Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - part IX

[Billdo]

The back-pass gimmick is what happened.

But what I'm saying is Ward was constantly vilified yet he had a top 1/3 of the league PP last year. He's now gone and our PP is terrible. That's not coincidence.

 

[MartyOwns]

Omfg this again. The amount of people who do not realize that the majority of teams do this for years is beyond me...

The back pass must be done because it freezes the PK and makes them flat footed which creates an easy zone entry. Just because the Devil players struggle with it doesn’t mean its a flawed tactic. They have to get better at it. If you abandon that then you are left with skating into a line of players or just dumping it in which the SAME people would complain about.

right but if it’s not working for us, why would we continue to do it? regardless of what the rest of the league can do? believe me, there’s a long list of things other teams can do that we can’t. such as win an overtime game or hold onto a lead comfortably.

we have much more success carrying the puck over the line without that nonsense. if the PK is expecting the drop pass- and i distinctly remember the rangers anticipating it during the preseason, that’s how predictable it is- they won’t be caught flat footed

 

[njdevils1982]

2 forecheckers going full speed going for the opposition blue line, the puck carrier crosses center and dumps it in as they hit the line……then go in and mash them deep…

oh wait….nevermind….too soft for that kind of shit

 

[Bleedred]

So a 5th defenseman over a top 4 defenseman... lol wtf

Mueller is not a proven top 4 defenseman either.

Just because he's been a top 4 guy for 20 games doesn't mean he's a top 4 guy right now. He wasn't a top 4 guy before this year.

A lot of this board also thought Santini was a top 4 or claimed he was at this time last year.

Don't get me wrong, Mueller has been a f*** ton better than Santini was last year, but that's not my point.

 

[Zippy316]

2 forecheckers going full speed going for the opposition blue line, the puck carrier crosses center and dumps it in as they hit the line……then go in and mash them deep…

oh wait….nevermind….too soft for that kind of ****

It's a lot harder to execute when defenders have become exponentially better skaters in the last decade or so. Worked when plodding guys like Daneyko were on every team, but now it's different.

Besides, Devils end up doing that often just with the drop pass after you force the PKers to stagnate and hopefully catch them flat footed.

Again, it depends who you have executing it. For example, Vatanen is horrendously bad at the drop pass, it makes me cringe every time he does it. Butcher/Hall/Palmieri on the other hand do it so smooth most of the time.

 

[Bleedred]

Wow! This is just a horrible take! I would be really happy if Shero finds left handed version of Larsson, who can play in the first pair with Severson or Vatanen. I'm also pretty sure that Hynes would be ready to play Butcher on the second pair if the Devils had better defensive dman options to the right side. Lovejoy is a good 3rd pair dman but nothing more.

The horrible takes are how overrated Larsson is here.

I think he's a decent second pairing guy. A solid number 4 if you asked me.

He's not a top 2 guy like so many of you here claim.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but practice lines were the same as past game. Hynes also has the starter for tomorrow picked but hasn’t announced it yet until he talks to the goalies.

Again, I would figure Cory gets one of these next two games eventually but we will see what happens tomorrow.

 

[bobilly45]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but practice lines were the same as past game. Hynes also has the starter for tomorrow picked but hasn’t announced it yet until he talks to the goalies.

Again, I would figure Cory gets one of these next two games eventually but we will see what happens tomorrow.

I think they go with kk tomorrow and cory monday. Barring anything out of the ordinary, cory should have at least 1 start, if not 2 this week

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

Omfg this again. The amount of people who do not realize that the majority of teams do this for years is beyond me...

The back pass must be done because it freezes the PK and makes them flat footed which creates an easy zone entry. Just because the Devil players struggle with it doesn’t mean its a flawed tactic. They have to get better at it. If you abandon that then you are left with skating into a line of players or just dumping it in which the SAME people would complain about.

It's not that the tactic is bad, it's the way the devils do it, that's bad and at least from memory, every time they attempt it they lose possession immediately but they enter the zone when they do it normally, so why do they keep trying to do the drop pass?

 

[BenedictGomez]

Not as much as this year. It is so predictable now

To everyone.

Like all tactics, once someone figures out how to either impede it, or straight-up defeat it, it becomes outdated.

I predict the "pass it back" powerplay strategy will be out of the NHL within 3 years, because the book on how to play it is now well-known.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The back pass was ugly last year as well. We looked like shit gaining the zone and wasted a lot of time as a result.

The difference is last year they were much much better once they finally gained the zone. This year they have not been nearly as effective.

Not being able to make up their minds on what side to put Hall and Palms isn’t helping.

They do seem much more deliberate and predictable with the back pass this year though. Like they look uncomfortable doing it.

 

[njdevils1982]

It's a lot harder to execute when defenders have become exponentially better skaters in the last decade or so. Worked when plodding guys like Daneyko were on every team, but now it's different.

Besides, Devils end up doing that often just with the drop pass after you force the PKers to stagnate and hopefully catch them flat footed.

Again, it depends who you have executing it. For example, Vatanen is horrendously bad at the drop pass, it makes me cringe every time he does it. Butcher/Hall/Palmieri on the other hand do it so smooth most of the time.

it was kind of a joke of maybe changing it up and adding a differnet look once in a while……throw the other team off if your too predictable

 

[NjDevsRR]

The back pass literally cannot be defended when done properly because the skater with the puck pushes the PK back into the blue line, when the back pass happens the PK players are now stalled out at the blue line and are flat footed which allows a skater to skate in or finds a player open at the blue line. If you try to defend a back pass it will allow more options to open up since there will only be three people back now. Idk why people continually think its stupid when its the best option. Morons at games literally yell “YOU ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY”...

It’s like asking a NFL team to stop playing the screen because they suck at it. NO, you keep on doing it and improve on it because it is a critical play.

 

[Darkauron]

The back pass literally cannot be defended when done properly because the skater with the puck pushes the PK back into the blue line, when the back pass happens the PK players are now stalled out at the blue line and are flat footed which allows a skater to skate in or finds a player open at the blue line. If you try to defend a back pass it will allow more options to open up since there will only be three people back now. Idk why people continually think its stupid when its the best option. Morons at games literally yell “YOU ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY”...

It’s like asking a NFL team to stop playing the screen because they suck at it. NO, you keep on doing it and improve on it because it is a critical play.

Yeah don't think so. Even if done properly big *if* Some things work well in theory but if a team can't execute well it doesn't mean shit

 

[NjDevsRR]

Yeah don't think so. Even if done properly big *if* Some things work well in theory but if a team can't execute well it doesn't mean ****

Ok then, have fun skating into a line of players who are moving their feet or dumping and chasing it.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Mueller is not a proven top 4 defenseman either.

Just because he's been a top 4 guy for 20 games doesn't mean he's a top 4 guy right now. He wasn't a top 4 guy before this year.

A lot of this board also thought Santini was a top 4 or claimed he was at this time last year.

Don't get me wrong, Mueller has been a **** ton better than Santini was last year, but that's not my point.

Not one person claimed Santini was a top4. Ever. Everyone knew he was playing way out of position. Mueller is as well, because frankly Vatanan is a defensive giveaway horroshow, Greene has finally really hit the wall, and Severson cannot possibly be trusted with defensive responsibility. Mueller and Santini have been de facto #2s for us, and no one has ever claimed that they aren't playing WAY the hell out of where they should be playing (which is #5 on a good team.)

Hell, John Moore was our defacto #3 even in defensive situations and THAT alone should tell you something.

 

[billingtons ghost]

The back pass literally cannot be defended when done properly because the skater with the puck pushes the PK back into the blue line, when the back pass happens the PK players are now stalled out at the blue line and are flat footed which allows a skater to skate in or finds a player open at the blue line. If you try to defend a back pass it will allow more options to open up since there will only be three people back now. Idk why people continually think its stupid when its the best option. Morons at games literally yell “YOU ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY”...

It’s like asking a NFL team to stop playing the screen because they suck at it. NO, you keep on doing it and improve on it because it is a critical play.

I agree with this - I think that despite how completely hokey it looks sometimes, this may be our best year with actually getting INTO the offensive zone on the power play, considering in the past we'd rely on a Jagr or Zubrus to just go bump butts in the corner and come up with the puck after a dump in.

 

[MadDevil]

Part of it too is who they're dropping the puck to. Hall and MoJo are usually pretty good at it because they're also good at controlled entries. If you're dropping it back to Palmieri or Zajac (which they did multiple times in the Tampa disaster) it's probably not going to work as well. The strategy itself is fine. Our execution of it just hasn't been as sharp as it was last year.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Not one person claimed Santini was a top4. Ever. Everyone knew he was playing way out of position. Mueller is as well, because frankly Vatanan is a defensive giveaway horroshow, Greene has finally really hit the wall, and Severson cannot possibly be trusted with defensive responsibility. Mueller and Santini have been de facto #2s for us, and no one has ever claimed that they aren't playing WAY the hell out of where they should be playing (which is #5 on a good team.)

Hell, John Moore was our defacto #3 even in defensive situations and THAT alone should tell you something.

Some people absolutely have in Mueller’s case.

I like the kid and think he has a place on this team long term, but if he is in the top pairing again next year we are in for another tough season.

We need a top 4 LD and I would pack Butcher’s bags tonight if including him in a package gets it done.

 

[Bleedred]

Not one person claimed Santini was a top4. Ever. Everyone knew he was playing way out of position. Mueller is as well, because frankly Vatanan is a defensive giveaway horroshow, Greene has finally really hit the wall, and Severson cannot possibly be trusted with defensive responsibility. Mueller and Santini have been de facto #2s for us, and no one has ever claimed that they aren't playing WAY the hell out of where they should be playing (which is #5 on a good team.)

Hell, John Moore was our defacto #3 even in defensive situations and THAT alone should tell you something.

I can look up posts from last year that claimed Santini was already a ''Top 4 defenseman''.

And at least one person has already claimed Mueller is a top 4 defenseman today, as it was done so just in the post that I was replying to in my post you quoted. I think Mueller has done very well this year, I don't like seeing him scratched and he's been better this year than Santini or Moore ever were. So I wasn't trying to use this as a platform to say he isn't good, just trying to say that it's not enough time to say he's a top 4 guy yet, as the sample size of him being so is very small.

And on the topic of giveaways. Don't some of you guys realize that guys like Vatanen and Severson (Butcher too) give the puck away more than a guy like current Andy Greene or Santini/Lovejoy/Mueller? Scott Niedermayer probably had twice as many turnovers in a season than a guy like Ken Daneyko. Even Scott Stevens probably had a significantly higher amount of turnovers than a guy like Ken Daneyko or Tommy Albelin or Colin White. This was because those other guys I mentioned were almost allergic to the puck when they played, outside of being able to ice it on the PK.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

Omfg this again. The amount of people who do not realize that the majority of teams do this for years is beyond me...

The back pass must be done because it freezes the PK and makes them flat footed which creates an easy zone entry. Just because the Devil players struggle with it doesn’t mean its a flawed tactic. They have to get better at it. If you abandon that then you are left with skating into a line of players or just dumping it in which the SAME people would complain about.

No. A back pass is not a drop pass. Those are 2 very different things and have the 2nd wave skating with speed right behind the front attack. That is what we did last year, we didn't hit the red line and suddenly turn around and throw it back into our own zone. That's what they're doing now EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE OPEN ICE to skate freely into the zone because it's been scripted to force the pass. The correct way is to skate to pressure and then if finding pressure back pass to the supporting wave. Now they don't even wait for true pressure, they just do it and the PK knows it's coming and fast attacks getting a turnover at best, a complete regroup and killing 20 seconds of the PP at worst. It works 1/3rd of the time I'd say and it's laughable they keep sticking to it. You have to mix it up as 1 of 3 distinct zone entries - straight skate in and pull up waiting for others to flood down low, the dump past the stand-up and beat them with speed to the puck, and then the back pass.

Not this again my butt. The difference between what other teams have done successfully with an outlet pass with speed following the primary puck carrier is so evident I can't believe I have to explain myself here.

 

[Zippy316]

No. A back pass is not a drop pass. Those are 2 very different things and have the 2nd wave skating with speed right behind the front attack. That is what we did last year, we didn't hit the red line and suddenly turn around and throw it back into our own zone. That's what they're doing now EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE OPEN ICE to skate freely into the zone because it's been scripted to force the pass. The correct way is to skate to pressure and then if finding pressure back pass to the supporting wave. Now they don't even wait for true pressure, they just do it and the PK knows it's coming and fast attacks getting a turnover at best, a complete regroup and killing 20 seconds of the PP at worst. It works 1/3rd of the time I'd say and it's laughable they keep sticking to it. You have to mix it up as 1 of 3 distinct zone entries - straight skate in and pull up waiting for others to flood down low, the dump past the stand-up and beat them with speed to the puck, and then the back pass.

Not this again my butt. The difference between what other teams have done successfully with an outlet pass with speed following the primary puck carrier is so evident I can't believe I have to explain myself here.

Butcher does it well. Vatanen doesn't.

Butcher has a keen sense on where the actual pressure is, where he can catch Hall or Palmieri in stride, and when he should just gain the zone and ignore the forwards. Vatanen is a train wreck though and does everything you said.

 

[Wingman77]

The back pass is amateur league level stuff.

 

[Bleedred]

I think they go with kk tomorrow and cory monday. Barring anything out of the ordinary, cory should have at least 1 start, if not 2 this week

San Jose is where Cory got ran out of the building last year and didn’t play again until after we clinched a playoff spot about 3 weeks later.

That’s way too tough of a game to have Cory play, as you know Pete’s gonna have them ready to beat us that night!

 

[Wingman77]

This post is amateur league level stuff. Majority of the NHL does it cause it works.

The back pass is more amateur because of its predictability at this level of hockey. That doesn't mean it is wrong to use at this level, its something different that every now and then can throw an unexpected bone to an opposing penalty kill expecting something else. That is the difference though, every now and then. At a younger level when kids are learning to play the game and learning the more basic systems coaches put out, it is something that could be used more successfully because kids aren't fully used to systems and what to expect or how to react as quick so teams can get away with it.

For a team built on the philosophy of being fast in a league that's current state is largely built around the same, on a power play type of environment especially, speed gives less time for less players on the other side of the ice to make decisions and react. You slow it down, too often like the Devils have been guilty of, and the other team can read the play and react better with that extra time. Very similar to when a team is on the power play in the offensive zone and takes its time looking for the perfect pass by holding on to the puck looking for the best option, something we have seen a fair number of Devils teams over the years struggle with. It gives the opposing team more time to react and pressure, creating turnovers, rather than the team on the power play controlling the game and keeping the killing team on its heels.