Detroit Redwings Downfall

[GhostfaceWu]

The biggest mistake has been not getting an adequate 2nd line center. Can't have copp as that when he's a decent third line center at best

 

[BB88]

Maybe Wings bottom out and draft top 3 this upcoming draft and get their franchise player. Would that solve your questions?

I'm personally not worried about it, but I would like to see Yzerman add some more franchise top tier talent. Better to have too many than not enough!

Well honestly what’s exciting in that rebuild?

It’s year 6 and they are still stuck in the same place& we are somehow supposed to buy into the magic of their rebuild

 

[WarriorofTime]

Look around the league and you'll nobody drafted good in 2019 and 2020 based on your standards. They were weak drafts. Thankfully Yzerman OWNED IT in the 1st round. That's all you can ask for when no significant talent came out of those drafts.

From 2019 Draft

32 players have played at least 100 games
39 players have played at least 80 games
44 players have played at least 60 games
54 players have played at least 40 games
60 players have played at least 25 games

From 2020 Draft

28 players have played at least 100 games
30 players have played at least 80 games
33 players have played at least 60 games
39 players have played at least 40 games
43 players have played at least 25 games

 

[Dotter]

From 2019 Draft

32 players have played at least 100 games
39 players have played at least 80 games
44 players have played at least 60 games
54 players have played at least 40 games
60 players have played at least 25 games

From 2020 Draft

28 players have played at least 100 games
30 players have played at least 80 games
33 players have played at least 60 games
39 players have played at least 40 games
43 players have played at least 25 games

Weak.

Only 7 have a .5 PPG or better and all but one of those were drafted outside the 1st round.

Try again.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Weak.

Only 7 have a .5 PPG or better and all but one of those were drafted outside the 1st round.

Try again.

I don't need to "try again". I already refuted you.

 

[Dotter]

I don't need to "try again". I already refuted you.

And failed.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And failed.

No, you just repeatedly move the goal posts throughout the thread as a way to deal with your cognitive dissonance about Yzerman's performance as Red Wings GM.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Those 4 teams have dominated the Atlantic the last 10 years& have Detroits number

But keep living in your fantasy land and watch Detroit go nowhere. Better for the rest of the teams, atleast 1 team you don’t have to take seriously

It was a simple question that you couldn’t answer, so clearly your point doesn’t stand.

You simply don’t need a top 10 forward in the NHL to be a good team.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I don't need to "try again". I already refuted you.

You didn’t refute anything.

One single player from those drafts out of the 1st round is any kind of decent or would make any kind of impact on where the Wings are today.

As of now, it’s bad drafts for everyone

In the 1st round, Yzerman got the best player available to him in the draft.

 

[SirloinUB]

From 2019 Draft

32 players have played at least 100 games
39 players have played at least 80 games
44 players have played at least 60 games
54 players have played at least 40 games
60 players have played at least 25 games

From 2020 Draft

28 players have played at least 100 games
30 players have played at least 80 games
33 players have played at least 60 games
39 players have played at least 40 games
43 players have played at least 25 games

It is important to understand different prospects in different organizations get opportunities at different times because those organizations have different philosophies.

With that said, you point out 27% of draft picks have played 25 games from that 2019 draft

Similarly, yzerman, has had 27% of his picks from that very same class have played games.


You point out 19% of pucks from 2020 have played 25 games. Yzerman is at 16% of played games.

So from a quantity perspective yzerman is about league average while hitting his 1st rounders out of the par despite only having poor lottery luck.

Thanks for “refuting” that yzerman is a bad GM.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

I tried mentioning this to several posters acting like the entire fanbase is saying these things when it's really 1-3 posters they're arguing with. But I think being able to think our entire fanbase is delusional based off one post someone reads is just too fun of an opportunity to pass up for many in this thread

You're right. Most Wings fans are reasonable, or at least optimistic in a way that's understandable. It's just really two particular posters whose Yzermania is so advanced it should probably be studied in a clinical setting, and they make the fanbase look dumber than it is.

It's probably why this thread has gone on so long. There's plenty of other teams stuck in the basement like the Wings, but nobody's out here arguing Pat Verbeek and Kyle Davidson are faultless geniuses.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

You didn’t refute anything.

One single player from those drafts out of the 1st round is any kind of decent or would make any kind of impact on where the Wings are today.

That's just plainly not true. I can count a dozen players from those two drafts outside the 1st round who are already solid, established NHLers, mostly on better teams than the Wings.

 

[BB88]

It was a simple question that you couldn’t answer, so clearly your point doesn’t stand.

You simply don’t need a top 10 forward in the NHL to be a good team.

So you’re trying to build a good team not a contender got it

You see my point has constantly been the goal of a rebuild should be building a contender..

Barkov- Tkachuk/Reinhart
Point- Kucherov/Stamkos
Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Eichel- Stone
Toews- Kane
Etc

You want to try again how you don’t need a franchise forward?

Or how all the best teams in the Atlantic have had multiple franchise forwards on their roster. But again nope you don’t need a franchise forward

& yes for example a major reason for Carolina falling short has been due to lacking that offensive game breaker

Detroit fans and their fantasy lands

 

[RedHawkDown]

So you’re trying to build a good team not a contender got it

You see my point has constantly been the goal of a rebuild should be building a contender..

Barkov- Tkachuk/Reinhart
Point- Kucherov/Stamkos
Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Eichel- Stone
Toews- Kane
Etc

You want to try again how you don’t need a franchise forward?

Or how all the best teams in the Atlantic have had multiple franchise forwards on their roster. But again nope you don’t need a franchise forward

& yes for example a major reason for Carolina falling short has been due to lacking that offensive game breaker

Detroit fans and their fantasy lands

Kuznetsov? Toews? Stone? Raymond has out scored stones career high already and the other two aren’t exactly juggernauts

It’s easier to win with a franchise forward but it’s not mandatory, as Vegas and St. Louis have shown

The wings didn’t have the draft luck to draft one so they’ll have to try to build without it. Tf else is the point of this thread? We just shitting on Detroit because they dropped from 1st to 4th in 2020 and never moved up in the lottery?

 

[nbwingsfan]

So you’re trying to build a good team not a contender got it

You see my point has constantly been the goal of a rebuild should be building a contender..

Barkov- Tkachuk/Reinhart
Point- Kucherov/Stamkos
Ovy- Kuz
Crosby- Malkin
Eichel- Stone
Toews- Kane
Etc

You want to try again how you don’t need a franchise forward?

Or how all the best teams in the Atlantic have had multiple franchise forwards on their roster. But again nope you don’t need a franchise forward

& yes for example a major reason for Carolina falling short has been due to lacking that offensive game breaker

Detroit fans and their fantasy lands

So I’ll ask for the third time now. Should all the teams I had listed tear it down and rebuild since they’re missing two franchise forwards?

On that same note, should Boston tear it down since they only have Pastrnak? It’s clearly hopeless for them, right?

Also hilarious thinking Raymond and Larkin aren’t on the level of Kuznetsov

 

[WarriorofTime]

You didn’t refute anything.

No, just saying "bad drafts" is a copout. There are young players all over the League developing. Players that can establish themselves into NHL roles at this point still have a chance to be impact players, and certainly can and are depth players. The key to these later picks is you have to hit a few homeruns, get the later guys that should have been 1st rounders. Alexei Protas went in the 3rd round, he has 14 goals this season. These are the picks you need in a rebuild. This is what Yzerman did well in Tampa and that hasn't translated to Detroit.

 

[nbwingsfan]

No, just saying "bad drafts" is a copout. There are young players all over the League developing. Players that can establish themselves into NHL roles at this point still have a chance to be impact players, and certainly can and are depth players. The key to these later picks is you have to hit a few homeruns, get the later guys that should have been 1st rounders. Alexei Protas went in the 3rd round, he has 14 goals this season. These are the picks you need in a rebuild. This is what Yzerman did well in Tampa and that hasn't translated to Detroit.

Yes there Protoss. The one player.

Now please name the other players from the 2019 and 2020 draft who would be making an impact to bring the Wings back into the playoffs.

I’ll wait.

That's just plainly not true. I can count a dozen players from those two drafts outside the 1st round who are already solid, established NHLers, mostly on better teams than the Wings.

Please do share the “dozen” impact players from the 2019/2020 drafts that would be making a meaningful impact on the Wings.

I see Protas (arguably) and….. ???

30pt guys and bottom pairing D are what we already have.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yes there Protoss. The one player.

Now please name the other players from the 2019 and 2020 draft who would be making an impact to bring the Wings back into the playoffs.

I’ll wait.

By that logic, Seider and Raymond are not notable picks because they did not "bring the Wings back into the playoffs" throughout their career to date. That doesn't make much sense.

 

[RedHawkDown]

By that logic, Seider and Raymond are not notable picks because they did not "bring the Wings back into the playoffs" throughout their career to date. That doesn't make much sense.

That’s not the logic and you know it lol. There are few significant impact players beyond the 1st or 2nd round from those drafts and you know that. Protas is one of the only ones. Faber, Peterka are others. I agree later round drafting could have been better, but considering the 1st round drafting has been as good as we could hope for, I wouldn’t say drafting is the issue.

Pro scouting is.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That’s not the logic and you know it lol. There are few significant impact players beyond the 1st round from those drafts and you know that. Protas is one of the only ones.

What is the logic? That every young guy in the NHL not picked by the Wings is terrible and will always be terrible? That the post-1st round picks didn't actually leave anything to be desired? Because that's insane. In the 2019 2nd round, there are eight players that haven't played at all in the NHL. Two of them were picked by the Wings. The third Wings pick, has played 16 NHL games, which is fewer than 18 other 2nd round picks from the same draft. So to recap, three 2nd rounders, the best performer has played the 19th most NHL games of any 2nd rounder, the other two have played zero games. The takeaway is "well I guess the draft just sucked because if good players were there, Yzerman would have picked them", or are you willing to give any inch here?

 

[saska sault]

Like a crack head checking the ash trays at the local mall for anything for free, I find myself here daily to read the takes of non-Wing's fans.

 

[ewfwgfwahbger]

Montreal had their strongest start of the year against Detroit on Friday. 9 shots. 3 one timers at the start in like 2-3 minutes. 1 goal.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

Please do share the “dozen” impact players from the 2019/2020 drafts that would be making a meaningful impact on the Wings.

I see Protas (arguably) and….. ???

30pt guys and bottom pairing D are what we already have

You must not have looked long.

Protad of course is doing great. Faber is the #1 Dman on one of the best teams in the West. Vlasic has done very well in a tough situation in Chicago. Peterka and Macelli already have 50+ point seasons under their belt. Laferriere and Cuylle have been great this year, and are pacing for around 60 pts. Same for Voronkov. Dorofeyev is pacing for 30 goals. Kotchetkov is already an NHL goalie. And that's ignoring guys I haven't seen (like Andrae) and guys that are doing well in more limited roles (Evangelista, Pinto, Spence, Kastelic, Lohrei...)

Only one good player outside the first round? Come on. The Wings lack talent at every position; they could have used any of those guys. Yet despite stockpiling picks in the 2nd-4th rounds for those 2 drafts, the guys they picked after the 1st have yet to show NHL potential. It's not the end of the world, but it's absurd to pretend nobody good came out of those drafts just because Yzerman didn't find them.

 

[Dotter]

Alexei Protas went in the 3rd round, he has 14 goals this season. These are the picks you need in a rebuild. This is what Yzerman did well in Tampa and that hasn't translated to Detroit.

If Protas is your example of game breaker, then that gives me hope Kasper eventually fills that role by the same age as Protas. Kasper is producing at the same rate or better as Protus at 20, all the while looking like the better player at a 200-foot game.

Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[LeighDx59]

The difference is Rangers fans and Sabres fans know where their teams are at. They aren't in abject delusion like Wings fans are so they don't keep trying to debate that "everything's great"

So now fans of opposing teams are not only telling Wings fans that their prospects arent going to turn into anything, but theyre also telling Wings fan how theyre feeling too? Hilarious.

Most rational Wings fans know where theyre at. They knew this team was going to take a step back with the loss of Walman/Ghost/Perron. I dont think we were expecting guys like Kane and Compher to take massive steps back to start the season. Yzerman preached patience, which is something alot more Red Wings fans have than everyone else. While the fanbases of the 31 other teams are foaming at the mouth damn near every game just to say how overrated Yzerman is and saying how he should've done this or done that, bitching that Detroit's rebuild should be over without getting any lottery help while at the same time bitching that Yzerman isnt doing enough to tank too somehow? A bunch of obsessed armchair GM's on this site are as delusional as they claim us Wings fans are. The fact that Detroit gets picked apart constantly despite everyone knowing where theyre at and what they need, compared to the Rangers (who actually got draft lottery help and should be at the top of the conference) and the Sabres who have had a bunch of lottery help multiple times throughout the past 13 years of rebuilding, is also hilarious.

Most Wings fans have been patient. I dont see us claiming that all of these signings are great, in fact most of us know that the players signed werent the best when the signings were made, were just not ignorant enough to assume Yzerman is going for the Cup with these signings. Chiarot, Holl, Gustafsson and Petry's deals are up in the next two seasons, right around the time guys like ASP should be knocking on the door, or other potential defensive prospects. And that doesnt take into consideration if someone becomes available that Yzerman feels will take them to the next step in a few years. The deals for Copp/Compher/Tarasenko will be up within the timeframe that guys like Danielson or MBN or Lombardi or whoever else should be knocking on the door.