Detroit Redwings Downfall

[FMichael]

Man, what happened to the Wings ability to develop players?
Hronek is the high water mark of that franchise from the past 15 years. The inability to graduate later round prospects into NHLers is a good way to stay in the basement unless you luck into a McDavid.

For real...

Holland's drafting left us with very mixed results while Yzerman's appears much MUCH better...JUst Yzerman's choice of coaching staff, trades, and UFA signings have been a bit of a

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Ryan Donato doesn't move the needle. Why on earth would they trade a 2nd for him?

Better question - why shouldn't they have dangled a 2nd round pick for a clear upgrade?

Yzerman has war-chested and stocked draft picks for 6 years now. He needs to stop acting as though trading a 2nd round pick for a player that can help them now (and make his current players happy and reward them for their efforts) means that he's dropping an atomic bomb on his entire tenure in Detroit as GM.

Dylan Larkin has already started pushing back on Yzerman's snail-pace of a rebuild, and several insiders have confirmed that more than a few players were not happy that he refused to do anything meaningful at the deadline.

(Larkin didn't help himself by disappearing down the stretch, and yeah, he failed to elevate his own game. But that doesn't mean he's wrong about his thoughts on not adding at the Deadline.)

This was always going to take a long time, 6 years would be minimum. Colorado used 10+. Tampa the same. Florida a long time too. Edmonton a long time.

It didn't take any of the aforementioned teams that long to just be in the playoffs. (Meanwhile, Florida and Edmonton had Detroit Lions level of horrifyingly inept management during those years.)

That's the same kind of argument that the Steve bots try and use.

-"But but Yzerman never won a Cup until he was 34!"
-"But but Devellano's rebuild wasn't complete until 1997!"

As I said before, Yzerman had nearly 100 games of playoff experience under his belt by the time that 1997 rolled around.

Nobody is saying Detroit should be Cup winners/contenders by now. But in no universe is a playoff appearance by the end of year 6 of a GM's tenure on the job too unreasonable of an expectation.

Sometimes the meaningful results is the building process taking place and not the end results. No results besides Stanley Cup is meaningful in that case.

Again, the building process is taking too long. It does not - I repeat - does not take 6 years for a proper rebuild to yield a Wild Card playoff appearance.

"But but Buffalo!" Don't care. They're not the subject. Yzerman arrived in Detroit as supposedly the best GM in hockey, and he's failed to deliver.

Said without any evidence what so ever.
Team could spend to the cap if they want, so no this just isn't correct.

You're aware of his cheapness with the Tigers and the abysmal, embarrassing failure of District Detroit, right?

You're aware of the report (which has been corroborated by several insiders) that he refused to let Yzerman sign Stamkos, right?

If they have a plan, and sticking to that plan with the approval from the ownership to do so, then they don't need your approval of their plan.

Translation - screw the paying customer and drift aimlessly in mediocrity into continuum. What a business plan. Lol.

Again, no one has said a team is going to win the cup on their first try.

Then why are you so adamantly against the cornerstone players getting the postseason experience that they need?

But you just want to get in to be playoff fodder, and you just want to be there. They don't. They want to achieve more. If that means, in their perspective that the chance of being able to achieve more over longer period of time, is by letting the prospects mature to the potential they have and using extra time to build them up to be solid contributors to get there to the point they will be competitive for many more years than you want, they will do so.

Translation - don't make the playoffs until you're Cup contenders. That's what you're saying it boils down to.

In the meantime, it's Yzerman's job to put a competitive roster on the ice if he expects the fans to continue supporting it. If the goal isn't to win, then why should fans care?

You're free to track down fans who choose to no longer spend money on a product that isn't worth their time and blast them as being "not real fans", but don't expect them to agree.

Yeah, just like the Kraken. Working well for them right? Leg up!

Kraken playoff wins since 2021: 7
Red Wings playoff appearances since 2017: 0

Yeah, the young players on Seattle who were a part of the team in 2023 have a leg up on Detroit.

And won no Cups and complain about their future as one and done's or yearly playoff fodder like you like.

You have to get to the playoffs first in order to win. Other teams have rebuilt quicker than the Red Wings and have the chance to do so. Neither Montreal nor Ottawa is worried about their future. Neither is Dallas. Neither is Los Angeles. All of whom have missed the playoffs and gotten back in the time that Yzerman has been back in Detroit.

If you're content to see the Red Wings wallow in mediocrity, allow a losing culture to fester, Little Caesars Arena go damn near a decade of existence with zero playoff hockey, all based on nothing but "trust me, the kids are gonna rock" garbage plan that Yzerman is attempting to sell, that's your right.

You also can't get offended when other Red Wings fans (the majority) have run out of patience. Your Red Wings fan card won't disappear in a puff of smoke and your fan allegiance won't shift to the 1996 Avalanche if you admit that Yzerman must show more urgency to start delivering an acceptable product.

 

[PettersonHughes]

As an outsider fan, besides some subpar signings/ moves (Copp, Chiarot, trading Walman to name a few), I wonder if one major factor would be not finding that #1 G? When the Wings were making the playoffs guys like Mrazek and Howard were the backstops, but now with the revolving carousel of goalies perhaps the play would be to either overpay for a workhorse (easier said than done) or let one of Cossa/ Augustine eventually take that role? Some of the kids may be starting to emerge (Kasper, Edvinsson, ASP) to complement the core guys playing in other positions (Seider, Larkin, Raymond, DeBrincat).

 

[sxvnert]

Yzermans insistence on rebuilding on the fly has been a train wreck for this rebuild. Had he tanked earlier on until he had a decent young core to build around then maybe the fanbase could see an end to this but as is, theres no end in sight.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Yzermans insistence on rebuilding on the fly has been a train wreck for this rebuild. Had he tanked earlier on until he had a decent young core to build around then maybe the fanbase could see an end to this but as is, theres no end in sight.

In his first year, they were literally the worst team in NHL history since the expansion Atlanta Thrashers. It was pretty obvious that the NHL was never going to allow them to have a top-3 pick when they fell back to 4th in the 2020 Lottery.

 

[SirKillalot]

Better question - why shouldn't they have dangled a 2nd round pick for a clear upgrade?

Who is a 29 year old Donato who prior to this season never had more than 31 points a clear upgrade of?
You think he's an upgrade of Kasper? You think he is getting this production if he play bottom six in Detroit? No. They not wasting picks on what they got already.

Just like Walman is a clear upgrade right? Walman who by his "fantastic" defense cost Edmonton multiple goals against in their first game vs. the Kings.

Yzerman has war-chested and stocked draft picks for 6 years now. He needs to stop acting as though trading a 2nd round pick for a player that can help them now (and make his current players happy and reward them for their efforts) means that he's dropping an atomic bomb on his entire tenure in Detroit as GM.

Donato can't help them now.

Again, the building process is taking too long. It does not - I repeat - does not take 6 years for a proper rebuild

Actually it does, there is enough evidence of this out there.

You're aware of his cheapness with the Tigers

I don't care about the Tigers. What he does with the Tigers has no bearings on what he does with the Red Wings. You said he is cheap, they could spend to the cap if they wanted to. Those two things don't align. Meaning, you are blatantly wrong.

You're aware of the report (which has been corroborated by several insiders) that he refused to let Yzerman sign Stamkos, right?

You are aware that Nashville offered more money and the family wanted to go there right?
Ownership refused nothing.

Translation - screw the paying customer

Translation, if customer not happy they can stop and go elsewhere. Yzerman's job is to build a team that can fight for something long term, not appease your short term agenda.

Then why are you so adamantly against the cornerstone players getting the postseason experience that they need?

I'm not against it getting postseason experience. I'm against it on your terms of rushing there because you think that is super helpful for the franchise long term.

Translation - don't make the playoffs until you're Cup contenders. That's what you're saying it boils down to.

No, for the 100th time, not a single person me included said they are cup contenders first time they make it there. Just a more competitive team.

Kraken playoff wins since 2021: 7
Red Wings playoff appearances since 2017: 0

Yeah, the young players on Seattle who were a part of the team in 2023 have a leg up on Detroit.

Kraken consistent playoff appearances: 1 year
Kraken positive upside for the future: Question marks.

Fact is Kraken overperformed and not dealing with the pressure of it, which seems to for now have folded their possible upswing they could have had building confidence and looks to have to take a longer route than maybe initially because an early playoff experience was "so positive".

You have to get to the playoffs first in order to win. Other teams have rebuilt quicker than the Red Wings and have the chance to do so. Neither Montreal nor Ottawa is worried about their future. Neither is Dallas. Neither is Los Angeles. All of whom have missed the playoffs and gotten back in the time that Yzerman has been back in Detroit.

Dallas started rebuilding a long time ago. They were also a re-tooling team for a bit, they already had their franchise guys in the team. Done well with adding guys to it.

LA didn't rebuild, they had a bad year in 2018-19 and used two seasons to re-tooled. In 2019-20 they were even 13th in goals against, they just couldn't score and had aging guys in Brown, Carter and Kovalchuk. And year after was shortened season as well. They still had and have their core guys from prior to their re-tool.

Neither Montreal and Ottawa is worried about their future? Okay sure. For the last 20 years that's all what Ottawa has been worried about.

I think the Montreal rebuild has more of a plan than Ottawa's, so will be interesting to see how it pans out. I just don't see Ottawa having a good enough team to win, they have players who will improve yes. But, unless they push a bit of a re-tool, how they are structured now I don't think they will win. They can always get hot similar to how Erik Karlsson got hot when he was there. But yeah time will tell.

And yes you have to get to the playoffs first to win, but you also have to have a good enough team to be able to win. In that regards, long term. Montreal and Detroit I think is doing better than Ottawa right now when it comes to setting up something that can have potential for success.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not following, so Moser was not a good use of a pick in the 2nd round? Would help if you could clarify what you meant by bringing up that he was not in his first go around of the draft.

It would make sense that an older player is further ahead in development. Unless your bar for Yzerman is to draft every single NHL player in every single draft it doesn’t make much sense to cherrypick other guys who have made it to the NHL and hold it against him. Especially when one is 3 years older and knowing your argument is based on a fluke injury to Mazur.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Who is a 29 year old Donato who prior to this season never had more than 31 points a clear upgrade of?
You think he's an upgrade of Kasper? You think he is getting this production if he play bottom six in Detroit? No. They not wasting picks on what they got already.

Who said anything about an upgrade? Detroit needed a replacement for Copp, considering his season was over. The players in the room agreed, considering they were all peeved that a meaningful addition wasn't made.

And no, I didn't say trade Kasper.

Just like Walman is a clear upgrade right?

Jake Walman is prime Nicklas Lidstrom compared to the crap we have to watch named Justin Holl and Jeff Petry.

Walman who by his "fantastic" defense cost Edmonton multiple goals against in their first game vs. the Kings.

You mean.....in Game 1 of the playoffs? Which Detroit hasn't reached since 2016?

(Nobody here thinks Walman is some defensive stud. But he's absolutely head and shoulders above some of the garbage on Detroit's current blue line.)

Actually it does, there is enough evidence of this out there.

No, there isn't. A rebuild led by the supposed best GM in hockey should not take 6 years to yield a playoff spot in a League where literally half the teams make it in. Nobody cares what Buffalo (or Edmonton during their decade of darkness with management that rivaled the Detroit Lions in pure ineptitude) did.

This isn't a debate. You're trying to argue that there is more than one possible answer to 2+2. You're wrong.

I don't care about the Tigers. What he does with the Tigers has no bearings on what he does with the Red Wings. You said he is cheap, they could spend to the cap if they wanted to.

Except they aren't. Lol.

You are aware that Nashville offered more money and the family wanted to go there right?
Ownership refused nothing.

You are aware that multiple insiders inside of the organization have corroborated the fact that Stamkos was going to sign in Detroit until cheapskate Chris Ilitch never allowed it, right?

Translation, if customer not happy they can stop and go elsewhere.

When your paying customers stop supporting your product and go elsewhere, that means that you've failed.

That's such an odd attempted flex.

Yzerman's job is to build a team that can fight for something long term, not appease your short term agenda.

Yzerman's job is not to allow a losing and hopeless culture to fester.

I don't have a "short-term agenda" - hence wanting Detroit's core players like Seider and Raymond to experience the realities of playoff hockey in order to make them better in the long run for when they are ready to realistically compete for a title.

Dallas started rebuilding a long time ago. They were also a re-tooling team for a bit, they already had their franchise guys in the team. Done well with adding guys to it.

LA didn't rebuild, they had a bad year in 2018-19 and used two seasons to re-tooled. In 2019-20 they were even 13th in goals against, they just couldn't score and had aging guys in Brown, Carter and Kovalchuk. And year after was shortened season as well. They still had and have their core guys from prior to their re-tool.

All of the aforementioned teams have missed the playoffs and have gotten back into the playoffs since Steve Yzerman has been employed as GM of the Red Wings.

Neither Montreal and Ottawa is worried about their future? Okay sure. For the last 20 years that's all what Ottawa has been worried about.

Both of them have a chance for a title this year, and both have leapfrogged Detroit in their respective rebuilds. That's a major indictment on Yzerman.

And yes you have to get to the playoffs first to win, but you also have to have a good enough team to be able to win.

And Yzerman has failed to build such a team. No, the 100% pure hopium of "just wait for the kids" (none of whom aside from ASP and MAYBE Cossa are anything special) doesn't mean a hill of beans in the here and now.

I (and the overwhelming majority of Red Wings fans) don't care about 2029. It's time to start winning now. It's unacceptable that this team is entering year 7 under Yzerman and has yet to make the playoffs.

If Yzerman fails to make meaningful moves this summer (fireable offense) and they somehow fall short of the playoffs in 2026, then he cannot remain the GM of this team any longer.

You're free to think differently. Just know that you're in the extreme minority.

 

[SirKillalot]

Who said anything about an upgrade? Detroit needed a replacement for Copp, considering his season was over. The players in the room agreed, considering they were all peeved that a meaningful addition wasn't made.

And for a team not being in a position to do anything, trading away a 2nd round pick for a short term solution is not a good choice. Better to draft a player with that pick and hope to hit on that.

Jake Walman is prime Nicklas Lidstrom compared to the crap we have to watch named Justin Holl and Jeff Petry.

Yet neither moves the needle for the Wings. Thus its an overblown discussion to think Walman was someone special.

You mean.....in Game 1 of the playoffs? Which Detroit hasn't reached since 2016?

(Nobody here thinks Walman is some defensive stud. But he's absolutely head and shoulders above some of the garbage on Detroit's current blue line.)

Its a diversion answer cause you cannot answer the fact that Walman was liability on ice yesterday.

No, there isn't. A rebuild led by the supposed best GM in hockey should not take 6 years to yield a playoff spot in a League where literally half the teams make it in. Nobody cares what Buffalo (or Edmonton during their decade of darkness with management that rivaled the Detroit Lions in pure ineptitude) did.

This isn't a debate. You're trying to argue that there is more than one possible answer to 2+2. You're wrong.

Why do you always compare with Buffalo when no one else has?
Again its a diversion.
Compare with those who have built a team and won something and not the one who hasn't had a good team since 2007.

You are right, its not a debate. Cause you are inept to answer the debate questions. Tampa. Chicago. LA. St Louis. Washington. Florida. Colorado. Etc. How long did it take them to build their teams? That is the question, and the answer is somewhere above 10 years in most cases.

Except they aren't. Lol.

Again a diversion. The fact is they have 2+ million in cap space.
It doesn't make sense to spend just to spend. Needs to be with a purpose if they do. Also makes no sense to toss away draft picks for players just to do it.

Should have been a bell ringing when they took on some of Yanni Gourde's cap for a pick, that they are not in a position where they think its wise to spend high picks for short term solutions if it makes no sense.

You are aware that multiple insiders inside of the organization have corroborated the fact that Stamkos was going to sign in Detroit until cheapskate Chris Ilitch never allowed it, right?

Is it one thing these multiple insiders don't have, is correct information. Can't remember the last time some of these insiders had correct info about Detroit.

When your paying customers stop supporting your product and go elsewhere, that means that you've failed.

No, it just means those customers don't align or don't understand your plan. Many of those again is here for short term fun, which isn't what this management is looking for. But yeah for that can support Seattle Kraken. They had a year of short term fun. Fits your agenda.

I don't have a "short-term agenda" - hence wanting Detroit's core players like Seider and Raymond to experience the realities of playoff hockey in order to make them better in the long run for when they are ready to realistically compete for a title.

In order to make them better, they need to have a competitive team in the playoffs. They don't get better by being totally outclassed. You don't have to "learn" for the same amount of seasons as Yzerman did to win. Its not as black and white.

All of the aforementioned teams have missed the playoffs and have gotten back into the playoffs since Steve Yzerman has been employed as GM of the Red Wings.

And neither been close to winning anything or even being on sustainable deeper runs. Thus they not really much ahead in their progress then.

Both of them have a chance for a title this year

Southampton could also have won the Premier League before it started.

I (and the overwhelming majority of Red Wings fans) don't care about 2029.

You aren't the overwhelming majority.

You're free to think differently. Just know that you're in the extreme minority.

I'm not part of an extreme minority. There is more people for the plan than not.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Again, no one has said a team is going to win the cup on their first try. But you just want to get in to be playoff fodder, and you just want to be there. They don't.

Exactly, they need playoff experience, pushing the window back to get in, just delays everything.
By letting players marinate in GR, they will still go out early, on their initial try getting in.

 

[Voight]

The issue with Detroit is unlike most rebuilds they have no game breaking talent (Matthews, McDavid, Makar etc). Raymond might get there and has shown major strides but other than him, there aint much. Seider has the potential to be one but that remains to be seen.

& while I'm sure they have a good prospect pool there aren't any names except Kasper that really stand out and look like future top line players.

 

[SirKillalot]

Exactly, they need playoff experience, pushing the window back to get in, just delays everything.
By letting players marinate in GR, they will still go out early, on their initial try getting in.

Difference is you think it takes years and years and years of tried. I think it takes. less.
It waits to be seen who is right.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Difference is you think it takes years and years and years of tried. I think it takes. less.
It waits to be seen who is right.

lol, well what’s it up to now, 9 or 10 years since playoffs, approaching Buffalo territory of futile, if don’t start taking steps.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It would make sense that an older player is further ahead in development. Unless your bar for Yzerman is to draft every single NHL player in every single draft it doesn’t make much sense to cherrypick other guys who have made it to the NHL and hold it against him. Especially when one is 3 years older and knowing your argument is based on a fluke injury to Mazur.

Ironically you don't seem to realize that Carter Mazur, who you keep hyping up due to his... 1 game played in the NHL... was also an "overage" pick. March '02 birthday, when the first time draft eligibles in the 2021 Draft were born September 16, 2002 through September 15, 2003.

 

[Czechboy]

Seider is going to the World's. I imagine he will get a lot of opportunity and minute's!

 

[StreetHawk]

The issue with Detroit is unlike most rebuilds they have no game breaking talent (Matthews, McDavid, Makar etc). Raymond might get there and has shown major strides but other than him, there aint much. Seider has the potential to be one but that remains to be seen.

& while I'm sure they have a good prospect pool there aren't any names except Kasper that really stand out and look like future top line players.

The Wings, without elite top end talent, need more guys around the Larkin/Raymond production level up front. DCat has given them 67 and 70 point seasons, which is roughly what you expect out of him.
I don't get the sense Kasper/Danielson are expected to give you similar production as their 2 top guys.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Raymond had the most points out of any player who was u23 this season. Why is it that Raymond can’t ever be an elite talent but other rebuilding teams somehow have elite talent we don’t? Seider just had one of the best defensive defenseman seasons in the NHL while putting up 46 points. These guys are very good talents that have a pretty trash roster around them.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Why is it that Raymond can’t ever be an elite talent

He can be, if he gets there. 28th in scoring isn't an elite talent, but maybe he takes another step forward.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

He can be, if he gets there. 28th in scoring isn't an elite talent, but maybe he takes another step forward.

I never said he was an elite talent, I’m saying how is Raymond, who led all U23 in points, can’t be an elite talent, but other players similarly aged are on track to be? It makes no sense to me. Elite talent also benefits from playing with elite talent. Do you guys think marner would be as good as he is now if he didn’t get to develop with Matthews ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I never said he was an elite talent, I’m saying how is Raymond, who led all U23 in points, can’t be an elite talent, but other players similarly aged are on track to be? It makes no sense to me. Elite talent also benefits from playing with elite talent. Do you guys think marner would be as good as he is now if he didn’t get to develop with Matthews ?

That just sounds like a piece of trivia to me. Guy like Pastrnak had his first top 20 in scoring season when he was 20 years old, so what do I make of Raymond being 28th at age 22? That I guess no 23 year olds were very high in scoring this year. Raymond had a very good season, so we'll see if he builds further on it next year.

From that draft, Lafreniere was supposed to be the "elite talent" but hasn't lived up to it. Raymond hitting and slightly exceeding his expectations wouldn't all of a sudden graduate him into "elite talent" status by default or anything like that.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

That just sounds like a piece of trivia to me. Guy like Pastrnak had his first top 20 in scoring season when he was 20 years old, so what do I make of Raymond being 28th at age 22? That I guess no 23 year olds were very high in scoring this year. Raymond had a very good season, so we'll see if he builds further on it next year.

From that draft, Lafreniere was supposed to be the "elite talent" but hasn't lived up to it. Raymond hitting and slightly exceeding his expectations wouldn't all of a sudden graduate him into "elite talent" status by default or anything like that.

That’s not trivia, that’s called being the best amongst your peers of the same age lol. Clown post

 

[WarriorofTime]

That’s not trivia, that’s called being the best amongst your peers of the same age lol. Clown post

Yeah, it's trivia, it's nice trivia, but in and of itself just tells you the exact parameters of whatever it was you set up. Who had the top U22 scoring season? U26 scoring season? Who had the most points since February 3rd? What you supposed to make out of any of that?

It's like this tongue and cheek thing displayed during an NBA game once upon a time.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Yeah, it's trivia, it's nice trivia, but in and of itself just tells you the exact parameters of whatever it was you set up. Who had the top U22 scoring season? U26 scoring season? Who had the most points since February 3rd? What you supposed to make out of any of that?

It's like this tongue and cheek thing displayed during an NBA game once upon a time.

Not even close man lmao this is such bad posting it’s unreal. Raymond had the most points of anyone in the league u23 this season. That’s not cherry picked at all. It literally means he had the most points out of all his peers of the same age. You sound like a clown.

 

[izlez]

Yzermans insistence on rebuilding on the fly has been a train wreck for this rebuild. Had he tanked earlier on until he had a decent young core to build around then maybe the fanbase could see an end to this but as is, theres no end in sight.

What? The whole point is that he is not rebuilding on the fly. He is essentially signing warm bodies as placeholders while building through the draft.

Seider and Raymond are studs.
2 first round rookies played very very well this year
4 more top-17 picks already in the pipeline

That is the young core. That is the plan.

Even if you hate those players, the plan is exactly what you are saying it should be.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not even close man lmao this is such bad posting it’s unreal. Raymond had the most points of anyone in the league u23 this season. That’s not cherry picked at all. It literally means he had the most points out of all his peers of the same age. You sound like a clown.

Yes, it's cherrypicked. It's not the most egregious cherrypicked example (like that Thad Young thing) or anything like that, but of course it's cherry picked. Yes, he had the most points out of anyone who is 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 years old by finishing the year with 1 point more than Stutzle. Considering Raymond is at the high end of that 5-year age bracket, that likely means some people might think some of the ones on the younger side of that age bracket to perhaps have a bit more runway in terms of their development. Fair comment?

Yes, if you define his peers as "him and everyone younger than him" that's of course one thing. If you look at drafts two years prior and two years after so that his "peers" are more akin to one where he's in the mid-point age-wise, so 2018-2022 drafts, you have like Quinn Hughes, Jack Hughes, Brady Tkachuk, Tim Stutzle, Logan Cooley, Rasmus Dahlin, Matt Boldy, Andrei Svechnikov, Juraj Slafkovsky, Jake Sanderson, Kent Johnson, Evan Bouchard, Noah Dobson, Owen Power, Moritz Seider, Luke Hughes, Lane Hutson, Wyatt Johnston, Dylan Guenther, Matthew Knies, Cole Caufield, Kirill Marchenko, Logan Stankhoven, Aliaksei Protas, Seth Jarvis, Matthew Beniers, Alexis Lafreniere, Simon Edvinsson, William Eklund, Dylan Cozens, Mason McTavish, Joel Farabee, Dawson Mercer, Shane Wright, Pavel Mintyukov, Cutter Gauthier, Marco Kasper, Frank Nazar, Cole Sillinger, Brandt Clarke.. these are the guys that will always be +/- two years of age with him and likely have substantial overlapping primes. You can decide and squabble for yourself how he stacks up on a long-term basis with everyone in that group.