Detroit Redwings Downfall

[norrisnick]

I think you and @FriendlyGhost92 need this reminder:

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You can tout the genius of Steve Yzerman when his team isn't a near-perpetual bottom ten club. That day is not today and no amount of coping in this thread can fix that, so sorry. See you back here in 2027 with what I assume will be a boat load of fresh new excuses.

Now do 2019 and the U25 crop of players then and now...

 

[ShakenNotStirred]

It will be six years as of April unless you think he's being fired before then... which is not likely if the org views him with the same red-tinted glasses his fans here do.

In that time, do you think any of Antti Tuomisto, Robert Mastrosimone, Albert Johansson, William Wallinder, Theodor Niederbach or Cross Hanas suddenly become NHL difference makers? Oh, and never mind that's just his first two years of throwing non-top ten picks into a wood chipper. Stevie is giving Ken Holland a run for his money with that kind of drafting, and I don't mean that in a nice way.

What drafting are you talking about? The zadina's, Anthanisiu's and manthas or the seiders, Raymond's and Kaspers?

The biggest difference between the two gms is Steve won't be paying out the contracts old Kenny does, see abdelkador and nurse as examples.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The biggest difference between the two gms is Steve won't be paying out the contracts old Kenny does, see abdelkador and nurse as examples.

Stevie Y no longer has to pay out the Walman contract, took care of that by sending a second round pick with it.

 

[norrisnick]

Stevie Y no longer has to pay out the Walman contract, took care of that by sending a second round pick with it.

Which apparently are worthless as picks anyway, so it cost nothing.

 

[Shane Diesel]

You are contradicted in literally the first headline of the first hockey article you posted

You didn't read anything I posted, did you?

 

[Nogatco Rd]

You didn't read anything I posted, did you?

bruh YOU didn't read what you posted.. the first hockey article you posted is behind a paywall

 

[Shane Diesel]

bruh YOU didn't read what you posted.. the first hockey article you posted is behind a paywall

The other three aren't. What's the excuse there?

 

[Nogatco Rd]

The other three aren't. What's the excuse there?

so just to be clear.. you didn't read the ESPN article?

and i pretty much nailed it when I said people who quote articles instead of actually responding rarely even read the articles themselves?

 

[Shane Diesel]

so just to be clear.. you didn't read the ESPN article?

and i pretty much nailed it when I said people who quote articles instead of actually responding rarely even read the articles themselves?

I have ESPN+ so I have read it.

I will give you this, you are a master of deflection when it comes to the topic at hand.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

I have ESPN+ so I have read it.

I will give you this, you are a master of deflection when it comes to the topic at hand.

I didn't make it past the headline when I realized it contradicted your point that drafting is "almost entirely about luck"

 

[Shane Diesel]

I didn't make it past the headline when I realized it contradicted your point that drafting is "almost entirely about luck"

That article, nor the others, contradict my point.

But how would you know? You didn't read them.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Petry and Chiarot 2nd pair is not good enough. Holl isn’t very good. The defence overall is just not good enough. They don’t take many shots on goal, partly because their D struggles to get the puck out to the forwards. Not something you can easily fix at this stage in the season. They needed a good Dman in the offseason. Walman move was a head-scratcher. Seider could be playing better.

There’s depth up front but not enough guys who actually make plays and create scoring chances. Tarasenko and Kane are getting old. They’re one of the lowest scoring teams in the league at 5 on 5. Outside of the top line there’s no offensive to speak of. Compher and Copp don’t look like 5M $ players.

The PP is on fire but they just can’t score at 5 on 5 and they don’t create enough chances. The PK is just horrendous.

Goaltending has been really good and likely the only reason they’re still close to .500 … Not sure I had Cam Talbot putting up those numbers on my bingo card but he’s been keeping them in games.

Can’t imagine they make the playoffs this year. There’s just a lot missing on the roster. There’s holes on D and not enough on forward. The goalies are unlikely to sustain this level of play. I feel like they have regressed from last season. This is a one line team.

Wushu taking about willis

Red Wings quietly have the deepest defensive group in the league

I can't really find any other team aside from Vegas and Boston that has a more well rounded, balanced and potential threat line up than the Wings. Gostisbehere, Petry, Määttä, that's 90-100 points alone from #4-6 guys. I don't think there's any team with that kind of scoring punch from depth...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Nogatco Rd]

That article, nor the others, don't contradict my point.

But how would you know? You didn't read them.

Your first article doesn't support your point that "drafting is almost entirely luck" at all.

~15 paragraphs that can be summed up as "drafting pro bowl players is hard" "you usually find them in the first round, but sometimes you find them in later rounds."

Again, supports my contention that you merely googled for articles you thought would support your opinion, without actually reading them.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Now do 2019 and the U25 crop of players then and now...

Oh look, this deflection again. If Yzerman has built this treasure chest of prospects, why has he kept them hidden away?

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

I like how you deflect to ranting with no point when you can't actually argue the topic.

I did address the topic. You continuously deflected because you can't address my points, instead pivoting to your blind faith.

Didn't address the point that Yzerman has been saying since day 1 build through the draft, and he's not looking to simply be a playoff team.

Building 100% through the draft doesn't work.

Didn't address the point that Bertuzzi was an obvious trade as Yzerman wasn't going to give him a long term contract. (He should've though, right? Tyler is playing so great these days)

Bertuzzi was looking for a new contract from the Red Wings. Yzerman didn't give it to him because of his playing style and proneness to injury.

Didn't address the point that this team even let Jeff Blashill play out his contract after multiple absurd 9-10 goal blowouts, but you're somehow shocked that they haven't fired Lalonde yet.

Actually, I did. I said it was a mistake for Yzerman to have held on to Blashill for as long as he did, and that it's a mistake now that he's holding on to an equally bad coach in Lalonde.

Nah. You just do this whiney ranting because you can't actually stay on topic.

Again, I addressed each topic specifically. You deflected, again, because you have a bizarre 100% blind faith in Yzerman.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

SY doesn’t care about HF Boards approval or expected timeline.

While I'm sure he doesn't care about the views of a message board, if he truly doesn't care about his paying customers getting a return on their investment, then there's a problem.

There comes a time when selling hope in the future isn't good enough anymore. Yzerman needs to be on the hot seat if Detroit misses the playoffs for a 6th straight year under his tutelage.

He has a clear vision and plan that anyone can see if they are willing to look or listen to those that have explained.

Enough of this "vision" stuff - there's absolutely no guarantee that any of these prospects will pan out. If they end up like Filip Zadina, then what?

Most people care about the present. If his vision is to not be competitive for another few years, then why should fans continue spending money on this lousy product?

As of now that plan is on track.

It is? Based on what? That they're trending toward missing the playoffs for a sixth straight season? That's unacceptable.

In what other job do you get this long to produce meaningful results?

Do you think a salesperson would be allowed to miss their yearly quotas for six straight years and justify it constantly with "I'm building toward it, just wait 2-3 more years and then I will"?

Would a surgeon get to spend his first year learning on the job and constantly have patients die on the operating table but excuse it by saying he's building toward being a great one and he'll get going a few years from now?

This is a results-oriented business. He's not gotten the results that I think most of us thought would have already happened by now (you know, a playoff spot in a Leauge where literally half the teams make it in) when he returned in 2019 with the reputation of being the game's best GM.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

We've been waiting 6 years for the vast majority of his selections even though he's only been GM for five?

Is this a new form of math I haven't heard about or do you just suck ass at trolling?

5 vs 6 years, hardly a difference. Yzerman. Excellent player, one of many not so effective in management.

 

[deca guard]

Steve has disappointed me. He’s playing an extremely long game.


Too long, actually.

how would you have shortened it ? by over paying n over terming risky ufa that wouldnt have brought in a cup anyway while costing long term cap plus weakend detroits draft position by improving record a littlle bit ? ufa that would be beyond prime when redwings kids were ready ? hes attempting to build redwings up to become long term cup runners , as opposed to your outlook that he should of spent future assets to just get in only to get quickly kicked out . you cry baby fans arent gonna rattle yzergods cage , hes building tampa bay north ''the red lightning''

 

[sxvnert]

It's time the wings tank for a few top draft picks. Enough with the rebuild on the fly bullshit, it failed miserably.

 

[TKB]

While I'm sure he doesn't care about the views of a message board, if he truly doesn't care about his paying customers getting a return on their investment, then there's a problem.

There comes a time when selling hope in the future isn't good enough anymore. Yzerman needs to be on the hot seat if Detroit misses the playoffs for a 6th straight year under his tutelage.



Enough of this "vision" stuff - there's absolutely no guarantee that any of these prospects will pan out. If they end up like Filip Zadina, then what?

Most people care about the present. If his vision is to not be competitive for another few years, then why should fans continue spending money on this lousy product?



It is? Based on what? That they're trending toward missing the playoffs for a sixth straight season? That's unacceptable.

In what other job do you get this long to produce meaningful results?

Do you think a salesperson would be allowed to miss their yearly quotas for six straight years and justify it constantly with "I'm building toward it, just wait 2-3 more years and then I will"?

Would a surgeon get to spend his first year learning on the job and constantly have patients die on the operating table but excuse it by saying he's building toward being a great one and he'll get going a few years from now?

This is a results-oriented business. He's not gotten the results that I think most of us thought would have already happened by now (you know, a playoff spot in a Leauge where literally half the teams make it in) when he returned in 2019 with the reputation of being the game's best GM.

Where did Yzerman ever indicate that his goal was to simply make the playoffs?

Given your (poor) analogies, I can only assume you think SY should be fired, so tell us what should Jimmy D and Chris I do now? In your opinion who should they hire and what should the plan be?

 

[deca guard]

Here's the rub from my perspective. In no way do I think it should be acceptable for the Red Wings to pick between 8th and 15th after this season. They've picked between 8th and 15th for three consecutive seasons. Not good enough to make the postseason, not good enough to pick high. If they do end up picking between 8th and 15th, then a very real question should be "well then why the heck were they only picking 8th back in 2022 and not making a higher selection?" In no way can you convince me that a team needs to "mid out" for four consecutive seasons as a necessary and proper step of the rebuild.

So that's the issue we run into, on the one hand, people want to praise the Red Wings for raising from the basement of the League to the... not basement. However, that rise has not actually correlated with anything meaningful. They've been stuck in the mud, spinning their wheels while "waiting for the kids" because "it's a long rebuild". It seems some want it both ways. If it's a long, slow rebuild, you may as well have gone all in on bottoming out for more than just a season and really positioned yourself for better picks. Had they picked higher the last few years, with the rest of their prospect pool through excess picks and the like, they'd be in a much better position today.

I don't think in good faith the veteran free agent signings can be justified with "building a culture" or "learning how to compete". Those are junk words used to indicate a fear of tanking because ownership or ego gets in the way. That stuff doesn't take four seasons. Larkin was on one of the worst teams ever back then, is he forever damaged goods because he didn't "learn how to win"? But he himself was extended long-term presumably to win. Either those free agents were supposed to get Detroit into the playoffs and were bad signings, or they were part of a foolish strategy to intentionally nerf the value of the players you can select in Consecutive Non-Playoff seasons. Framing it as though everything was done with the exact intent of what it produced would just make Yzerman's whole "plan" look really stupid. I'd rather a GM make some small mistakes than have a foolish plan to begin with.

you just typed up a whole bunch of non sense after i described in detail thee exact proper way to build the strongest depth chart possible . why you think its your business to tell a gm he cant feather the gas peddle and remain in drafting / rebuild mode a while ive no idea . go ahead and call it tanking like its wrong when in reality its obviously the most logical way to build a contender ! mean while im enjoying the heck out of yzergod owning the draft floor and stacking up blue chips , then seein the chippers like edvinsson n kasper start their careers while further down the depth chart guys like augustine-lombardi-buchelnikov-finnie are raising hell while big hoss cossa rockin the ahl . real hockey fans of the red wings see nothing wrong with yzermans work AT ALL but are instead COMPLETELY IMPRESSED and are enjoying all these young blue chip monsters taking their first baby steps ! i think theres a whole bunch of jealous opponant fans in this thread

 

[TKB]

5 vs 6 years, hardly a difference. Yzerman. Excellent player, one of many not so effective in management.

You don't think he was effective in Tampa Bay?

 

[deca guard]

many fans on their high horse having this anti tanking code . mean while ive a code that throws that out the window = its the gms code to do the best job possible for his fans n city , and thats EXACTLY what yzergod is doing right now as hes laying the building blocks of a long term cup runner . a way better strategy than rushing to get into playoffs only to not succeed , yzermans playing to succeed for a decade

 

[norrisnick]

Oh look, this deflection again. If Yzerman has built this treasure chest of prospects, why has he kept them hidden away?

Because he specifically dislikes you and would rather play shitty vets until you stop paying for the product.

 

[deca guard]

While I'm sure he doesn't care about the views of a message board, if he truly doesn't care about his paying customers getting a return on their investment, then there's a problem.

There comes a time when selling hope in the future isn't good enough anymore. Yzerman needs to be on the hot seat if Detroit misses the playoffs for a 6th straight year under his tutelage.



Enough of this "vision" stuff - there's absolutely no guarantee that any of these prospects will pan out. If they end up like Filip Zadina, then what?

Most people care about the present. If his vision is to not be competitive for another few years, then why should fans continue spending money on this lousy product?



It is? Based on what? That they're trending toward missing the playoffs for a sixth straight season? That's unacceptable.

In what other job do you get this long to produce meaningful results?

Do you think a salesperson would be allowed to miss their yearly quotas for six straight years and justify it constantly with "I'm building toward it, just wait 2-3 more years and then I will"?

Would a surgeon get to spend his first year learning on the job and constantly have patients die on the operating table but excuse it by saying he's building toward being a great one and he'll get going a few years from now?

This is a results-oriented business. He's not gotten the results that I think most of us thought would have already happened by now (you know, a playoff spot in a Leauge where literally half the teams make it in) when he returned in 2019 with the reputation of being the game's best GM.

you talk so much illogical non sense its laughable . how the hell you compare gm'ing an nhl team to being a surgeon is the most ridiculous analogy of earths history