Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Ulysses31]

A big thing you gotta consider when chasing big name UFAs is that they destroy an internal cap.

It seems pretty evident that the hold up with Seider, and the reason he didn't get an 8th year, was because they weren't going to let him make more than Larkin's $8.7M.

It's hard to tell the next group of guys "You don't get to make more than X" when you throw $12.5M at a Rantanen or a Marner. Not to mention it probably pisses off a guy like Seider who was likely told you can't make more than Larkin did, but then you turn around and give some outsider $4M/year more.

... All this aside from the fact that I think giving a UFA winger $12.5M/year is stupid in the first place lol.

think my offer would be about be around 10 or 11, being as they are marginally better players than larkin. if they signed for that huge of a discount i dont think any of seider, raymond, or larkin would feel slighted considering amount of $ left on table

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

think my offer would be about be around 10 or 11, being as they are marginally better players than larkin. if they signed for that huge of a discount i dont think any of seider, raymond, or larkin would feel slighted considering amount of $ left on table

Yeah... Neither of them is doing that haha.

 

[thefutures]

Marco kasper playing OUTSTANDING in January

 

[Ulysses31]

Yeah... Neither of them is doing that haha.

well obviously. I said that clearly above.

 

[J15]

guy way too eager to blow money on ufa superstar imo.

1) spits in eye of every player who took team friendly contracts like larkin raymond n seider did

So we can't sign any UFAs because it might offend Larkin, Raymond, or Seider? Every UFA is going to have inflated contracts not just the superstars.

2) even with tavares took a team friendly deal with the leafs he has still underperformed his contract (1mil or 2 Imo)

First of all, pointing to a bad free agent signing is not an argument against all free agent signings. The Leafs were right to sign Tavares. Sure they completely choked their cup window away, but they were right for at least trying to go for it.

3) related to 1)good luck getting decent rfa contracts in future

Future contracts are going to be dictated by market value across the league, not what players on the current roster are making.

4) also related to 1) core players will make drw pay out the nose when contracts up

Players will try and maximize the money they make regardless. Do you really think Yzerman is going to walk into his negotiation with Edvinsson's agent and say "we didn't sign Mitch Marner to a 14M AAV contract" and Edvinsson's agent will reply "yes good point, we will now lower our ask".

5) IMO hone what you got, sign ufa players who wanna b here to team friendly contracts, whether they 4th liners to superstars or players late in careers wanting to win

All fine but what happens when you've signed all the team friendly contracts that players want to sign and you still have 20M in cap space left over? Are we just not going to spend to the cap because we couldn't find enough players willing to take discounts? Fans don't celebrate good contracts because we saved the owner some money. The entire benefit of having contracts like Larkin, Raymond, and Seider is that we can now afford to go out and sign elite talent in FA.

6) longevity and patience soundest bet on trying to make a winner (SY obv alrdy knows that)

Mo Seider was drafted 6 years ago. The core is entering their prime. You have more quality prospects and picks than you will ever be able to fit in your roster. You have one of the best cap situations in the NHL. At some point you need to hit the gas and turn those organization advantages into on ice wins.

 

[nbwingsfan]

A lot of the criticism in this thread has been people calling the Wings as a mid team when they are playing to they best, saying they don't have the elite pieces to be a contender and don't have the ways to get them.

So a mid team being in a wildcard spot isn't super surprising.

They are the best team in the league since the coaching change by record.

Raymond is top 20 in scoring

Seider is pacing for 50pts playing 25mins a game.

Both U24…. No elite talent?

We have like a billion prospects

No way to acquire top talent?

Okay guy

 

[Czechboy]

All these celebratory backflips after being in a wildcard spot for about 24 hours. Amazing stuff.

Marco kasper playing OUTSTANDING in January

Just to be clear, I've also posted other Rono cards that are praising Wing's players and yes I know some people hate the cards. 12 points in 16 games is quite good for a rookie!

 

[thefutures]

All these celebratory backflips after being in a wildcard spot for about 24 hours. Amazing stuff.



Just to be clear, I've also posted other Rono cards that are praising Wing's players and yes I know some people hate the cards. 12 points in 16 games is quite good for a rookie!

View attachment 971963

Don't think it has anything to do with being in a wildcard spot, and more to do with making fun of people that questioned the entire rebuild cause of a bad 2 months of hockey. BTW yzerman by his own words said this team should be competing for wild card before the season and after firing Lalonde, so why shouldn't ppl be happy? Keep moving the goalposts about where this team is supposed to be based on your feelings about the GM.

 

[theVladiator]

All these celebratory backflips after being in a wildcard spot for about 24 hours. Amazing stuff.

A downfall that ends in a backflip is a good kind of downfall I say.

Just to be clear, I've also posted other Rono cards that are praising Wing's players and yes I know some people hate the cards. 12 points in 16 games is quite good for a rookie!

View attachment 971963

Have no issues with critique of our players. That said, not sure I buy this one. The card appears to use data over the whole year, so is weighed heavily towards the first 2/3 spent on the 4th line. First of all, that is hardly a rebuttal of Kasper doing extremely well in January (which was the reason you quoted this card). Second, with Kasper clearly having improved his analytics in the larger role in January, the results covering the whole year cannot be used to assert Kasper "needs to be better" still (this was the point of the embedded X post).

 

[Czechboy]

First of all, that is hardly a rebuttal of Kasper doing extremely well in January (which was the reason you quoted this card).

Actually no. I've posted several cards all over HF and always do. I've posted several very positive cards in this thread as well.

About to go to Kulichs draft page and post his too.

Hope you noticed I posted Kaspar's January stats too!

I've been keeping tabs on Kaspar vs Kulich all season to be honest. Same draft, one went 8 and the other 28 I think?

As far as focusing on the whole season and not just the most recent success. I actually think that's reasonable. Same with standings and making playoffs. My Oil have started both seasons in the basement of the NHL and got demolished on HF a lot worse than the Yzerplan. Luckily, the season isn't 1 month long!

 

[Czechboy]

bad 2 months of hockey

This thread was never about a bad 2 months.

BTW yzerman by his own words said this team should be competing for wild card before the season

Really? Because the first several pages had a lot of Yzerplan fans saying he stated from the start how long it would take, to be patient and that making the playoffs does not determine whether the Yzerplan is good or not.

I'll flat out ask you.

The Yzerplan is a success if they make playoffs or it isn't a success if they don't make playoffs? Is making the playoffs the key here?

 

[thefutures]

This thread was never about a bad 2 months.


Really? Because the first several pages had a lot of Yzerplan fans saying he stated from the start how long it would take, to be patient and that making the playoffs does not determine whether the Yzerplan is good or not.

I'll flat out ask you.

The Yzerplan is a success if they make playoffs or it isn't a success if they don't make playoffs? Is making the playoffs the key here?

Wait a minute, you don't even know what yzerman has been saying, but you have an opinion on his rebuild and where you think his team should be?

Anyway, I think making the playoffs would be a sign of clear improvement and a step in the right direction. It's a clear hurdle for any rebuild. Why does this season decide if the rebuild is a failure or success? Seems like an odd declaration to make in the middle of the rebuild, unless you have an agenda.

 

[RedHawkDown]

This thread was never about a bad 2 months.


Really? Because the first several pages had a lot of Yzerplan fans saying he stated from the start how long it would take, to be patient and that making the playoffs does not determine whether the Yzerplan is good or not.

I'll flat out ask you.

The Yzerplan is a success if they make playoffs or it isn't a success if they don't make playoffs? Is making the playoffs the key here?

It has nothing to do with actually making or not making it. It has to do with being competitive and improving year over year and at least trying for a playoff spot as opposed to continuing to be shit forever. If they miss by 2 points or something vs making it in by 2 points there’s no functional difference in terms of how the rebuild is going

The first several pages were full of people proclaiming the Yzerman is a total failure and that we have no talent and all our prospects suck. Absurd.

 

[norrisnick]

Really? Because the first several pages had a lot of Yzerplan fans saying he stated from the start how long it would take, to be patient and that making the playoffs does not determine whether the Yzerplan is good or not.

I'll flat out ask you.

The Yzerplan is a success if they make playoffs or it isn't a success if they don't make playoffs? Is making the playoffs the key here?

You're talking about two very different things. The "Yzerplan" is the over-arching plan with the intention of building a long time contender. The statements from the beginning of the season about being in the same place this season as last season (ie competing for a wild card spot) are the short term expectations. Whether the Wings get in this year or not is irrelevant if the long term goal of building a team that can contend deep into the playoffs ends up successful.

 

[Czechboy]

It has nothing to do with actually making or not making it. It has to do with being competitive and improving year over year and at least trying for a playoff spot as opposed to continuing to be shit forever. If they miss by 2 points or something vs making it in by 2 points there’s no functional difference in terms of how the rebuild is going

The first several pages were full of people proclaiming the Yzerman is a total failure and that we have no talent and all our prospects suck. Absurd.

I'll disagree with the second part...

everyone agreed that Seider, Larkin and Raymond were very good to great. The redraft arguments have been very strong! Raymond and Seider would both go higher today. So would Ed. So will, most likely, Asp. One of the 2 goalies should end up elite.

I'll disagree about the first part too. Making the playoffs and losing would still be a great building block for the future guys like Seider, Ed and Kasper. Might attract better free agents too!

FTR.. I agreed all along that making the playoffs wouldn't be a sign of success. I actually thought and said keeping Lalonde and tanking (and getting a top 3 pick) would be beneficial for next year.

 

[Czechboy]

Whether the Wings get in this year or not is irrelevant if the long term goal of building a team that can contend deep into the playoffs ends up successful.

Totally agree but I'm being told that Yzerman said ...

BTW yzerman by his own words said this team should be competing for wild card before the season

And I don't recall reading that and I've been here all season reading this thread.lol I recall reading what you (norrisnick) said. This was news to me this evening. I know Yzerman said something to that affect on December 27th after firing Lalonde.

There a link for the preseason quote of Yzerman saying wild card before the season? Being serious here. Happy to eat crow.

 

[norrisnick]

Totally agree but I'm being told that Yzerman said ...



And I don't recall reading that and I've been here all season reading this thread.lol I recall reading what you (norrisnick) said. This was news to me this evening. I know Yzerman said something to that affect on December 27th after firing Lalonde.

There a link for the preseason quote of Yzerman saying wild card before the season? Being serious here. Happy to eat crow.

Gimme a moment.

It's a series of questions from the free agency presser.



9:12 he outlines the overall long term plan.
12:30 he states that his expectations for this season is about where the team was last year, ie competing for one of those bottom spots.

 

[Ulysses31]

edit

 

[Lampedampe]

All these celebratory backflips after being in a wildcard spot for about 24 hours. Amazing stuff.

Meh, there were so many fans from opposing teams who acted smug for 2 months when the team was doing bad. Probably more than 200 pages between all threads.

Now when the Wings are doing quite well, we're supposed to not say a thing?

Also, framing is key here, celebrating being in a wild card spot for 24 hours is maybe abit silly. But that's not reallly what happened here, fans are celebrating going from being bottom-5 in the league to finally being in real play-off contention.

 

[Czechboy]

Meh, there were so many fans from opposing teams who acted smug for 2 months when the team was doing bad. Probably more than 200 pages between all threads.

Now when the Wings are doing quite well, we're supposed to not say a thing?

Also, framing is key here, celebrating being in a wild card spot for 24 hours is maybe abit silly. But that's not reallly what happened here, fans are celebrating going from being bottom-5 in the league to finally being in real play-off contention.

You should see what those pages look like every October/November when my Oil shit the bed and start in last place.lol

Lots to celebrate though... lots of winning, Kasper having a killer month, Seider finally getting love again, Ed having a a great rookie year, ASP ripping up the WJ's, Larkin looking elite and Raymond is probably either in or will be in that elite tier soon.

 

[RedHawkDown]

You should see what those pages look like every October/November when my Oil shit the bed and start in last place.lol

Lots to celebrate though... lots of winning, Kasper having a killer month, Seider finally getting love again, Ed having a a great rookie year, ASP ripping up the WJ's, Larkin looking elite and Raymond is probably either in or will be in that elite tier soon.

Just to say - Raymond is probably about 10x better than Larkin right now and it’s not particularly close. Larkin has had more points since the coaching change but Raymond is driving that line, absolutely zero question. He’s absolutely elite and the league will catch on soon enough.

 

[Czechboy]

Just to say - Raymond is probably about 10x better than Larkin right now and it’s not particularly close. Larkin has had more points since the coaching change but Raymond is driving that line, absolutely zero question. He’s absolutely elite and the league will catch on soon enough.

It's going well! I do like Larkin though.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

A big thing you gotta consider when chasing big name UFAs is that they destroy an internal cap.

It seems pretty evident that the hold up with Seider, and the reason he didn't get an 8th year, was because they weren't going to let him make more than Larkin's $8.7M.

It's hard to tell the next group of guys "You don't get to make more than X" when you throw $12.5M at a Rantanen or a Marner. Not to mention it probably pisses off a guy like Seider who was likely told you can't make more than Larkin did, but then you turn around and give some outsider $4M/year more.

... All this aside from the fact that I think giving a UFA winger $12.5M/year is stupid in the first place lol.

An internal hard cap number instead of a % of the cap at the time of signing number is how great teams lose elite talent for pennies on the dollar. Makes zero sense. Your captains feelings aren’t gonna get hurt, if anything they are upset you made their goal of winning a cup harder.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

Just to say - Raymond is probably about 10x better than Larkin right now and it’s not particularly close. Larkin has had more points since the coaching change but Raymond is driving that line, absolutely zero question. He’s absolutely elite and the league will catch on soon enough.

What’s your definition of elite? Top 5 forward? Top 10? How many elite forwards are there in the NHL? How many elite D?

 

[RedHawkDown]

What’s your definition of elite? Top 5 forward? Top 10? How many elite forwards are there in the NHL? How many elite D?

Top 15-20 forward. Considering there are 384 forwards dressed for an NHL team at any given time, I’d say that being in the top 4-5% of those is elite.

But yes, if you’re asking me his ceiling, absolutely I believe he can be a top 10 forward. Top 5, not sure, quite unlikely and I’d bet on no.