Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Snuggs]

I wonder if Yzerman's got the stones to try and pull off a Larkin trade to the Dallas Stars involving Wyatt Johnston coming the other way.

He'll prolly just get by again trading guys like Lyon/Fishcer and draft, trade away Holl+2nd round pick, sign some crappy d-man like Forbot. Save his job for another year.

I mean honestly as a Red Wings fan, what I personally saw this offseason was just complete non-sense. NOT one moment since July 1st did I personally think RedWings are playoff ready or even growing as a team this year. IT's a huge step backwards. Huge step. Almost every move this offseason was bad outside of Talbot. Literally almost every move.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Judging the rebuild on a game-to-game basis is idiotic. Should be a new thread to discuss the short-term problems that can be bumped after each win/loss. Even through a rough stretch here the long-term outlook is looking good and should be disconnected to the performance of Jeff Petry, Andrew Copp, Alex Lyon and Ben Chiarot.

 

[cvaicunas]

I’m not buying that either. Redwings drafted in the top 10, 7 consecutive seasons. This wasn’t a team that hit rock bottom for 2 seasons and got screwed. Yes no lotto luck, but got Raymond with 4ov one of the best production players from that draft and could have easily drafted Hughes right out of their own backyard with the 6ov. This is clearly on managements draft selection and roster building.

I personally think Redwings would be worse had they drafted 1ov in 2020 as Raymond since his draft has been better than Lafreniere who was the NHL consensus #1. Even if you don’t agree with that I’d have a hard time being convinced swapping them does anything for Detroit even if someone believes Lafreniere moving forward is better.

Wings were rumored to favor Stuzle that draft year

 

[cvaicunas]

It was just a low quality rebuild. Stevie Y built a team that looks like it will probably peak as a playoff bubble team.

I don't understand how these takes are so prevalent when the vast majority of drafted players have yet to hit the NHL. The current roster is uninspiring yes, but the rebuild is not over. Acting like the current roster is the one meant to compete for a Stanley Cup is disingenuous at best.

 

[PredsV82]

Gotta admit I saw this thread title and was hoping for a funny dubbed Hitler video.


For the unititated:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/hitlers-downfall-parodies

 

[Fatass]

I don't understand how these takes are so prevalent when the vast majority of drafted players have yet to hit the NHL. The current roster is uninspiring yes, but the rebuild is not over. Acting like the current roster is the one meant to compete for a Stanley Cup is disingenuous at best.

Star players are the difference makers. Yzerman has yet to draft or trade for these level guys.

 

[cvaicunas]

Oiler fan here, agreeing with this Leaf fan.


You guys are trying to do what we did. Rebuild with Kadri/Kessel/JVR Hall/RNH/Eberle
You need to build around McDavid/Draisaitl or Matthews/Marner level talent.

So the only way to properly rebuild a franchise is to draft, in the case of two of these players, is to draft generational talent? Neither the Leafs or Oilers have won anything, so at this point neither franchise has actually truly succeeded in their rebuild.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

Honestly, one of my co-workers is a hardcore wings fan and I was almost sure they’re stacked enough to make the next step. Sometimes the chemistry just ain’t there, it def isn’t a devoid of talent. Not sure what the f***, down seasons?

 

[cvaicunas]

So, Yzerman was a great player.... that means nothing. Gretzky was a terrible coach. Roy failed before in the NHL and is now slowly building back his rep in Long Island, although the Isles sit out of the playoffs picture. Nieuwendyk failed as a GM. I don't see Lemieux, Orr, Hull, Potvin, Bourque, Fedorov, Selanne, Lidstrom etc. running teams. Management is different from playing. Arguably the 3'best GMs in the game right now, Zito, Nill, and Allvin, are relative nobodies in the NHL players' archive.

Ok, the Red Wings have a much, much better history than the Panthers....again irrelevant. It doesn't matter what team you root for...the proven best way to build a contender is to tank for multiple years and acquire superstars. This isn't 2002 anymore. There's a salary cap.

Lol Yzerman didn't draft too good of talent....what he did was sign mediocre FAs and make trades that have kept the Wings from bottoming out. I know what's coming up through their pipeline, I follow prospects closely.

Montreal started their rebuild after Detroit, and theirs already looks better. Rangers started their rebuild at the same time as Detroit, and they are far ahead of them now.

Yes, as a Panthers fan I know what a failed rebuild looks like... we've had a couple. There are lots of rebuilds going on in the NHL right now and not all will work out. I think Detroit is one of those.

Other than using the word "rebuild," the actual circumstances between the Rangers and Wings could not be more different.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I don't understand how these takes are so prevalent when the vast majority of drafted players have yet to hit the NHL. The current roster is uninspiring yes, but the rebuild is not over. Acting like the current roster is the one meant to compete for a Stanley Cup is disingenuous at best.

Aren't Detroits highest drafted players during the rebuild playing right now in Detroit?

Every single franchise, all of them, have drafted prospects that they think and hope will be good but who are currently not playing in the NHL...who cares

 

[SirKillalot]

What Holland rebuild? He had a mandate to keep the team competitive. He did that until it was no longer possible and then traded UFAs and hoarded picks while not tying the team to any bad long term contracts.

He left Yzerman in a great position with tonnes of picks and a good, young first line center.

It's perfectly fine to argue that Holland's goal was to keep the team in the playoffs. Last year in the playoffs was 2016.

This was the team prior to Yzerman taking over:
Detroit salary cap 2019

In no way shape or form was the team in a state of having a ton of picks from Holland. Some yes, some were also used before Yzerman took over. Which in general its one of the two big critiques in Holland's tenure with the Wings. The ending and trading too many times future for not impactful enough veterans.
Which of them Joe Veleno who got drafted from Holland in that specific period of time has turned into a player who is with the team.

More importantly when you look at that team, there wasn't many players with value to trade away, most were hindering contracts or meh role players. Exactly why you see there is few trades in Yzerman's first season, only one "significant" trade which was Athanasiou to Oilers and Holland. They also got Mike Green for scraps as he wasn't as good anymore.

After that after a year Yzerman got a 2nd to acquire Marc Staal as capdump from the Rangers and after almost two seasons prior to trade deadline was the first major trade sending Anthony Mantha to the Capitals. Then later on Bertuzzi and Hronek. Which you could say is of course from Holland's time, but it took three and a half years for them to get to a solid value of trade.

Which is also why this rebuild needs to be given time so that such Yzerman related picks gets the time to develop and get to that age of contribution as well. As then it became clear that this process will take awhile thus those three were traded to get picks that would fit the timeline, also some wasn't seen as a player type that they wanted to build on in their team.

You can check trade history here:
Red Wings Trade History

Draft history here:
Red Wings draft history

 

[cvaicunas]

Aren't Detroits highest drafted players during the rebuild playing right now in Detroit?

Every single franchise, all of them, have drafted prospects that they think and hope will be good but who are currently not playing in the NHL...who cares

Well Detroit has not been using their high draft picks in trades to improve the roster, so I think it's fair to expect one needs to see how those picks pan out to truly access the rebuild. It's clear their intention is to build through the draft, hence the increased importance on said draft picks filling out the team's core. This is not a cup contender drafting in the back end of rounds, hoping they draft a complimentary player for their established core.

 

[Dotter]

What Holland rebuild? He had a mandate to keep the team competitive. He did that until it was no longer possible and then traded UFAs and hoarded picks while not tying the team to any bad long term contracts.

He left Yzerman in a great position with tonnes of picks and a good, young first line center.

What exactly had Yzerman added in 6 years outside of drafting/draft picks? Debrincat?

Stevie hasn't done much to put his stamp on. The team.

I can't tell if you are trying to play coy, trolling or just plain clueless. I am going to assume you are clueless and need to be educated. So I am willing to take 5 minutes out of my day to help educate you:

1). Holland started rebuilding in 2017 and 2018. That is evident by how many multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks he acquired. He Drafted 9th and 6th overall respectfully - both are busts. Review this link to help you.

2). Yzerman put a HUGE stamp on this team by not just trading most of the the team, new coach, and drafting some of the best players in their respective drafts: Seider and Raymond. Yzerman was HIGHLY criticized for drafting Seider 6th overall.

3). What has Yzerman done in the past 6 years?

• A). Increased the point totals incrementally each season. Missed the playoffs by 0 points last season.
• B). Built up from last place (Holland era) to one of the top prospect pools in the league.
• C). Just signed his core to a sweet long term deal for under $25 million per season; Raymond, Seider, and Larkin all locked up!

I hope you aren't trolling because I just took time out of my day to spell it out so easy to understand that an infant could comprehend.

 

[cvaicunas]

Star players are the difference makers. Yzerman has yet to draft or trade for these level guys.

Cossa perhaps? ASP, who is setting records in the SHL? Seider? Edvinsson? Is everyone on this site an amateur scout and I'm just figuring this out? They're all young, developing players. I think the general assumption is their drafted prospects didn't top out on any off season prospect rankings, so therefore their incapable becoming anything more than a middling NHLer?

 

[Fatass]

Cossa perhaps? ASP, who is setting records in the SHL? Seider? Edvinsson? Is everyone on this site an amateur scout and I'm just figuring this out? They're all young, developing players. I think the general assumption is their drafted prospects didn't top out on any off season prospect rankings, so therefore their incapable becoming anything more than a middling NHLer?

Proof is in the pudding. Wings are falling back again in their hope for the playoffs. At some point a rebuild needs to take a leap forward and that leap is dictated by the team’s top players. Yzerman had those guys in Tampa. He’s doesn’t even have one guy of that elite level in Detroit. Not too sure where he finds them. And as more of these younger guys come into their big dollar contracts, if the club continues to struggle they might need to give up on this rebuild and try again. All my opinion of course and could be totally wrong.

 

[Czechboy]

So the only way to properly rebuild a franchise is to draft, in the case of two of these players, is to draft generational talent? Neither the Leafs or Oilers have won anything, so at this point neither franchise has actually truly succeeded in their rebuild.

So if you don't win the cup, your rebuild is a failure? That's the standard?

 

[cvaicunas]

Proof is in the pudding. Wings are falling back again in their hope for the playoffs. At some point a rebuild needs to take a leap forward and that leap is dictated by the team’s top players. Yzerman had those guys in Tampa. He’s doesn’t even have one guy of that elite level in Detroit. Not too sure where he finds them. And as more of these younger guys come into their big dollar contracts, if the club continues to struggle they might need to give up on this rebuild and try again. All my opinion of course and could be totally wrong.

Yea it's completely in the realm of possibilities. I just not ready to write the whole thing off before we start seeing the fruits from the drafting. Would I rather watch last years' Wings, yup. This current iteration is far from inspiring. But, rationally, the season is not the end game, nor does it decide the end result of the rebuild.

 

[cvaicunas]

So if you don't win the cup, your rebuild is a failure? That's the standard?

What decides it? Stanley cup contention? First round playoff exits? Is winning not the end goal? If Toronto never wins a cup with this current core, how do you think they're going to be remembered by the fans? How about the Oilers? They made it to a cup final, great, are they're fans satisfied with the rebuild.

 

[Czechboy]

What decides it? Stanley cup contention? First round playoff exits? Is winning not the end goal? If Toronto never wins a cup with this current core, how do you think they're going to be remembered by the fans?

Of course winning the cup would be the ultimate goal. But years of making playoffs and winning rounds is also a big sign of success. Eg. I think NJ is very successfully rebuilt and I would think that even if they don't win a Cup. Rangers come to mind as well. My Oil were in Game 7 of the finals a couple of months ago... that doesn't feel like the same kind of failure as missing the playoffs for a decade.

 

[norrisnick]

Proof is in the pudding. Wings are falling back again in their hope for the playoffs. At some point a rebuild needs to take a leap forward and that leap is dictated by the team’s top players. Yzerman had those guys in Tampa. He’s doesn’t even have one guy of that elite level in Detroit. Not too sure where he finds them. And as more of these younger guys come into their big dollar contracts, if the club continues to struggle they might need to give up on this rebuild and try again. All my opinion of course and could be totally wrong.

Could?

Of course winning the cup would be the ultimate goal. But years of making playoffs and winning rounds is also a big sign of success. Eg. I think NJ is very successfully rebuilt and I would think that even if they don't win a Cup. Rangers come to mind as well. My Oil were in Game 7 of the finals a couple of months ago... that doesn't feel like the same kind of failure as missing the playoffs for a decade.

Believe me, that game 7 loss feels a hell of a lot worse.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

What decides it? Stanley cup contention? First round playoff exits? Is winning not the end goal? If Toronto never wins a cup with this current core, how do you think they're going to be remembered by the fans? How about the Oilers? They made it to a cup final, great, are they're fans satisfied with the rebuild.

I think there’s different levels of success. Obviously the ultimate goal is to win the Cup but making it to the SCF and losing to a top team in a tough series is also a success.
Toronto, right now, is mostly a disappointment because of their losing in the first round for multiple seasons. That perception would change with a deep run imo.

 

[VeteranPresence]

So the only way to properly rebuild a franchise is to draft, in the case of two of these players, is to draft generational talent? Neither the Leafs or Oilers have won anything, so at this point neither franchise has actually truly succeeded in their rebuild.

There are certainly other models/ways to win, but Stevie Y apparently has no knowledge of those either so enjoy missing the playoffs yet again and getting a mid pick I guess?

 

[SirKillalot]

What decides it? Stanley cup contention? First round playoff exits? Is winning not the end goal? If Toronto never wins a cup with this current core, how do you think they're going to be remembered by the fans? How about the Oilers? They made it to a cup final, great, are they're fans satisfied with the rebuild.

Of course winning the cup would be the ultimate goal. But years of making playoffs and winning rounds is also a big sign of success. Eg. I think NJ is very successfully rebuilt and I would think that even if they don't win a Cup. Rangers come to mind as well. My Oil were in Game 7 of the finals a couple of months ago... that doesn't feel like the same kind of failure as missing the playoffs for a decade.

To answer both, I believe a successful rebuild equates to building a contender. Of course really successful ends in one or multiple cups, but at the same time I think fans of the Sharks and Canucks would have to agree to that their rebuilds that made the teams of 2011 and 2016 finals after years of being good was a success. They were fun to watch for a long time, unfortunately they never got to the promised land, but can't really say it was unsuccessful from a rebuild point of view.

 

[cvaicunas]

Of course winning the cup would be the ultimate goal. But years of making playoffs and winning rounds is also a big sign of success. Eg. I think NJ is very successfully rebuilt and I would think that even if they don't win a Cup. Rangers come to mind as well. My Oil were in Game 7 of the finals a couple of months ago... that doesn't feel like the same kind of failure as missing the playoffs for a decade.

You're not wrong. Again, I just think more time is needed to let the results from Yzerman's drafts play out before we say this rebuild is failed. If the drafting proves to be incompetent, yea this rebuild is dead in the water. Last year provided some hope, but I for one never thought this roster was meant as anything more than a competitive place holder. Save Dcat, Yzerman has not really been moving picks for roster players. Let's see if they have something there, and let the roster be supplemented through trades. Florida just won, I don't think they win without Tkachuk

 

[Czechboy]

Could?


Believe me, that game 7 loss feels a hell of a lot worse.

Disagree.. the decade of darkness sucked. Being out by Xmas. Losing every trade. Shitty GM's. Signing mediocre players for big contracts becuase of 'character'. 1st round picks not panning out. For the Oilers we called it HOPE (Hall, Omark, Pajjarvi and Eberle) and HOPE didn't pan out at all. That was awful. I'll take playoff teams and winning rounds all day long over that.