Detroit Redwings Downfall

[WarriorofTime]

I have taken at the list. There isn’t a single player that I can see who is more than a bottom 6 forward or a bottom pairing D in the entire two drafts outside of maybe Protas.

Thats it.

If you want to believe adding more 30pt guys would have any impact on the team then be my guest, but it’s entirely wrong.

You won’t post your list, because you know it doesn’t exist.

To clarify, you believe Brock Faber is a bottom pair defenseman?

 

[nbwingsfan]

To clarify, you believe Brock Faber is a bottom pair defenseman?

I stand corrected.

There are two players out of 372 who would make any kind of difference.

What a horrible GM for not finding them with such amazing odds in his favour !

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

Please do share the “dozen” impact players from the 2019/2020 drafts that would be making a meaningful impact on the Wings.

I see Protas (arguably) and….. ???

30pt guys and bottom pairing D are what we already have

You must not have looked long.

Protad of course is doing great. Faber is the #1 Dman on one of the best teams in the West. Vlasic has done very well in a tough situation in Chicago. Peterka and Macelli already have 50+ point seasons under their belt. Laferriere and Cuylle have been great this year, and are pacing for around 60 pts. Same for Voronkov. Dorofeyev is pacing for 30 goals. Kotchetkov is already an NHL goalie. And that's ignoring guys I haven't seen (like Andrae) and guys that are doing well in more limited roles (Evangelista, Pinto, Spence, Kastelic, Lohrei...)

Only one good player outside the first round? Come on. The Wings lack talent at every position; they could have used any of those guys. Yet despite stockpiling picks in the 2nd-4th rounds for those 2 drafts, the guys they picked after the 1st have yet to show NHL potential. It's not the end of the world, but it's absurd to pretend nobody good came out of those drafts just because Yzerman didn't find them.

 

[Dotter]

Alexei Protas went in the 3rd round, he has 14 goals this season. These are the picks you need in a rebuild. This is what Yzerman did well in Tampa and that hasn't translated to Detroit.

If Protas is your example of game breaker, then that gives me hope Kasper eventually fills that role by the same age as Protas. Kasper is producing at the same rate or better as Protus at 20, all the while looking like the better player at a 200-foot game.

Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[LeighDx59]

The difference is Rangers fans and Sabres fans know where their teams are at. They aren't in abject delusion like Wings fans are so they don't keep trying to debate that "everything's great"

So now fans of opposing teams are not only telling Wings fans that their prospects arent going to turn into anything, but theyre also telling Wings fan how theyre feeling too? Hilarious.

Most rational Wings fans know where theyre at. They knew this team was going to take a step back with the loss of Walman/Ghost/Perron. I dont think we were expecting guys like Kane and Compher to take massive steps back to start the season. Yzerman preached patience, which is something alot more Red Wings fans have than everyone else. While the fanbases of the 31 other teams are foaming at the mouth damn near every game just to say how overrated Yzerman is and saying how he should've done this or done that, bitching that Detroit's rebuild should be over without getting any lottery help while at the same time bitching that Yzerman isnt doing enough to tank too somehow? A bunch of obsessed armchair GM's on this site are as delusional as they claim us Wings fans are. The fact that Detroit gets picked apart constantly despite everyone knowing where theyre at and what they need, compared to the Rangers (who actually got draft lottery help and should be at the top of the conference) and the Sabres who have had a bunch of lottery help multiple times throughout the past 13 years of rebuilding, is also hilarious.

Most Wings fans have been patient. I dont see us claiming that all of these signings are great, in fact most of us know that the players signed werent the best when the signings were made, were just not ignorant enough to assume Yzerman is going for the Cup with these signings. Chiarot, Holl, Gustafsson and Petry's deals are up in the next two seasons, right around the time guys like ASP should be knocking on the door, or other potential defensive prospects. And that doesnt take into consideration if someone becomes available that Yzerman feels will take them to the next step in a few years. The deals for Copp/Compher/Tarasenko will be up within the timeframe that guys like Danielson or MBN or Lombardi or whoever else should be knocking on the door.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

 

[LeighDx59]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

And?

He can make those moves when its necessary or when he feels they should be pushing for that Playoff spot. Who's available currently that is going to turn everything around right now and immediately turn them into a contender without gutting the entire prospect pool? Who's available that would even be worth it? And its clear he wasn't expecting them to be a playoff team anyways this year, so why would he make a trade? So posters on HFBoards dont call him a failure or make multiple threads about how bad he is? This is my point. Armchair GMs say he should tank cause the team is playing bad, and when he doesnt make trades to improve the team, or signs placeholder players, you go "well he should be doing stuff to improve the team cause they suck". Then, when theyre in the mushy middle, not getting top five picks and not making the Playoffs, people will go "well why did he try to improve the team with those trades then?".

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

And?

He can make those moves when its necessary or when he feels they should be pushing for that Playoff spot. Who's available currently that is going to turn everything around right now and immediately turn them into a contender without gutting the entire prospect pool? Who's available that would even be worth it? And its clear he wasn't expecting them to be a playoff team anyways this year, so why would he make a trade? So posters on HFBoards dont call him a failure or make multiple threads about how bad he is? This is my point. Armchair GMs say he should tank cause the team is playing bad, and when he doesnt make trades to improve the team, or signs placeholder players, you go "well he should be doing stuff to improve the team cause they suck". Then, when theyre in the mushy middle, not getting top five picks and not making the Playoffs, people will go "well why did he try to improve the team with those trades then?".

Well yea that's my point he's hamstrung the team with bad contracts and kind of stuck right now.

 

[BB88]

So I’ll ask for the third time now. Should all the teams I had listed tear it down and rebuild since they’re missing two franchise forwards?

On that same note, should Boston tear it down since they only have Pastrnak? It’s clearly hopeless for them, right?

Also hilarious thinking Raymond and Larkin aren’t on the level of Kuznetsov

Pasta isn’t a franchise forward?
& yes they aren’t build to win the Cup the way they are and they need to figure it out

Kuz was the MVP on that Washington run and on a different level than to either Larkin or Raymond have been and who’s your Ovy? Or are we just going to ignore that part

Why do you ignore all the evidence? That if you want to win the Cup you need a better player to build around your offense than you currently have?

Year after year we see that yet for some reason you Detroit fans want to put blinders on and live in fanfasy land

It’s great that you blame me for not answering yet you never give a legit answer back

I’ve said this but you choose to ignore, every rebuilds plan should be to build a contender, that needs franchise players. If you can’t draft one you have to find that some other way. Now Detroit fans keep insisting they might have it in their prospect pool even though no one has showed any signs of it just because you can’t judge any prospect for 7-8 years because maybe one day they just choose to wake up and decide to be Kucherov!!

What a brilliant plan! I don’t see any way how that could go wrong

In the past you’ve had to earn the right to have those expectations but for Detroit fans every prospect they have and pick could be the next Kucherov

 

[BB88]

Kuznetsov? Toews? Stone? Raymond has out scored stones career high already and the other two aren’t exactly juggernauts

It’s easier to win with a franchise forward but it’s not mandatory, as Vegas and St. Louis have shown

The wings didn’t have the draft luck to draft one so they’ll have to try to build without it. Tf else is the point of this thread? We just shitting on Detroit because they dropped from 1st to 4th in 2020 and never moved up in the lottery?

Kuz had 32 points in 24 games that run

He was better than anyone on Detroit roster that season and why on earth would you leave Ovy out? To make your bad take better?

& that’s a stupid argument. Prime Stone is better than anyone on Detroits roster again and so is Eichel.
Stone+ Eichel winning the Cup is a proof you need high end talent and not that you don’t need high end talent, what a ridiculous take.

Also RoR won the Selke+ Conn Smythe that year and again was miles more impactfull than any current forward on Detroits roster

Toews was also again better than anyone on Detroits roster wake up and again why are we ignoring Kane who was better player than Toews?

Larkin- Raymond scares absolutely no one but please continue the rebuild the way you have, nobody needs to be afraid of Detroit now or going forward

Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Eichel- Stone
Etc

Does not support your argument for not needing talent, it does the exact opposite. Raymond and Larkin are miles behind those Cup winners key players

Edit

Prime Stone has always been considered as one of the best wingers in the game yet when Detroit fans have to defend their failed rebuild even he becomes a mediocre player all of a sudden when he’d be the best forward on their roster

 

[Golden_Jet]

Weak.

Only 7 have a .5 PPG or better and all but one of those were drafted outside the 1st round.

Try again.

Ottawa had 6 players on the ice last night from 2020 draft.

 

[newfy]

Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Point- Kucherov
Toews- Kane
Bergeron- Marchand
Crosby- Malkin
Ovy- Kuz
Eichel- Stone

History definitely suggests a franchise forward isn’t a must..

Detroit fans love to live in fantasy land

Not sure how this refutes what I said at all. Getting a franchise forward in the draft would make Detroits rebuild look way better. But it doesn't mean they cant build a competitive team the way they're going either.

Not a lot of teams have had the prospects on the back end during their rebuilds that Detroit does right now, so its not like they're necessarily going the conventional way with this rebuild either. So if they don't become a "dynasty" type team like Tampa, Chicago or the Pens... its pretty short sighted to say they cant be a St Louis/Vegas type team.

But is it a failed rebuild if the wings became the Hurricanes right now that everyone calls a contender? or what about if they become like those really good preds teams that had a pretty good 5 year run around 2014 or so and were still somewhat relevant with guys from that run the last few years as well?

 

[SirloinUB]

It requires some shrewd trading to turn into an elite team. Drafting is somewhat of a crapshoot, just sitting on draft capital and expecting an elite team to emerge is never gonna work. Look at how many incredible trades Florida made to turn into the best team in the league. If they just sat on the players they drafted they would have never won. Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts. Crappy players and contracts just block any meaningful trades that could have been made. Just a big failure all around.

I agree with your point about shrewd trades making a big difference but I think people are unrealistic about the timelines. You point to Florida as an example but Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 10 and 11 years before the Panthers won the cup. Additional examples include:

• Landeskog and Mackinnon were drafted 11 and 8 years before the avs won the cup.
• Hedman and Kucherov were drafted 11 and 7 years before Tampa won.

It's crazy, you look around the league and see countless examples like above, (caps, blues, Bruins, etc) and yet people expect yzerman to have turned this team in less than 5 years when the team he inherited had no semblance of a core.

Shit even looking at Vegas, which made many shrewd trades, Eichel and Theodore had been in the league for 8 years, Marchessault 10 years, etc. before they won the cup.

Yzerman will eventually get more aggressive but to suggest he already should have been is wild.

Patience has been the correct rebuilding path for Yzerman and the Detroit Red Wings.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Yes there Protoss. The one player.

Now please name the other players from the 2019 and 2020 draft who would be making an impact to bring the Wings back into the playoffs.

I’ll wait.


Please do share the “dozen” impact players from the 2019/2020 drafts that would be making a meaningful impact on the Wings.

I see Protas (arguably) and….. ???

30pt guys and bottom pairing D are what we already have.

Alex Vlasic
Faber
Laferriere

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Yzerman just signs crappy players and sits there for years waiting for his drafts.

Which works just fine ...... if you're Yzerman's financial planner. Yzerman keeps getting paid for a long-rolling rebuild which may never end. If he gambles on a big trade that doesn't work out, he could be fired and then his suger train derails.

The real culprits here are those who have not demanded a realistic timeline for substantial success and then held Yzerman accountable for it.

 

[SirloinUB]

Which works just fine ...... if you're Yzerman's financial planner. Yzerman keeps getting paid for a long-rolling rebuild which may never end. If he gambles on a big trade that doesn't work out, he could be fired and then his suger train derails.

The real culprits here are those who have not demanded a realistic timeline for substantial success and then held Yzerman accountable for it.

What is a realistic timeline for substantial success for a team that had no meaningful prospects and 1 top 6 player at the start of the rebuild?

The Avs for example, won a cup 11 years after drafting the guy who would captain that team.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Kuz had 32 points in 24 games that run

He was better than anyone on Detroit roster that season and why on earth would you leave Ovy out? To make your bad take better?

& that’s a stupid argument. Prime Stone is better than anyone on Detroits roster again and so is Eichel.
Stone+ Eichel winning the Cup is a proof you need high end talent and not that you don’t need high end talent, what a ridiculous take.

Also RoR won the Selke+ Conn Smythe that year and again was miles more impactfull than any current forward on Detroits roster

Toews was also again better than anyone on Detroits roster wake up and again why are we ignoring Kane who was better player than Toews?

Larkin- Raymond scares absolutely no one but please continue the rebuild the way you have, nobody needs to be afraid of Detroit now or going forward

Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Mackinnon- Rantanen
Barkov- Tkachuk
Eichel- Stone
Etc

Does not support your argument for not needing talent, it does the exact opposite. Raymond and Larkin are miles behind those Cup winners key players

Edit

Prime Stone has always been considered as one of the best wingers in the game yet when Detroit fans have to defend their failed rebuild even he becomes a mediocre player all of a sudden when he’d be the best forward on their roster

You really don't seem to get it.

No shit Lucas Raymond and Dylan Larkin are not at cup-run Eichel or cup-run Stone and cup-run Kuzy and cup-run RoR levels right now. If they were, we'd be at the top of the league, now wouldn't we?

The point is that those players only played at those levels a couple of times in their entire careers, and even during those levels, they never outscored guys like Larkin or Raymond by much. Therefore, it stands to reason that Raymond (for example) is also capable of raising his game to that elite level for a run or two, if those other guys did it. Is he a Ovy, Crosby, Malkin, Mack? No. Does he have the capability to be a Stone, Eichel, ROR, Kuzy? Uh, yeah, easily.

Nobody ever said Stone's a mediocre player. You said that. He's been a 1st line winger his whole career. So is Raymond.

I ignored the guys that are clearly better than the Detroit guys like Malkin, Crosby, etc because...they are clearly better? Why would I comment on guys that are objectively at another level?

My point is that there are teams - namely, Vegas and St. Louis - that have won the cup without a "franchise" player. Those teams had players that elevated their game beyond their usual level during their cup runs. Raymond and Larkin are easily at the level of those players who elevated their games (ROR/Kuzy/etc). Hence, Detroit has a reasonable chance at building a contender using a similar strategy. The alternative, i.e. drafting a Crosby, is not possible without a 1st overall pick, which they never got. So that's all they can do. You seem to be lost.

 

[thebestnic]

So now fans of opposing teams are not only telling Wings fans that their prospects arent going to turn into anything, but theyre also telling Wings fan how theyre feeling too? Hilarious.

Most rational Wings fans know where theyre at. They knew this team was going to take a step back with the loss of Walman/Ghost/Perron. I dont think we were expecting guys like Kane and Compher to take massive steps back to start the season. Yzerman preached patience, which is something alot more Red Wings fans have than everyone else. While the fanbases of the 31 other teams are foaming at the mouth damn near every game just to say how overrated Yzerman is and saying how he should've done this or done that, bitching that Detroit's rebuild should be over without getting any lottery help while at the same time bitching that Yzerman isnt doing enough to tank too somehow? A bunch of obsessed armchair GM's on this site are as delusional as they claim us Wings fans are. The fact that Detroit gets picked apart constantly despite everyone knowing where theyre at and what they need, compared to the Rangers (who actually got draft lottery help and should be at the top of the conference) and the Sabres who have had a bunch of lottery help multiple times throughout the past 13 years of rebuilding, is also hilarious.

Most Wings fans have been patient. I dont see us claiming that all of these signings are great, in fact most of us know that the players signed werent the best when the signings were made, were just not ignorant enough to assume Yzerman is going for the Cup with these signings. Chiarot, Holl, Gustafsson and Petry's deals are up in the next two seasons, right around the time guys like ASP should be knocking on the door, or other potential defensive prospects. And that doesnt take into consideration if someone becomes available that Yzerman feels will take them to the next step in a few years. The deals for Copp/Compher/Tarasenko will be up within the timeframe that guys like Danielson or MBN or Lombardi or whoever else should be knocking on the door.

Or he could stop signing crappy players and weaponize the cap, give a chance to prospects, try to find long term fit, etc. I don't buy that crap that making bad signing has no effect on the future of the team. If it wasn't Yzerman you would not be appealing to authority nearly as much