Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - part IX

[devilsblood]

No. A back pass is not a drop pass. Those are 2 very different things and have the 2nd wave skating with speed right behind the front attack. That is what we did last year, we didn't hit the red line and suddenly turn around and throw it back into our own zone. That's what they're doing now EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE OPEN ICE to skate freely into the zone because it's been scripted to force the pass. The correct way is to skate to pressure and then if finding pressure back pass to the supporting wave. Now they don't even wait for true pressure, they just do it and the PK knows it's coming and fast attacks getting a turnover at best, a complete regroup and killing 20 seconds of the PP at worst. It works 1/3rd of the time I'd say and it's laughable they keep sticking to it. You have to mix it up as 1 of 3 distinct zone entries - straight skate in and pull up waiting for others to flood down low, the dump past the stand-up and beat them with speed to the puck, and then the back pass.

Not this again my butt. The difference between what other teams have done successfully with an outlet pass with speed following the primary puck carrier is so evident I can't believe I have to explain myself here.

We often see teams give half/faux pressure, to the D-man skating with the puck because they know the drop is coming. Then that fore checker is in decent position to defend that 2nd wave.

Butcher does it well. Vatanen doesn't.

Butcher has a keen sense on where the actual pressure is, where he can catch Hall or Palmieri in stride, and when he should just gain the zone and ignore the forwards. Vatanen is a train wreck though and does everything you said.

Butcher though is not a threat to skate the puck into the offensive zone. Teams know the drop is coming and defend accordingly.

 

[Cheddabombs]

The problem with the back-pass is the Devils' execution of it, and that at points they seem entirely dependent on it in that they won't even consider another option even it's not there. Way too often are the two forwards starting to gain momentum too late, by the time either of them get the pass back they are just starting to skate up in the defensive zone. It gives the opposition all the time in the world to reset and get ready to defend them, which often leads to a failed entry. And I guess I kind of get why they do so given that they'll often make a pass back to one forward who will hit the forward on the other side in motion, but it's not working. There's too little space to move with and it just ends up being a turnover more often than not.

Then there's the problem of being too dependent on the tactic at times, but I mean it's Butcher carrying the puck on the first wave and he's not exactly the fleetest of foot to maneuver around defenders if option A needs to be aborted.

 

[devilsblood]

The problem with the back-pass is the Devils' execution of it, and that at points they seem entirely dependent on it in that they won't even consider another option even it's not there. Way too often are the two forwards starting to gain momentum too late, by the time either of them get the pass back they are just starting to skate up in the defensive zone. It gives the opposition all the time in the world to reset and get ready to defend them, which often leads to a failed entry. And I guess I kind of get why they do so given that they'll often make a pass back to one forward who will hit the forward on the other side in motion, but it's not working. There's too little space to move with and it just ends up being a turnover more often than not.

Then there's the problem of being too dependent on the tactic at times, but I mean it's Butcher carrying the puck on the first wave and he's not exactly the fleetest of foot to maneuver around defenders if option A needs to be aborted.

Ya, I was thinking the same, seems that our d-man makes the back pass and the fwd's are just so far back. Moreso then other teams.

 

[Triumph]

I think they've been a lot better at executing this in recent games.

Masisak wrote a whole thing about the PP drop pass behind the Athletic paywall - he didn't distinguish between drop passes and back passes.

It looks stupid when it gets broken up at the neutral zone, but it's not possible to get in with every entry.

 

[devilsblood]

I think they've been a lot better at executing this in recent games.

Masisak wrote a whole thing about the PP drop pass behind the Athletic paywall - he didn't distinguish between drop passes and back passes.

It looks stupid when it gets broken up at the neutral zone, but it's not possible to get in with every entry.

I'm thinking the "back pass" is what we are seeing with today's PP.

Where as the "drop pass" is what we have seen in the league forever, moreso a type of pass then a tactic.

I'm guessing that is the distinction that was meant.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I can look up posts from last year that claimed Santini was already a ''Top 4 defenseman''.

And at least one person has already claimed Mueller is a top 4 defenseman today, as it was done so just in the post that I was replying to in my post you quoted.

I don't think anyone got so caught up that they believed Santini was a legit top4 guy - but I completely agree with the rest of your post.

And on the topic of giveaways. Don't some of you guys realize that guys like Vatanen and Severson (Butcher too) give the puck away more than a guy like current Andy Greene or Santini/Lovejoy/Mueller? Scott Niedermayer probably had twice as many turnovers in a season than a guy like Ken Daneyko. Even Scott Stevens probably had a significantly higher amount of turnovers than a guy like Ken Daneyko or Tommy Albelin or Colin White. This was because those other guys I mentioned were almost allergic to the puck when they played, outside of being able to ice it on the PK.

Nope. Scott Niedermayer certainly had 10x the giveways during his rookie year than just about anyone - but please lets not set comparisons because after his first two years he was EXTREMELY responsible with the puck. I understand that these guys create offense, and that is something we desperately need from the back end. I also believe that Severson has taken big strides this year.

But PLEASE don't confuse guys like Niedermayer with guys like Karlsson and the two on our team. Niedermayer probably could've put up a ridiculous amount of points. So could have (and did) Stevens, until Lemaire got to them and showed them the value of making the smart play and not just throwing any shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.... because you can. Niedermayer also knew how to tie people up, to cut passes and how to use his stick.

Vatanan is a step down from Zidlicky in terms of sense and he's a step backwards this year from last year. Severson improves every game but he's still fishing pucks out of the net more than he should be. I know you love these guys, and our team is better for them, but until they become complete defensemen, we're just not going to win games with them in our top pairing.

 

[My3Sons]

I’m seeing a fair amount of discussion about the defenders in their own end and in transition but my thought is that the forwards probably have more they can do as well. Whether it is in the defensive end or keeping their feet moving and getting open on the zone exit. My perception is that the centers are good defensively for the most part but I’ve seen them whiff on coverages at times. I haven’t focused as much on the wings.

 

[Billdo]

Jesus that's a lot of essayesque posts on one page. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

 

[Devils731]

I’m seeing a fair amount of discussion about the defenders in their own end and in transition but my thought is that the forwards probably have more they can do as well. Whether it is in the defensive end or keeping their feet moving and getting open on the zone exit. My perception is that the centers are good defensively for the most part but I’ve seen them whiff on coverages at times. I haven’t focused as much on the wings.

The wings position in the defensive zone has been poor since Hynes got here. I believe the wingers are playing their position as asked normally but they provide both poor support and mediocre primary defense yet they still have to skate a lot and use up a bunch of energy.

For all the not great defensive work the wingers have you would think they would be in good positions for the breakout but the breakout often relies on the winger winning a board battle rather than having either winger skating to open space on the ice.

 

[Davegarri]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

 

[Better Call Sal]

It kills me with Noesen right now. I really don't think he's been terrible but he simply hasn't produced, and when he's looked bad, he has looked very bad. I think he's just another one of our guys fighting it right now, feeling like they're constantly getting bogged down and crushing themselves mentally.

It's hard for some to believe, but he's actually producing at about the same rate he was last year at this time.

 

[FooteBahl]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

It’s time for JQ to be given another shot.

 

[johnny pierogi]

It’s time for JQ to be given another shot.

Fast forward two weeks:

'So is it time to send JQ back down?'

 

[Devilsfan118]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

Can't be soon enough.

Thanks for last year, it was fun. But this guy is useless out there.

 

[johnny pierogi]

Right now I'm more interested in Shero somehow finding out a way to tear up Miles Wood's contract than sending down a career fourth liner

 

[I Hate Tie DOMI]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

It would mean more DREW STAFFORD. Is that better? I don't think so.

 

[NjDevsRR]

I miss posting my giant image of a nose

But yeah he has been atrocious, worse than Wood and that is saying a lot.

 

[NjDevs4994]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

Right after lovejoy

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

It is amazing how bad teams fans are all the same. The fans want the coach fired, they blame the goal tender, and there is constant discussion of bottom of the roster players like Noesen and Boyle.

 

[Devil X]

Fast forward two weeks:

'So is it time to send JQ back down?'

Problem with JQ is he needs to play higher in the line up. We have seen him come in a get 4th line minutes and he is unless. He need to be up with higher end players and also on the PP. If not then we are just giving him room to fail i believe.

Right after lovejoy

He hasnt been that bad in his role.

 

[BenedictGomez]

when is Noesen gonna be waived?

Noesen isnt doing anything well this year.

Even the folks who worship at the alter of Corsi cant hang their hat on that, Noesen has the worst Corsi on the team.

NOTE: The most impressive number on this chart is Zajac at 50.1%, as he's only 36.8% OSZ. That is absolutely phenomenal.

 

[Patrik26]

The problem with the back-pass is the Devils' execution of it, and that at points they seem entirely dependent on it in that they won't even consider another option even it's not there. Way too often are the two forwards starting to gain momentum too late, by the time either of them get the pass back they are just starting to skate up in the defensive zone. It gives the opposition all the time in the world to reset and get ready to defend them, which often leads to a failed entry. And I guess I kind of get why they do so given that they'll often make a pass back to one forward who will hit the forward on the other side in motion, but it's not working. There's too little space to move with and it just ends up being a turnover more often than not.

Then there's the problem of being too dependent on the tactic at times, but I mean it's Butcher carrying the puck on the first wave and he's not exactly the fleetest of foot to maneuver around defenders if option A needs to be aborted.

Ya, I was thinking the same, seems that our d-man makes the back pass and the fwd's are just so far back. Moreso then other teams.

Not seems. It IS, and it's frustrating to watch. Kowalsky was brought in FOR the PP and the result has been underwhelming.

https://thehockeywriters.com/new-jersey-devils-power-play-problems/

 

[Patrik26]

So when is Noesen gonna be waived?

Soon. Please VERY SOON. Like today.

 

[NJDevs26]

It is amazing how bad teams fans are all the same. The fans want the coach fired, they blame the goal tender, and there is constant discussion of bottom of the roster players like Noesen and Boyle.

You’re not wrong but...bad teams usually do have bad goaltending and bad coaching.

 

[zharkenby]

Do people still think zacha is good? Asking for a friend