If it's so ridiculous that it's border line trolling, I can just ignore that particular post or let them know how wrong they are.

The whole broken clock thing works here too, they eventually could say something that makes sense that you didn't think of. I will take skipping posts to have the slight chance to learn something new rather than just ignoring someone outright and missing that chance.

 

[devilsblood]

It's a great example because it just goes to show how much points are a phantasm. Here, Zajac scored at a top line rate. He then went over to the Island and scored at a sub 4th line rate. He didn't have any magical chemistry with his linemates here - pucks just went in a lot. A couple fluke bounces here and there add up, especially on secondary assists.

My point here is that the supposed chemistry between Zacha, Nico, and Bratt is overstated, and that while putting them back together can certainly make sense, there's no reason why that line should be prioritized above all others. The Devils should be looking to find the optimal combinations and there's nothing that shows that that one is.

It's not a great example at all. Zajac went to a different team, in a different role and with different linemates. Was the first line scoring rate going to continue? No, but I put a lot of weight into linemates and usage, I put very little on "a couple of fluke bounces".

If we were in a magical world where we had 2 legit top lines and Shara Zajac Kuok was our 3rd line going into this season? I'd look at last years results together and say, sure let's give it another go.

 

[SKNJD9]

He's a 1st round pick, that many thought was great value where he was drafted.

So wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

I was a bit in the hold your horses camp regarding Mercer last season and this offseason, but I did decide to let go of my horse.

Same, the way people were fawning during the rookie challenge I thought was pre-mature... and granted its only the first week of camp and one game but gah daym

 

[JimEIV]

He then only averaged 30-40 assists for three more seasons before 50, 60, and then 92,98, and many more 40-50+ assist seasons

the point is some players explode later than others

I understand your point...But I think this board is severely under-playing the lack of production from Jack.

Look at this way - This season was a complete and utter disaster for Nico. Injuries and COVID - Broken leg, disfigured face forcing him to play with the LEGO helmet , downtime, COVID breaks and delays...you probably couldn't get much worse...it led to the worst production of his career with 11 points in 21 games ...That's .52 ppg with a career .63 ppg - Jack, in what everyone is celebrating as his "improvement" year just had .55 ppg - for total of .44 ppg over both years.

Jack is supposed to be the dynamic superstar with elite vision...The production hasn't been good...It hasn't even ok. The kid just averaged over 19 minutes a game to produce at 45 point pace. I am sorry that is horrible.

19 minutes a game was 38th overall in the league for forwards...Jack had a higher average time on ice than Barzal, Brad Marchand, Pastrnak and Backstrom to name a few.

 

[Lou is God]

you got me black listed at hop sings?!

You named name.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Could he be the new Bratt? Everyone pretty much was like, alright this is fun, can't wait until he is here full ti.....wait, he isn't going away.... he has no reason to go away. Well ok he earned it.

 

[Lou is God]

Ok, what's going on with Ty Smith....

 

[Hisch13r]

Ok, what's going on with Ty Smith....

Doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

[Forge]

Ok, what's going on with Ty Smith....

Precautionary as we complete a trade and contract for Quinn .

I chose violence with this post lol