Post-Game Talk: Devil VII

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And with Quinn, it was a lot of shouting, but at the end of the day, every time Panairn had a laugher, Quinn responded by giving him 23 minutes.

When the benchings happen, it's usually because the whole team doesn't look good, and that's why it's usually low-hanging fruit like Kakko.

It was a lot of empty calories behind the bench, and Edge warned that Gallant would basically keep the same system and culture, just he's a nicer guy and brings a bit of swagger, which he did. Year one is over now.

You need to have specific standards and discipline players when they don't do specific things, not yell at Kakko because the team is getting outshot by Anaheim again. Nobody responds to that.

And all players "respect" the coach on a certain level and will say the right things. It's the lizard part of the brain you have to get into. They have to know in their fibers not to f*** around.

I think you would actually like Panarin if we had a structure. Torts loves the guy. It doesn't make him a bad professional or a bad teammate that he needs a structure. It makes him human.

I did like Panarin when he used to play with even a speck of grit and determination. He hasnt made a play on the forecheck or touched the blue paint since Wilson bongo'd his head off the ice. I hope you are right that a new staff/structure can save him because we're f***ed otherwise.

Maybe right, but on the accountability issue alone Panarin is the problem.

Panarin is a fun and likable guy in the locker room but he is a bad teammate. No accountability with the media (all season!) while Trouba & Mika (who both sucked this series) fall on the sword, and Kreider who had 6 goals in the series blaming himself personally for the loss.
 
I did like Panarin when he used to play with even a speck of grit and determination. He hasnt made a play on the forecheck or touched the blue paint since Wilson bongo'd his head off the ice. I hope you are right that a new staff/structure can save him because we're f***ed otherwise.
His first season it felt like he won every board battle and actually knew how to play defense. It's upsetting to see what he has become.
 
Just to be clear, you don't believe the Bears would be vastly different if they got Mahomes? If any of the QBs they took were that level they would have risen elsewhere.

I believe the Bears would have screwed Mahomes up, yes.

Would he still be a little better than Justin Fields? Sure, but the Bears have a 30+ year history of inability to get production out of QBs, whether it's a veteran, whether it's a high draft pick, whatever.

I wonder if it has something to do with their culture of worshipping the defense and making the offense an afterthought?

(Spoiler alert: Yes)

The Bears never have a cohesive offense, they are always shit at WR, or at OL, or their coach doesn't know offense, there is always some major problem holding it back. It's philosophical at it's root.

And it absolutely impacts their player development.

I think almost everyone here would say that Lafreniere's biggest weakness by far, is a lack of speed.

There are some players who excel without some speed, but that number shrinks every season. They have become the exceptions to the rule.

To rise to the level Lafreniewre did, he had to have a very good hockey IQ. That he has now lost that makes no sense.

Well all you need to do is watch the guy on the ice and see that he makes bad decisions. His decision making is shit at this level.

He's not processing quick enough, which to me, tells me that he doesn't have the confidence that he used to have and he doesn't have a mastery of what decision he should be making so that he can make it quick enough. This could be coming from lots of things, not least of which is (1) lack of reps on offense, (2) instruction that runs counter to his instincts and what he's good at, (3) lack of foot speed leading to increased pressure to make a quick decision, (4) lack of structure/scheme that is conducive to a young, inexperienced player being able to read the play and make the right decision.

It's definitely all of the above, so you aren't wrong when you say he's slow, but the Rangers have as much a hand in it as anyone.

It's patently absurd to simply blame the players four times in a row. Andersson and Kravtsov are completely non functional as NHLers and two others were supposed to be can't-miss superstars and can barely play the third line at a good level.

Our organization is the opposite of a force multiplier for offensive talent. It's a force weakener. We get 30 cents on the dollar for offensive talent. It has happened again and again. It's undeniable. Even if Lafreniere lacks the elite speed to be a 100 point player, his hockey smarts should be getting him to 60 with no problem. He should be able to pass even if he's not fleet of foot.

But he can't do that either because he's lost on offense. The team is to blame for his bewilderment.
 
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Can't wait to hear Drurys comments about this disappointing failure of a season
 
Its kind of why you need young players though. You are right, offense is about more than just having talent to plug in and say go.

But that's why you need more Kakkos and Lafrenieres. Not necessarily first and second overall picks, but you need the kind of young talent you find in the top 10 of the draft who can be molded and grown into a coherent system, like the Devils have done.

We don't have that even though our tit-for-tat talent comparison should stack up favorably against NJ. Ours are aging dogs and everyone knows you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
The Devils had almost a perfect rebuild and yes, they had a ton of luck. I don't think you can necessarily mirror that.

There are teams out there with aging cores and vets in the lineup who have their shit together a lot more than we do.

Dallas developed Robertson and Hintz despite having "no room" while keeping their vets together. Boston basically torched the roster around Bergeron and Marchand if you compare today's team to the team ten years ago and they never even took a step back. Edmonton got it right an eternity into their rebuild.

I can see the argument that maybe we should have been more patient back in 2019 but this is what we have now and I don't think we necessarily need to hit the nuclear codes yet.
 
I did like Panarin when he used to play with even a speck of grit and determination. He hasnt made a play on the forecheck or touched the blue paint since Wilson bongo'd his head off the ice. I hope you are right that a new staff/structure can save him because we're f***ed otherwise.



Panarin is a fun and likable guy in the locker room but he is a bad teammate. No accountability with the media (all season!) while Trouba & Mika (who both sucked this series) fall on the sword, and Kreider who had 6 goals in the series blaming himself personally for the loss.

I don't know if he's a bad teammate, but he definitely gets the special treatment. And if that doesn't cause an inkling of resentment among others, then they're not human.

You go back to the Trouba helmet toss now in hindsight and you know something there is not right. Trouba is a neanderthal but his work ethic is airtight.
 
The Devils had almost a perfect rebuild and yes, they had a ton of luck. I don't think you can necessarily mirror that.

There are teams out there with aging cores and vets in the lineup who have their shit together a lot more than we do.

Dallas developed Robertson and Hintz despite having "no room" while keeping their vets together. Boston basically torched the roster around Bergeron and Marchand if you compare today's team to the team ten years ago and they never even took a step back. Edmonton got it right an eternity into their rebuild.

I can see the argument that maybe we should have been more patient back in 2019 but this is what we have now and I don't think we necessarily need to hit the nuclear codes yet.

Robertson & Hintz developed in Dallas because ownership pushed to demote their albatrosses Seguin & Benn and it worked out for all parties. Rangers can mirror that but cutting the vets minutes and giving bigger roles to the Kids. They arent lost causes despite what you say.

I don't know if he's a bad teammate, but he definitely gets the special treatment. And if that doesn't cause an inkling of resentment among others, then they're not human.

I think this is a major reason why our high draft picks have stagnated. Panarin didnt want to play with Kakko/Chytil and blocks Lafreniere while he stick handles and headfakes to no one in particular before turning the puck over.
 
Robertson & Hintz developed in Dallas because ownership pushed to demote their albatrosses Seguin & Benn and it worked out for all parties. Rangers can mirror that but cutting the vets minutes and giving bigger roles to the Kids. They arent lost causes despite what you say.

Skating skating skating, then strength coaching. Everything else falls in place after that. They can't do the things that their minds are able to think up because they can't get to where they want to be 90% of the time.
 
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Why do so many young players excel as rookies? It can't be development.

The only advantage they have is that if their team stinks, they'll play a ton of minutes.

Players learn things like positioning and the tricks of the trade. They don't learn speed and offensive explosiveness.

I find it near impossible to believe that anyone thinks Hughes wouldn't be great on any team and that Lafreniere would be great somewhere else.
Speed can be improved too, if the team would focus on developing players. Maybe they have a limitation on their body, that maxes out their speed with their current technique. Then you improve the technique.

Rangers are one of the richest organizations in the sport. There's no excuse why they can't take advantage of this. They can't cheat the salary cap, but they can hire tons of people to work with what they have. And if it's not happening right now, change those people. Pretty sure that's what @Machinehead has been screaming about as well.
 
I did like Panarin when he used to play with even a speck of grit and determination. He hasnt made a play on the forecheck or touched the blue paint since Wilson bongo'd his head off the ice. I hope you are right that a new staff/structure can save him because we're f***ed otherwise.
That team was getting shut the f*** OUT by any decent team that year before the Wilson incident. Trust me, it's the way they play. If he doesn't respond, then you move on and also maybe think about a harder reset.

I would like to see us augment this group and I certainly think they have one more coach in them before we pull the plug.

Honestly, we have a few more years of Kreider/Mika/Panarin/etc. before we're resetting anyway. You might as well have a kick at the can those years as opposed to blowing it up now instead of in 2027.
 
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Miller should stay, Trouba has to GTFO immediately.

For his salary, the phrase "net negative," doesn't begin to do it justice.

We could get three players better than Trouba for what he makes.

It's unfathomable to me that they named this guy captain. It tells me they have no ability to self scout. Why would you name a guy captain who should be on the short list to deport? They have no idea he stinks, that's the problem.

They think it's still 1995 and that his big hits matter. They don't. What matters is that he's awful at defending and can't move the puck quickly.

Trouba being an absolute pylon aside, I'm going to shit keep shitting on our system.

I was mocked here when we played Carolina last that we would have trouble with their stifling forechecks if we played them in the playoffs. I got laughed at with people saying, "Well, we beat them already didn't we?"

Our breakout is horrendous. Every other team besides us seems to have a bumper middle man in the breakout. If there's pressure, our D-men just ring it up the boards for a forward to tip out with no possession or we just ring it around for a turnover. We have been doing this ALL YEAR. We never get the two passes we need to start a rush and it handcuffs our D-men because we skip that little inside, bumper man to begin the breakout. Instead we just go up the board or try to make a long breakout pass that never materializes.
 
Speed can be improved too, if the team would focus on developing players. Maybe they have a limitation on their body, that maxes out their speed with their current technique. Then you improve the technique.

Rangers are one of the richest organizations in the sport. There's no excuse why they can't take advantage of this. They can't cheat the salary cap, but they can hire tons of people to work with what they have. And if it's not happening right now, change those people. Pretty sure that's what @Machinehead has been screaming about as well.
There's not much you can do about top speed but there's no reason Lafreniere should be skating at a sub-NHL level. There's technique to it. We could improve it enough for him to at least forecheck.
 
The Devils had almost a perfect rebuild and yes, they had a ton of luck. I don't think you can necessarily mirror that.

There are teams out there with aging cores and vets in the lineup who have their shit together a lot more than we do.

Dallas developed Robertson and Hintz despite having "no room" while keeping their vets together. Boston basically torched the roster around Bergeron and Marchand if you compare today's team to the team ten years ago and they never even took a step back. Edmonton got it right an eternity into their rebuild.

I can see the argument that maybe we should have been more patient back in 2019 but this is what we have now and I don't think we necessarily need to hit the nuclear codes yet.

I mean, I guess, but I'm not trying to emulate Dallas. They are similarly kinda stuck in "not good enough" land, even if they are better off than us.

Boston, sure, they have won a Cup and have been to two others and should have been a finalist this year, so I can see the argument for trying to model yourself after them, but I think what we are seeing is that Panarin and Mika are no Bergeron and Marchand, and as of yet we don't have a Pastrnak either.

I don't think we can count on being able to reform this group so that when Mika is 36 he can play the Bergeron role.

I don't think we have to go totally nuclear and trade out Panarin, Mika, Kreider, Trouba, Goodrow, Trocheck, Shesterkin, anyone on a second contract, but.... I think you need to move enough names to (1) be bad enough to get back into the top 10 for a SHORT-ish amount of time (enough time to find some more impact young kids, and then rebuild around what's still young enough and left over, like Fox), and (2) to recoup first round picks or young players with upside that you can develop under a new administration to offensive bloom.

Like I said elsewhere, not sure you can teach too many old dogs new tricks. I don't think you can run it back with everyone. Some people, multiples, need to go, and it needs to bring back the assets to find some Dawson Mercers of our own, at least. Not sure how we ever get over the fact that we don't have a Jack Hughes of our own though. I think we're f***ed unless we luck into a Pastrnak.

The sad part is that we were supposed to be the team with the "perfect rebuild," before we ruined all our players.
 
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Speed can be improved too, if the team would focus on developing players. Maybe they have a limitation on their body, that maxes out their speed with their current technique. Then you improve the technique.

Rangers are one of the richest organizations in the sport. There's no excuse why they can't take advantage of this. They can't cheat the salary cap, but they can hire tons of people to work with what they have. And if it's not happening right now, change those people. Pretty sure that's what @Machinehead has been screaming about as well.
I've heard from multiple people that the rangers have a terrible skills development coach. Makes no sense.
 
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That team was getting shut the f*** OUT by any decent team that year before the Wilson incident. Trust me, it's the way they play. If he doesn't respond, then you move on and also maybe think about a harder reset.

I would like to see us augment this group and I certainly think they have one more coach in them before we pull the plug.

Honestly, we have a few more years of Kreider/Mika/Panarin/etc. before we're resetting anyway. You might as well have a kick at the can those years as opposed to blowing it up now instead of in 2027.

Panarin is going nowhere and Trouba is going nowhere, it is what it is. Anyone pushing that all summer is wasting breath. The new coach needs to get them to commit to a system and not rely on Kreider/Mika/Fox/Panarin/Trouba to do everything. If they can empower Chytil/Kakko/Lafreniere/Miller to actually have significant roles on this team, like other teams have done with their homegrown players, all will improve.
 
I mean, I guess, but I'm not trying to emulate Dallas. They are similarly kinda stuck in "not good enough" land, even if they are better off than us.

Boston, sure, they have won a Cup and have been to two others and should have been a finalist this year, so I can see the argument for trying to model yourself after them, but I think what we are seeing is that Panarin and Mika are no Bergeron and Marchand, and as of yet we don't have a Pastrnak either.

I don't think we can count on being able to reform this group so that when Mika is 36 he can play the Bergeron role.

I don't think we have to go totally nuclear and trade out Panarin, Mika, Kreider, Trouba, Goodrow, Trocheck, Shesterkin, anyone on a second contract, but.... I think you need to move enough names to (1) be bad enough to get back into the top 10 for a SHORT-ish amount of time (enough time to find some more impact young kids, and then rebuild around what's still young enough and left over, like Fox), and (2) to recoup first round picks or young players with upside that you can develop under a new administration to offensive bloom.

Like I said elsewhere, not sure you can teach too many old dogs new tricks. I don't think you can run it back with everyone. Some people, multiples, need to go, and it needs to bring back the assets to find some Dawson Mercers of our own, at least. Not sure how we ever get over the fact that we don't have a Jack Hughes of our own though. I think we're f***ed unless we luck into a Pastrnak.
Those people up in Boston have the pitchforks out for their own HC and core. Honestly I would take Marchand if it could be done.
 
Why do so many young players excel as rookies? It can't be development.

Why can't it?

Scheme and usage, which are immediate, are certainly parts of development.

Also Jack Hughes scored just 21 points (0.34 ppg) then 31 points (0.55 ppg) his first two seasons before exploding into a PPG+ monster his third year.

Kakko was 23 points (0.35 ppg) as a rookie but then... you guessed it, he's stagnated.

The only advantage they have is that if their team stinks, they'll play a ton of minutes.

Players learn things like positioning and the tricks of the trade. They don't learn speed and offensive explosiveness.

That's why you've heard so many of us lamenting the lack of power play time or top 6 minutes for the kids and why it is, in fact, a very real issue.
 
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Panarin is going nowhere and Trouba is going nowhere, it is what it is. Anyone pushing that all summer is wasting breath. The new coach needs to get them to commit to a system and not rely on Kreider/Mika/Fox/Panarin/Trouba to do everything. If they can empower Chytil/Kakko/Lafreniere/Miller to actually have significant roles on this team, like other teams have done with their homegrown players, all will improve.
Should be a sticky post in the roster construction thread or something. I mean it's fun to talk in hypotheticals and we have a whole summer to do it, but the only vet who might go is Goodrow. The rest, we are stuck with and that's the way it is.

Maybe a new coach is not that much better than Gallant, but that's all you can do at this point.
 
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Panarin is going nowhere and Trouba is going nowhere, it is what it is. Anyone pushing that all summer is wasting breath. The new coach needs to get them to commit to a system and not rely on Kreider/Mika/Fox/Panarin/Trouba to do everything. If they can empower Chytil/Kakko/Lafreniere/Miller to actually have significant roles on this team, like other teams have done with their homegrown players, all will improve.
I think vets and young players would both improve from getting rid of the "make a play" culture.

The vets do what they want and have anti-chemistry with everyone, and the kids don't know how to just do things at this level with zero guidance and two to three vets on the ice with them doing two to three different things.
 
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