Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Luigi Lemieux]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

 

[LeighDx59]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

And?

He can make those moves when its necessary or when he feels they should be pushing for that Playoff spot. Who's available currently that is going to turn everything around right now and immediately turn them into a contender without gutting the entire prospect pool? Who's available that would even be worth it? And its clear he wasn't expecting them to be a playoff team anyways this year, so why would he make a trade? So posters on HFBoards dont call him a failure or make multiple threads about how bad he is? This is my point. Armchair GMs say he should tank cause the team is playing bad, and when he doesnt make trades to improve the team, or signs placeholder players, you go "well he should be doing stuff to improve the team cause they suck". Then, when theyre in the mushy middle, not getting top five picks and not making the Playoffs, people will go "well why did he try to improve the team with those trades then?".

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

And?

He can make those moves when its necessary or when he feels they should be pushing for that Playoff spot. Who's available currently that is going to turn everything around right now and immediately turn them into a contender without gutting the entire prospect pool? Who's available that would even be worth it? And its clear he wasn't expecting them to be a playoff team anyways this year, so why would he make a trade? So posters on HFBoards dont call him a failure or make multiple threads about how bad he is? This is my point. Armchair GMs say he should tank cause the team is playing bad, and when he doesnt make trades to improve the team, or signs placeholder players, you go "well he should be doing stuff to improve the team cause they suck". Then, when theyre in the mushy middle, not getting top five picks and not making the Playoffs, people will go "well why did he try to improve the team with those trades then?".

Well yea that's my point he's hamstrung the team with bad contracts and kind of stuck right now.

 

[BB88]

So I’ll ask for the third time now. Should all the teams I had listed tear it down and rebuild since they’re missing two franchise forwards?

On that same note, should Boston tear it down since they only have Pastrnak? It’s clearly hopeless for them, right?

Also hilarious thinking Raymond and Larkin aren’t on the level of Kuznetsov

Pasta isn’t a franchise forward?
& yes they aren’t build to win the Cup the way they are and they need to figure it out

Kuz was the MVP on that Washington run and on a different level than to either Larkin or Raymond have been and who’s your Ovy? Or are we just going to ignore that part

Why do you ignore all the evidence? That if you want to win the Cup you need a better player to build around your offense than you currently have?

Year after year we see that yet for some reason you Detroit fans want to put blinders on and live in fanfasy land

It’s great that you blame me for not answering yet you never give a legit answer back

I’ve said this but you choose to ignore, every rebuilds plan should be to build a contender, that needs franchise players. If you can’t draft one you have to find that some other way. Now Detroit fans keep insisting they might have it in their prospect pool even though no one has showed any signs of it just because you can’t judge any prospect for 7-8 years because maybe one day they just choose to wake up and decide to be Kucherov!!

What a brilliant plan! I don’t see any way how that could go wrong

In the past you’ve had to earn the right to have those expectations but for Detroit fans every prospect they have and pick could be the next Kucherov

 

[BB88]

Kuznetsov? Toews? Stone? Raymond has out scored stones career high already and the other two aren’t exactly juggernauts

It’s easier to win with a franchise forward but it’s not mandatory, as Vegas and St. Louis have shown

The wings didn’t have the draft luck to draft one so they’ll have to try to build without it. Tf else is the point of this thread? We just shitting on Detroit because they dropped from 1st to 4th in 2020 and never moved up in the lottery?

Kuz had 32 points in 24 games that run

He was better than anyone on Detroit roster that season and why on earth would you leave Ovy out? To make your bad take better?

& that’s a stupid argument. Prime Stone is better than anyone on Detroits roster again and so is Eichel.
Stone+ Eichel winning the Cup is a proof you need high end talent and not that you don’t need high end talent, what a ridiculous take.

Also RoR won the Selke+ Conn Smythe that year and again was miles more impactfull than any current forward on Detroits roster

Toews was also again better than anyone on Detroits roster wake up and again why are we ignoring Kane who was better player than Toews?

Larkin- Raymond scares absolutely no one but please continue the rebuild the way you have, nobody needs to be afraid of Detroit now or going forward

Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Eichel- Stone
Etc

Does not support your argument for not needing talent, it does the exact opposite. Raymond and Larkin are miles behind those Cup winners key players

Edit

Prime Stone has always been considered as one of the best wingers in the game yet when Detroit fans have to defend their failed rebuild even he becomes a mediocre player all of a sudden when he’d be the best forward on their roster

 

[Golden_Jet]

Weak.

Only 7 have a .5 PPG or better and all but one of those were drafted outside the 1st round.

Try again.

Ottawa had 6 players on the ice last night from 2020 draft.

 

[newfy]

Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Point- Kucherov
Toews- Kane
Bergeron- Marchand
Crosby- Malkin
Ovy- Kuz
Eichel- Stone

History definitely suggests a franchise forward isn’t a must..

Detroit fans love to live in fantasy land

Not sure how this refutes what I said at all. Getting a franchise forward in the draft would make Detroits rebuild look way better. But it doesn't mean they cant build a competitive team the way they're going either.

Not a lot of teams have had the prospects on the back end during their rebuilds that Detroit does right now, so its not like they're necessarily going the conventional way with this rebuild either. So if they don't become a "dynasty" type team like Tampa, Chicago or the Pens... its pretty short sighted to say they cant be a St Louis/Vegas type team.

But is it a failed rebuild if the wings became the Hurricanes right now that everyone calls a contender? or what about if they become like those really good preds teams that had a pretty good 5 year run around 2014 or so and were still somewhat relevant with guys from that run the last few years as well?

 

[SirloinUB]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

I agree with your point about shrewd trades making a big difference but I think people are unrealistic about the timelines. You point to Florida as an example but Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 10 and 11 years before the Panthers won the cup. Additional examples include:

• Landeskog and Mackinnon were drafted 11 and 8 years before the avs won the cup.
• Hedman and Kucherov were drafted 11 and 7 years before Tampa won.

It's crazy, you look around the league and see countless examples like above, (caps, blues, Bruins, etc) and yet people expect yzerman to have turned this team in less than 5 years when the team he inherited had no semblance of a core.

Shit even looking at Vegas, which made many shrewd trades, Eichel and Theodore had been in the league for 8 years, Marchessault 10 years, etc. before they won the cup.

Yzerman will eventually get more aggressive but to suggest he already should have been is wild.

Patience has been the correct rebuilding path for Yzerman and the Detroit Red Wings.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Yes there Protoss. The one player.

Now please name the other players from the 2019 and 2020 draft who would be making an impact to bring the Wings back into the playoffs.

I’ll wait.


Please do share the “dozen” impact players from the 2019/2020 drafts that would be making a meaningful impact on the Wings.

I see Protas (arguably) and….. ???

30pt guys and bottom pairing D are what we already have.

Alex Vlasic
Faber
Laferriere

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts.

Which works just fine ...... if you're Yzerman's financial planner. Yzerman keeps getting paid for a long-rolling rebuild which may never end. If he gambles on a big trade that doesn't work out, he could be fired and then his suger train derails.

The real culprits here are those who have not demanded a realistic timeline for substantial success and then held Yzerman accountable for it.

 

[SirloinUB]

Which works just fine ...... if you're Yzerman's financial planner. Yzerman keeps getting paid for a long-rolling rebuild which may never end. If he gambles on a big trade that doesn't work out, he could be fired and then his suger train derails.

The real culprits here are those who have not demanded a realistic timeline for substantial success and then held Yzerman accountable for it.

What is a realistic timeline for substantial success for a team that had no meaningful prospects and 1 top 6 player at the start of the rebuild?

The Avs for example, won a cup 11 years after drafting the guy who would captain that team.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Kuz had 32 points in 24 games that run

He was better than anyone on Detroit roster that season and why on earth would you leave Ovy out? To make your bad take better?

& that’s a stupid argument. Prime Stone is better than anyone on Detroits roster again and so is Eichel.
Stone+ Eichel winning the Cup is a proof you need high end talent and not that you don’t need high end talent, what a ridiculous take.

Also RoR won the Selke+ Conn Smythe that year and again was miles more impactfull than any current forward on Detroits roster

Toews was also again better than anyone on Detroits roster wake up and again why are we ignoring Kane who was better player than Toews?

Larkin- Raymond scares absolutely no one but please continue the rebuild the way you have, nobody needs to be afraid of Detroit now or going forward

Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Eichel- Stone
Etc

Does not support your argument for not needing talent, it does the exact opposite. Raymond and Larkin are miles behind those Cup winners key players

Edit

Prime Stone has always been considered as one of the best wingers in the game yet when Detroit fans have to defend their failed rebuild even he becomes a mediocre player all of a sudden when he’d be the best forward on their roster

You really don't seem to get it.

No shit Lucas Raymond and Dylan Larkin are not at cup-run Eichel or cup-run Stone and cup-run Kuzy and cup-run RoR levels right now. If they were, we'd be at the top of the league, now wouldn't we?

The point is that those players only played at those levels a couple of times in their entire careers, and even during those levels, they never outscored guys like Larkin or Raymond by much. Therefore, it stands to reason that Raymond (for example) is also capable of raising his game to that elite level for a run or two, if those other guys did it. Is he a Ovy, Crosby, Malkin, Mack? No. Does he have the capability to be a Stone, Eichel, ROR, Kuzy? Uh, yeah, easily.

Nobody ever said Stone's a mediocre player. You said that. He's been a 1st line winger his whole career. So is Raymond.

I ignored the guys that are clearly better than the Detroit guys like Malkin, Crosby, etc because...they are clearly better? Why would I comment on guys that are objectively at another level?

My point is that there are teams - namely, Vegas and St. Louis - that have won the cup without a "franchise" player. Those teams had players that elevated their game beyond their usual level during their cup runs. Raymond and Larkin are easily at the level of those players who elevated their games (ROR/Kuzy/etc). Hence, Detroit has a reasonable chance at building a contender using a similar strategy. The alternative, i.e. drafting a Crosby, is not possible without a 1st overall pick, which they never got. So that's all they can do. You seem to be lost.

 

[thebestnic]

So now fans of opposing teams are not only telling Wings fans that their prospects arent going to turn into anything, but theyre also telling Wings fan how theyre feeling too? Hilarious.

Most rational Wings fans know where theyre at. They knew this team was going to take a step back with the loss of Walman/Ghost/Perron. I dont think we were expecting guys like Kane and Compher to take massive steps back to start the season. Yzerman preached patience, which is something alot more Red Wings fans have than everyone else. While the fanbases of the 31 other teams are foaming at the mouth damn near every game just to say how overrated Yzerman is and saying how he should've done this or done that, bitching that Detroit's rebuild should be over without getting any lottery help while at the same time bitching that Yzerman isnt doing enough to tank too somehow? A bunch of obsessed armchair GM's on this site are as delusional as they claim us Wings fans are. The fact that Detroit gets picked apart constantly despite everyone knowing where theyre at and what they need, compared to the Rangers (who actually got draft lottery help and should be at the top of the conference) and the Sabres who have had a bunch of lottery help multiple times throughout the past 13 years of rebuilding, is also hilarious.

Most Wings fans have been patient. I dont see us claiming that all of these signings are great, in fact most of us know that the players signed werent the best when the signings were made, were just not ignorant enough to assume Yzerman is going for the Cup with these signings. Chiarot, Holl, Gustafsson and Petry's deals are up in the next two seasons, right around the time guys like ASP should be knocking on the door, or other potential defensive prospects. And that doesnt take into consideration if someone becomes available that Yzerman feels will take them to the next step in a few years. The deals for Copp/Compher/Tarasenko will be up within the timeframe that guys like Danielson or MBN or Lombardi or whoever else should be knocking on the door.

Or he could stop signing crappy players and weaponize the cap, give a chance to prospects, try to find long term fit, etc. I don't buy that crap that making bad signing has no effect on the future of the team. If it wasn't Yzerman you would not be appealing to authority nearly as much

 

[WarriorofTime]

You really don't seem to get it.

No shit Lucas Raymond and Dylan Larkin are not at cup-run Eichel or cup-run Stone and cup-run Kuzy and cup-run RoR levels right now. If they were, we'd be at the top of the league, now wouldn't we?

The point is that those players only played at those levels a couple of times in their entire careers, and even during those levels, they never outscored guys like Larkin or Raymond by much. Therefore, it stands to reason that Raymond (for example) is also capable of raising his game to that elite level for a run or two, if those other guys did it. Is he a Ovy, Crosby, Malkin, Mack? No. Does he have the capability to be a Stone, Eichel, ROR, Kuzy? Uh, yeah, easily.

Nobody ever said Stone's a mediocre player. You said that. He's been a 1st line winger his whole career. So is Raymond.

I ignored the guys that are clearly better than the Detroit guys like Malkin, Crosby, etc because...they are clearly better? Why would I comment on guys that are objectively at another level?

My point is that there are teams - namely, Vegas and St. Louis - that have won the cup without a "franchise" player. Those teams had players that elevated their game beyond their usual level during their cup runs. Raymond and Larkin are easily at the level of those players who elevated their games (ROR/Kuzy/etc). Hence, Detroit has a reasonable chance at building a contender using a similar strategy. The alternative, i.e. drafting a Crosby, is not possible without a 1st overall pick, which they never got. So that's all they can do. You seem to be lost.

Don't see how Eichel and Pietrangelo aren't Franchise players. Agreed that Raymond as a Mark Stone level impact isn't asking for the world. Staying on the Forward front, Larkin being 28 is likely as good as he'll get. He's on a UFA deal already. A few years down the road, he likely flips from Prime to Aging and the Wings will have to hope he ages gracefully to still be giving his present day level of impact, or they'll be looking to replace his impact as he becomes more a depth guy.

Yzerman has largely been a pretty low event GM. He got there when Detroit had just missed the Playoffs three straight seasons and been rebuilding for a bit already. When he took over, he largely allowed the inherited 2017 and 2018 NHL Draft Picks to run their course and play their way into their present day value. He's by and large done the same with 2019 and 2020 NHL Draft Picks, players selected once he took over. Detroit seems largely stuck in the 2000s, hoping that they'll just draft their way out, which is easier said than done, overripening and hanging onto every prospect until it becomes clear there isn't anything there when they're done being waiver-exempt.

It's a bit early to say if 2021-2024 drafts will produce more depth and balance than the 2017-2020 drafts produced but I suppose after 10 drafts or so, Detroit will finally have their dream of a roster made up almost entirely of ex-Red Wing draft picks, but is that a sufficient recipe for a winning team?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Don't see how Eichel and Pietrangelo aren't Franchise players. Agreed that Raymond as a Mark Stone level impact isn't asking for the world. Staying on the Forward front, Larkin being 28 is likely as good as he'll get. He's on a UFA deal already. A few years down the road, he likely flips from Prime to Aging and the Wings will have to hope he ages gracefully to still be giving his present day level of impact, or they'll be looking to replace his impact as he becomes more a depth guy.

Yzerman has largely been a pretty low event GM. He got there when Detroit had just missed the Playoffs three straight seasons and been rebuilding for a bit already. When he took over, he largely allowed the inherited 2017 and 2018 NHL Draft Picks to run their course and play their way into their present day value. He's by and large done the same with 2019 and 2020 NHL Draft Picks, players selected once he took over. Detroit seems largely stuck in the 2000s, hoping that they'll just draft their way out, which is easier said than done, overripening and hanging onto every prospect until it becomes clear there isn't anything there when they're done being waiver-exempt.

It's a bit early to say if 2021-2024 drafts will produce more depth and balance than the 2017-2020 drafts produced but I suppose after 10 drafts or so, Detroit will finally have their dream of a roster made up almost entirely of ex-Red Wing draft picks, but is that a sufficient recipe for a winning team?

I agree with you. He needs to be much more aggressive. Make some risky trades, etc. I won't disagree there.

Jack eichel has a career high of 82 points in 2018-2019 with the Sabres. He's on a tear this year, but before this he's been a PPG player. I don't see how that is significantly better than Raymond moving forward.

Pietrangelo is a very good defenseman and you could say franchise-level. Seider and Edvinsson are also there. Having top end D isn't Detroit's problem (depth is).

but again, I agree. Unless Yzerman does much better in free agency and trades, the rebuild is cooked. But drafting won't be the reason it's cooked.

 

[Bank Shot]

I agree with your point about shrewd trades making a big difference but I think people are unrealistic about the timelines. You point to Florida as an example but Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 10 and 11 years before the Panthers won the cup. Additional examples include:

• Landeskog and Mackinnon were drafted 11 and 8 years before the avs won the cup.
• Hedman and Kucherov were drafted 11 and 7 years before Tampa won.

It's crazy, you look around the league and see countless examples like above, (caps, blues, Bruins, etc) and yet people expect yzerman to have turned this team in less than 5 years when the team he inherited had no semblance of a core.

Shit even looking at Vegas, which made many shrewd trades, Eichel and Theodore had been in the league for 8 years, Marchessault 10 years, etc. before they won the cup.

Yzerman will eventually get more aggressive but to suggest he already should have been is wild.

Patience has been the correct rebuilding path for Yzerman and the Detroit Red Wings.

You are comparing apples and oranges in these cases. When you are looking at other teams you are using total length outside the playoffs as rebuild length, but then only using Yzerman's tenure when looking at the Wings.

Larkin was drafted 11 years ago. Red Wings have been out of the playoffs for 8..soon to be 9 years.

Bill Zito didn't get 15 years in Florida to build the team. He got the job in 2020.

Which of these other teams you mention, continued to keep the same GM after missing the playoffs 6-7 years in a row?

 

[SirloinUB]

You are comparing apples and oranges in these cases. When you are looking at other teams you are using total length outside the playoffs as rebuild length, but then only using Yzerman's tenure when looking at the Wings.

Larkin was drafted 11 years ago. Red Wings have been out of the playoffs for 8..soon to be 9 years.

Bill Zito didn't get 15 years in Florida to build the team. He got the job in 2020.

Which of these other teams you mention, continued to keep the same GM after missing the playoffs 6-7 years in a row?

Why are you suggesting Yzerman should be held accountable for what happened before he was the GM?

Bill Zito had a franchise caliber player in Barkov and to a lesser extent Ekblad already in place. Yzerman wasn't so fortunate.


Moreover my point, is that in most cases its going to take at least 6 to 7 years (and often longer) after landing foundational pieces to win.

Yzerman has pieces believed to be foundational in Seider Ed and Ray who are 2-4 seasons removed from their draft. Expecting these dudes to be competing for cups 2-4 years after their draft when it took Mackinnon, Kuch, and Barkov 8, 7 and 11 years respectively is an absurd standard to hold Yzerman and his top young pieces to.

Despite this abursd standard, up to this point, Yzerman's team has been better every single season.

Yes this year appears to be a setback but rebuilding is NEVER linear.

I repeat, patience is still the best path for the Red Wings rebuild.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Well yea that's my point he's hamstrung the team with bad contracts and kind of stuck right now.

What exactly do the Wings have to trade that they can realistically afford to give up? What on the Wings roster would you even want? I don't disagree that trades are a big part of rebuilding, but you actually need to have something someone might actually want in a trade.

The problem isn't the "bad contracts," the problem is the lack of tradeable assets.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

What is a realistic timeline for substantial success for a team that had no meaningful prospects and 1 top 6 player at the start of the rebuild?

Vegas went from zero to Cup in 6 years, and while winning a Cup is an unrealistic expection, going to the playoffs regularly and deep into the playoffs occasionally within five years is quite reasonable.

Seattle also went from zero to playoffs in two years.

It is beyond time for Detroit to face the fact that Yzerman is a bust. Fire him and try again.

 

[SirloinUB]

Vegas went from zero to Cup in 6 years, and while winning a Cup is an unrealistic expection, going to the playoffs regularly and deep into the playoffs occasionally within five years is quite reasonable.

Seattle also went from zero to playoffs in two years.

It is beyond time for Detroit to face the fact that Yzerman is a bust. Fire him and try again.

The bolded is called an opinion, not a fact.

Also, expansion teams are a completely different scenarios and not good comparisons. Never mind the fact that Seattle missed playoffs last season, and are on track to miss again. One and done. What a shining example of successful team building

 

[LeighDx59]

Or he could stop signing crappy players and weaponize the cap, give a chance to prospects, try to find long term fit, etc. I don't buy that crap that making bad signing has no effect on the future of the team. If it wasn't Yzerman you would not be appealing to authority nearly as much

I agree with you on weaponizing the cap, but in terms of rushing prospects he feels arent ready? Thats a good way to end up ruining developement of players, thats where Edmonton went wrong for so many years. The ones who are going to be cornerstones like Seider and Raymond didn't make it to Grand Rapids because they were that good. Edvinsson benefitted with playing top minutes in Grand Rapids last season and has looked great when he made the roster this season. And in someone like Danielson's or Kasper's case, they couldve probably made the team a year or two ago but it was better to play top minutes and build confidence up.

And yeah, Yzerman has a longer leash in Detroit due to his history. But he has also been transparent and honest with where he see's the rebuild and how much time it'll take since day one. He hasn't promised Playoffs, he hasnt build up expectations, he's preached patience which is something alot of Wings fan understand. It's the opposing fans who think they know better than him and somehow expect Detroit to be competing in the Playoffs despite the lack of lottery luck and the absolute mess left before he took over, that have the biggest issues with Yzerman.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

The bolded is called an opinion, not a fact.

Also, expansion teams are a completely different scenarios and not good comparisons. Never mind the fact that Seattle missed playoffs last season, and are on track to miss again. What a shining example of successful team building

Is that you Steve?

 

[LeighDx59]

Vegas went from zero to Cup in 6 years, and while winning a Cup is an unrealistic expection, going to the playoffs regularly and deep into the playoffs occasionally within five years is quite reasonable.

Seattle also went from zero to playoffs in two years.

It is beyond time for Detroit to face the fact that Yzerman is a bust. Fire him and try again.

Vegas and Seattle isn't comparable to Detroit's situation and anyone trying to compare it is just vomtining out BS just case.

Vegas and Seattle didn't start out being hamstrung by bad contracts (Abelkader/Nielson/DeKeyser/etc) left by the previous GM. They had a clean slate, allowed to pick players from each team in the league (which benefitted Vegas more than Seattle given the amount of legit top talent available) and guarenteed top picks which allowed them to go the "shiny new toy" method of just slinging their top picks, players and first rounders for players like Eichel/Stone to build the Cup winning team (in Vegas' case). Not even comparable to Detroit's situation.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You are comparing apples and oranges in these cases. When you are looking at other teams you are using total length outside the playoffs as rebuild length, but then only using Yzerman's tenure when looking at the Wings.

Larkin was drafted 11 years ago. Red Wings have been out of the playoffs for 8..soon to be 9 years.

Bill Zito didn't get 15 years in Florida to build the team. He got the job in 2020.

Which of these other teams you mention, continued to keep the same GM after missing the playoffs 6-7 years in a row?

Ya I don’t see other teams resetting their rebuild cycle to the hiring of a new GM.
Buffalo never did that, and they’ve had a few GM’s , Ottawa is not saying their rebuild started last year.

 

[SirloinUB]

Ya I don’t see other teams resetting their rebuild cycle to the hiring of a new GM.
Buffalo never did that, and they’ve had a few GM’s , Ottawa is not saying their rebuild started last year.

When Gabe Landeskog was 2 years older than Lucas Raymond currently is, the Avs finished dead last in the league, 21 points behind the 2nd worst team and they already had a guy named Nathan Mackinnon on the team.